The difference between a NHL fourth liner and an AHL first liner

[Mickey Marner]

Not much, both will likely play a similar amount of games in the NHL, they're just at different stages of their career trajectory.

 

[Beukeboom]

Generally a top player struggles when receiving few minutes of ice time. So thet tend to do poorly if not given enough time to work with. That's why there's no point stacking up four lines with the same kind of point producing players.

 

[aufheben]

First line AHL players are offensive players who, for a variety of reasons, can't put it together in the NHL. They skate a bit too slow, their stick-handling isn't quite good enough, poor shot selection, think the game a few steps too slow, etc. Still some of the better players in the world but not quite enough to translate to the NHL. But they are primarily offensive players who likely have some holes in their defensive game. They can score on AHL-level goalies, and take advantage of AHL-level defenses. In the NHL they can maybe put up 20-30 points, tops, and have little to contribute on defense.

An NHL 4th liner may or may not be a great offensive player, even in the AHL. But they have more consistent effort, better defensive skills, can skate better, or some other package of things that gives them enough NHL-level talent to stick. In a vacuum they may look objectively worse than an AHL first liner, but they have some skill or subset of skills that makes them succeed at something that is valuable in the NHL whereas the AHL guy just doesn't have it.

Look at Jason Krog. He was pretty much a PPG player in the AHL. Averaged like 50+ assists a season down there at his peak, and scored a decent amount of goals as well. He managed to get 200 NHL games with various clubs, and wasn't particularly good. Averaged 24 points per season, and I don't believe he played much (if any) special teams. He was a stopgap player at best.

Probably this. Vinnie Lettieri scored a PPG in the AHL last season. He scored 3 points in 27 games with the Rangers, and provided nothing else aside from that. Lettieri has a good shot, that’s enough I guess for the AHL but not the NHL.

 

[Crabapple]

A lot of AHL first liners have lots of skill, but aren't as fast as they need to be to be successful in the NHL. Another poster mentioned Alexandre Giroux as an example which fits really well. Since they aren't quick enough to score in the NHL, they're effectively useless as their skillset doesn't suit themselves to a bottom 6 NHL role.

 

[Statto]

There will be skill set differences as they’d have different roles. However whilst there will be various skills lacking in a player not making it, the biggest single thing I think top AHL players lack is NHL level IQ.

 

[Tres Peleches]

Like Lou Lamoriello likes to put it, a team is an orchestra. You need all the instruments. A high-scoring first liner in the AHL mat be a better scorer than a 4th liner, but he may not necessarily fill the needs of the team

In an Video game though it would work that way

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Opportunity more than anything.

 

[biturbo19]

There may be some AHL 1st liners who could hack it as NHL 4th liners, but when it comes to those "AHL Star" journeyman types who have been top AHL scorers for years, it's often a question of usage and deployment. Generally, those guys are missing something in their skillset (typically some combination of speed, size, or ability to make their plays with more limited space) that holds them back from being good enough to slot in as "Top-6" forwards at the NHL level, in a scoring role. Yet their skillset is also very tailored to that scoring role.

They need to be playing a ton, handling the puck all the time, a fixture on the top PP unit, etc. to really be successful playing "their game". But when it comes to being a quality NHL 4th liner, it takes a different sort of skillset and is a completely different "role". It's where you want guys who are going to be fast and reliable, comfortable making an impact without playing a lot of shifts or handling the puck much. Guys who can contribute on the other Special Teams as a PKer, or make themselves useful in other "role" assignments like being trusted with defensive draws or generating "energy" by having a big physical shift. It's where generally, the sort of limitations that hold those AHL scoring stars back from being NHL scoring stars...are the same sort of limitations that make them ill-suited for 4th line "role player" duty in the NHL. Where they can't play fast enough or big enough to handle NHL pace as scorers...they certainly can't handle the pace and intensity of a 4th line shift...after sitting for half a period.

 

[syz]

As mentioned, speed.

Same reason a lot of defensemen suddenly look way better on international ice.

 

[shello]

This thread made me look at the AHL top scorers and wow what a blast from the past that was. Zac Dalpe, Nathan Gerbe, Puempel, etc.

 

[sinDer]

In terms of pure skills, many AHL'ers are as good as NHL'ers.

IMO, the difference is hockey IQ. NHL players think and see the game faster.

The speed of the game in the NHL is not just only about skating, but also about how quick players have to make plays when they have the puck and how quick they have to read the play when playing D. And doing it on a regular basis, game after game.

Many AHL players could look good or even very good in the NHL on a particular night. But they wouldn't be able to repeat it in the long run.

We don't always realize how good NHL players are, even 4th liners.

 

[Windy River]

Another factor could simply be how some handle the big stage of playing in front of 10’s of 1000’s and millions watching on tv their every move, every game.

 

[crobro]

Reid Boucher

 

[Sol]

For awhile, I have thought that there is little difference between the quality of a NHL fourth liner and an AHL first liner. I personally believe that pretty much every NHL team has about 2 or 3 players in the AHL that would put similar results to their worst NHL players. However, I haven't really been able to find much data supporting this. Do you agree with this statement, and can anyone find any numbers to support or dispute this claim?

AHL first liner >>> Ainec. You don't see it happen because NHL coaches throb for the gritty fourth liners who listen to them

 

[37Bergenov14]

First line AHL players are offensive players who, for a variety of reasons, can't put it together in the NHL. They skate a bit too slow, their stick-handling isn't quite good enough, poor shot selection, think the game a few steps too slow, etc. Still some of the better players in the world but not quite enough to translate to the NHL. But they are primarily offensive players who likely have some holes in their defensive game. They can score on AHL-level goalies, and take advantage of AHL-level defenses. In the NHL they can maybe put up 20-30 points, tops, and have little to contribute on defense.

An NHL 4th liner may or may not be a great offensive player, even in the AHL. But they have more consistent effort, better defensive skills, can skate better, or some other package of things that gives them enough NHL-level talent to stick. In a vacuum they may look objectively worse than an AHL first liner, but they have some skill or subset of skills that makes them succeed at something that is valuable in the NHL whereas the AHL guy just doesn't have it.

Look at Jason Krog. He was pretty much a PPG player in the AHL. Averaged like 50+ assists a season down there at his peak, and scored a decent amount of goals as well. He managed to get 200 NHL games with various clubs, and wasn't particularly good. Averaged 24 points per season, and I don't believe he played much (if any) special teams. He was a stopgap player at best.

Was going to post my own opinion, but...this.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

I bet ya if you can take a decent 1st liner in the AHL and slot him with two proven top-6 guys in the NHL, that (AHL) player will put up respectable numbers and might even fool other GMs as being a legit player.

Many examples of this but Cory Conacher is a prime example.

 

[Strakanator]

Most of the responses are Old School hockey thinking at its finest.

Nowadays:

Every line you play has the objective to outchance and out score whichever line they are up against. There are no real checking or defensive lines anymore. If your line can’t generate offense and score goals, even if it’s a 4th line, it fairly useless in the current NHL.

Do the players have to not be a defensive liability? Absolutely, yes. That part of the responses are correct. However, there is no use for the traditional 4th line guy that just checks or blocks shots anymore. Every player on all 4 lines should be highly skilled and capable of generating offense.

For the top AHL guys, I would ask 2 questions: Are they fast enough for the nhl game? Do they have a solid two-way game, so they will not get scored on? Many of the AHL guys would be better options than current 4th liners.

Example: The Penguins had some injuries earlier in the year and rolled out a 4th line of Lafferty, Blandisi, Johnson. They only played a couple games and scored several goals. That might be best 4th line the Penguins have ever rolled out. A couple players got healthy and those guys were sent back to the minors. Why?

 

[Elvs]

Most of the responses are Old School hockey thinking at its finest.

Nowadays:

Every line you play has the objective to outchance and out score whichever line they are up against. There are no real checking or defensive lines anymore. If your line can’t generate offense and score goals, even if it’s a 4th line, it fairly useless in the current NHL.

Do the players have to not be a defensive liability? Absolutely, yes. That part of the responses are correct. However, there is no use for the traditional 4th line guy that just checks or blocks shots anymore. Every player on all 4 lines should be highly skilled and capable of generating offense.

For the top AHL guys, I would ask 2 questions: Are they fast enough for the nhl game? Do they have a solid two-way game, so they will not get scored on? Many of the AHL guys would be better options than current 4th liners.

Example: The Penguins had some injuries earlier in the year and rolled out a 4th line of Lafferty, Blandisi, Johnson. They only played a couple games and scored several goals. That might be best 4th line the Penguins have ever rolled out. A couple players got healthy and those guys were sent back to the minors. Why?

A couple of years ago Ducks fans were ranting over guys like Kalle Kossila and Kevin Roy being stuck in the minors. And look at where they are now. I'd much rather have Derek Grant and Carter Rowney on our 4th line. Because they don't pull off flashy moves, people assume diminutive one dimensional minor leaguers must be better, when in fact guys like Grant and Rowney are PPG players the AHL level.

As for the players you speak of, Johnson I don't know much about but Blandisi and Lafferty are quite physical and hard working. Either of them could just as well fit on a 4th line in the "old NHL". It's not like every 4th liner in the league 10-15 years ago was a over 6 feet tall and weighted over 200 lbs...

Going back to the Ducks, Troy Terry is someone who shouldn't be in the NHL right now despite him scoring a PPG in the AHL last season. He has great skills, but he's not physically ready and he's a defensive liability. Yeah, at first glance he might be much more impressive than a guy like Derek Grant. But if production is the same, I'm taking the guy who is strong, can block shots, kill penalties and makes better decisions with and without the puck any day of the week.

Having great hands, puck skills and a good shot means nothing if you're not producing points and you're constantly turning the puck over. Maybe I'm old school thinking, but then so is Boston icing the likes of Wagner, Kuraly, Nordstrom, Acciari etc in their bottom six. They didn't win the cup last year, but I'd say they (including their bottom six) did pretty well.

I know you said defense matters. But I'm curious what you think of these Boston forwards.

 

[Kahvi]

A lot of AHL first liners have lots of skill, but aren't as fast as they need to be to be successful in the NHL. Another poster mentioned Alexandre Giroux as an example which fits really well. Since they aren't quick enough to score in the NHL, they're effectively useless as their skillset doesn't suit themselves to a bottom 6 NHL role.

Teemu Pulkkinen is another one

 

[Number 57]

The difference is pace and physical abilities as well as specific coaches wanting specific players to play specific roles within their system

 

[LakeLivin]

Honestly mostly the style of play. For example looking at last year's Hurricanes and Checkers, there's little doubt that Janne Kuokkanen is a more skilled player than Saku Maenalainen or Clark Bishop. But the other two were able to effectively fill in on a 4th line role on a conference finalist because they play a much more defensively sound game and can be effective minutes eaters for 7-8 minutes a night even if they aren't producing offensively. A guy like Kuokkanen, or Zac Boychuk, or Jason Krog before him has to be producing in a scoring role to be an effective NHL player, they just don't bring enough to the table if they're not.

Couple more examples:

Valentin Zykov or Alexsi Saarela

vs

Greg McKegg

 

[wetcoast]

For awhile, I have thought that there is little difference between the quality of a NHL fourth liner and an AHL first liner. I personally believe that pretty much every NHL team has about 2 or 3 players in the AHL that would put similar results to their worst NHL players. However, I haven't really been able to find much data supporting this. Do you agree with this statement, and can anyone find any numbers to support or dispute this claim?

The biggest difference is that the typical NHL 4th liner is a gritty character and plays a role on his team and it's not a scoring role.

The typical first liner in the NHL is a scorer and often can only make the NHL as a top 6 player.

The AHL first liner is probably a "better" offensive player but the NHL 4th liner is better suited for a supporting 4th line role in the NHL.

It's apples and oranges really.

Perfect example is Jay Beagle, who wouldn't score as much as Reid Boucher who is an elite AHL sniper but couldn't play the role of beagle or heck even Tim Schaller on the Canucks.

 

[Dr Quincy]

For awhile, I have thought that there is little difference between the quality of a NHL fourth liner and an AHL first liner. I personally believe that pretty much every NHL team has about 2 or 3 players in the AHL that would put similar results to their worst NHL players. However, I haven't really been able to find much data supporting this. Do you agree with this statement, and can anyone find any numbers to support or dispute this claim?

I do agree and might even expand those numbers a bit (depending on the team). Luck and being in the right place at the right team matter a lot as well.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

It really depends. Are you using highly touted prospects on your AHL team's first line or filling it with career AHLers or a mixture of both.

 

[Elvs]

The biggest difference is that the typical NHL 4th liner is a gritty character and plays a role on his team and it's not a scoring role.

The typical first liner in the NHL is a scorer and often can only make the NHL as a top 6 player.

The AHL first liner is probably a "better" offensive player but the NHL 4th liner is better suited for a supporting 4th line role in the NHL.

It's apples and oranges really.

Perfect example is Jay Beagle, who wouldn't score as much as Reid Boucher who is an elite AHL sniper but couldn't play the role of beagle or heck even Tim Schaller on the Canucks.

This, and it's pretty much the same between any level. There's some high scoring ECHL'ers who wouldn't be productive playing 4th lines minutes in the AHL, hence a more defensive sound player is likely to play in that role instead.