The "Goals vs. Assists" thing...

[wetcoast]

Odd to make such a definitive and matter of fact statement when your position is an extreme minority one

Thread 'How good is Ovechkin league wide this season ?'

Apr 6, 2025

Currently, where does Ovechkin rank as a player?

Not all time. At this point in time, this day, this season.

Statistically he’s great. 2nd in goals/game, third in goals overall. 18th in points/game.

However just by the eye test he doesn’t look great. He doesn’t drive play. His skating is bad. His stick handling is nonexistent. On just the caps, there are probably 3 or 4 players who are more impactful. But the caps are the best team in the league so not every team has 3 players better than him.

But regardless, because he’s still the best shooter in the league, he is always one flick of...

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Poll is player not forward as well. If limit to just forward might just be you and like two other guys that would say not a top 50 forward.

Watch him play and look at everything do you really think Ovechkin was as objectively as possible a top 20,30 or what type of forward this year?

He most certainly wasn't a top 10 forward even if he was 3rd in goals.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Watch him play and look at everything do you really think Ovechkin was as objectively as possible a top 20,30 or what type of forward this year?

You can think whatever you want based on whatever criteria matters to you, but your position on this (as is the case with all things Ovechkin) is still a fringe one amongst hockey fans, so it's odd to speak definitively as though it's settled matter when saying something like that to make a point (indeed, it's as you said, the simplest way).

 

[wetcoast]

You can think whatever you want based on whatever criteria matters to you, but your position on this (as is the case with all things Ovechkin) is still a fringe one amongst hockey fans, so it's odd to speak definitively as though it's settled matter when saying something like that to make a point.

Because a lot of people are simply only looking at the stats and not doing a subjective evaluation?

Where did Ovi rank among forwards in the NHL for you last year ballpark?

It's closer to 50 than 3 for me.

 

[MadLuke]

As someone that just lived through Ovechkin wrath those playoff....

Maybe he get 90% offensive zone deployment, maybe he get boderline top 6 minutes now at even strength so it would be strange to call him Top 3 forward on his own team in some ways...

End of the day, all that said, found a way to score 4 goals in 5 games, the most of his team, he just has a great hockey sense where to go, when to go, how to shoot and a poise to do it and it work. There always a danger sense on the spine when you see is recognizable way to skate-look on the ice anytime the puck is in your zone.

He also still skate and bring nice energy from time to time despite his age, we are far away from some compiling type of part of a career.

On a bad team maybe that does not work, on a stacked contender.... that you can plug-in as a powerplay guy with second-third line minute easiest deployment without an issue because you do not need him to do more than that... working great so far and probably a bit of nightmare for the opposing coach... I need to plan for a first line and then for Ovechkin ?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Because a lot of people are simply only looking at the stats and not doing a subjective evaluation?

Where did Ovi rank among forwards in the NHL for you last year ballpark?

It's closer to 50 than 3 for me.

It may not be the prettiest stylistically and he may be reliant on *checks notes* Dylan Strome to carry the puck/pace of play at even strength, so I agree he's not "3" but when you score/produce like Ovechkin you take the good that comes with that awesome level of output well before you get to 50 forwards... I'd say top 30 player, top 20-25 forward for 2024-25.

 

[wetcoast]

It may not be the prettiest stylistically and he may be reliant on *checks notes* Dylan Strome to carry the puck/pace of play at even strength, so I agree he's not "3" but when you score/produce like Ovechkin you take the good that comes with that awesome level of output well before you get to 50 forwards... I'd say top 30 player, top 20-25 forward for 2024-25.

Fair enough we will agree to disagree here and my bet is that Capitals coach would disagree as well given Ovi's deployment in the playoffs in the offensive zone and MPG at ES especially.

Opportunist scorer but not binging much else to the table and there is no shame in that he is 39 but you would be leaving out much better players if you have him top 20-25 as a forward.

NHL Stats

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[Crosby2010]

To that example to a very gross simple level, if we look at goal their teams scored when the player were on the ice, Gretzky was on the ice for 30 more goals than Hull, coincidence that he had 30 more points ? Better teammate ? more ice time ? Or generating ~30 more goals of offense and points is a good proxy when you talk about points difference between 2 players scoring more than 100 ?

All I'm saying is that there comes a time when the points difference is too much to ignore regardless of the goal total of each of them. No doubt in my mind Gretzky had the better season in 1991.

 

[MadLuke]

All I'm saying is that there comes a time when the points difference is too much to ignore regardless of the goal total of each of them. No doubt in my mind Gretzky had the better season in 1991.

Yes for sure, my points I was trying to bring is that past a certain amount, maybe points tell it all anyway and the question become mute.

Like 30g-15 assist versus 15G-30Assists, maybe that has a lot of relevance, but between 2 above 120 points guy, a lot of their production were past getting points that any top 6 would have got so we are not sure to translate them into added team goals. That it become more and more diminishing return to try to break it down, specially when talking about a known play driver like Gretzky.

it would stop to be a general rules, say maybe 2023 RNH 104 points is not worth scoring 100 points on Montreal that year in actual goal added to the teams versus touching the puck often on a PP that has 2 of the best playmaker in the history of the sport, but that not because 37 goals was not a lot of goals.

 

[Johnny Engine]

It'd be interesting to know how unassisted goals actually break down in real life, as there are:
- great defensive plays that turn into individual efforts
- individual efforts that start with a simpler loose puck retrieval
- really bad turnovers to guys who just happen to be standing there
- empty net goals
- nothing plays that the goaltender botches
- credited goals, whether from an own goal, a thrown stick or what have you.

Curiosity got the better of me and I watched the last 25 unassisted goals that have happened this month.

2 of them were credited from own goals

For the acquisition of the puck:
11 were routine loose pucks, 7 involved a defensive play like blocked shot, won battle, or forced turnover, and 5 were on unforced turnovers. A good few of the loose pucks involved a defensive effort from a teammate who would not get credited for an assist.

12 of them involved some individual effort that improved the condition of the puck and 11 were an immediate shot on net.

6 were into an empty net, 4 were down to obviously bad goaltending, and 13 were reasonable looking shots that beat a goalie clean.

There were lots of combinations of the about, but only two of them I tagged "DEF IND" meaning a defensive effort, some puck carrying, and a good shot.

It's a mixed bag for sure.