The Decline of Vladimir Krutov

[Sturminator]

Maybe Krutov is a bit of a Dave Taylor with the ability to go up a whole notch in big games at times.

If Krutov's baseline performance was Dave Taylor without the defense, I don't see why he belongs anywhere close to an ATD top line or in a top-60 all-time wingers project, even if he'd never come to North America and there had never been doping allegations. What Cliff Fletcher said of Makarov in Gretzky to Lemieux (page 205) probably applies to the whole Soviet team from that time:

But the NHL and the Flames wasn't a seamless fit for Makarov. He was essentially brought in to replace Hakan Loob, who returned to Sweden after the Flames' Cup triumph in 1989, and while the numbers were there, Makarov could never replace Loob in the team's locker room. Makarov wanted to play the same puck-possession, speed-and-skill game that had made him a star in Russia, but the Flames, under Terry Crisp, played dump-and-chase. He told friends he was shocked at the Flames' lack of skill. He said he would welcome a trade to Vancouver, where he could be reunited with Larionov and Krutov. You can guess how that went over in Calgary.

"It was hard for him to play at the optimal level three or four times a week like we do in the NHL," Fletcher says of Makarov. "Their whole system was geared to peaking for the World Championships and the Olympics and they didn't get a lot of competition. He was very stubborn and had his own ideas of how the game should be played. You never knew what you were going to get from shift-to-shift, but there were nights he was magical."

Whether or not one thinks there was widespread doping under Tikhonov, I think it is certainly the case that the Soviet players under that regime were handled in such a way that they were able to perform at their athletic peaks in international competitions. For whatever reason, Krutov seems to have raised his game more than Makarov and Larionov, if international scoring is any indication.

But we're talking about a couple of weeks a year here. By far the largest part of his career was what he did in the Soviet league.

 

[BraveCanadian]

If Krutov's baseline performance was Dave Taylor without the defense, I don't see why he belongs anywhere close to an ATD top line or in a top-60 all-time wingers project, even if he'd never come to North America and there had never been doping allegations. What Cliff Fletcher said of Makarov in Gretzky to Lemieux (page 205) probably applies to the whole Soviet team from that time:

That is a good point by Cliff. Interesting that Makarov was frustrated by the Flames lack of skill considering how talented the Flames were at that time. I think that is part of the point: one of the ways that NHLers maintain a certain level of play over more games and 3-4 nights a week is that they simplify their game so that there are fewer opportunities for mistakes. Yes it isn't as attractive as the inside outside toe-pick top shelf shot that Makarov would no doubt like to have seen more often but it is hard to do that for 80 games.

I think they (the Soviets who came over) were all better as part of the whole than separately as individuals because they had trained so long in a particular style with familiar and similarly trained teammates and a set schedule. It was a tough adjustment for all of them and they all had varying degrees of success (all of them pretty much less than was expected).

Whether or not one thinks there was widespread doping under Tikhonov, I think it is certainly the case that the Soviet players under that regime were handled in such a way that they were able to perform at their athletic peaks in international competitions. For whatever reason, Krutov seems to have raised his game more than Makarov and Larionov, if international scoring is any indication.

But we're talking about a couple of weeks a year here. By far the largest part of his career was what he did in the Soviet league.

The international events were the prestige events so it would make sense that they had their schedules set so that they were rested and recuperated and in top form for the international events.

That would make perfect sense.

It doesn't explain why Krutov elevated his game more than the others in those events except that perhaps his style was most suited to playing against international competition and in particular the Canadians.

 

[Hobnobs]

That is a good point by Cliff. Interesting that Makarov was frustrated by the Flames lack of skill considering how talented the Flames were at that time. I think that is part of the point: one of the ways that NHLers maintain a certain level of play over more games and 3-4 nights a week is that they simplify their game so that there are fewer opportunities for mistakes. Yes it isn't as attractive as the inside outside toe-pick top shelf shot that Makarov would no doubt like to have seen more often but it is hard to do that for 80 games.

I think they (the Soviets who came over) were all better as part of the whole than separately as individuals because they had trained so long in a particular style with familiar and similarly trained teammates and a set schedule. It was a tough adjustment for all of them and they all had varying degrees of success (all of them pretty much less than was expected).



The international events were the prestige events so it would make sense that they had their schedules set so that they were rested and recuperated and in top form for the international events.

That would make perfect sense.

It doesn't explain why Krutov elevated his game more than the others in those events except that perhaps his style was most suited to playing against international competition and in particular the Canadians.

Language barrier I believe. Its not that unheard of that Russians complain about dump and chase. Thats what I would guess Makarov meant with "unskilled".

 

[Sturminator]

Language barrier I believe. Its not that unheard of that Russians complain about dump and chase. Thats what I would guess Makarov meant with "unskilled".

There is also the famous (and hilarous) incident where Makarov took the chalkboard from Terry Crisp, crossed everything out, and drew up his own play, explaining: "Tikhonov bad guy, good coach. You? Good guy, bad coach."

That seems less like a language barrier problem and more like a ****-your-dump-and-chase problem. Kind of crazy, though, seeing as the Flames led the league in goals scored that season. Makarov didn't much care for the defensive system put in place after he came to San Jose, either, though he still produced a lot of beautiful moments for the young franchise (loved watching him while it lasted). Larionov did much better with NHL-style defensive hockey, but then again, he'd always been the defensive conscience of the KLM line, so the transition must have been much easier for him.

 

[Hobnobs]

There is also the famous (and hilarous) incident where Makarov took the chalkboard from Terry Crisp, crossed everything out, and drew up his own play, explaining: "Tikhonov bad guy, good coach. You? Good guy, bad coach."

That seems less like a language barrier problem and more like a ****-your-dump-and-chase problem. Kind of crazy, though, seeing as the Flames led the league in goals scored that season. Makarov didn't much care for the defensive system put in place after he came to San Jose, either, though he still produced a lot of beautiful moments for the young franchise (loved watching him while it lasted). Larionov did much better with NHL-style defensive hockey, but then again, he'd always been the defensive conscience of the KLM line, so the transition must have been much easier for him.

I think Tverdovsky said the same thing to his coach in Anaheim. Forget who it was. Ron Wilson?

Yea, the russians really didnt care for the dump and chase. I dont think they had a problem with defensive hockey but they played defense by possession. They (generalizing) found dump and chase dumb specially when defensemen are dumping the back and then falling back (which I also find as dumb and a destructive part of hockey).

 

[Sturminator]

Yea, the russians really didnt care for the dump and chase. I dont think they had a problem with defensive hockey but they played defense by possession. They (generalizing) found dump and chase dumb specially when defensemen are dumping the back and then falling back (which I also find as dumb and a destructive part of hockey).

I pretty much feel the same way, which is one of the reasons why I am such a fan of Soviet, or more generally European hockey. Dump-and-chase has its place in certain situations, but as a general tactic...I just find it terribly tiresome, especially from a team as talented as those Flames were. Crisp wasn't a very good X's-and-O's coach, and pretty much got what he deserved from Makarov.

It's funny how long it took for European-influenced systems to really take hold in the NHL. A lot of North Americans talk a big game about everything changing after 1972, but caveman hockey was still widespread in the '80s, just masked in many ways by the brilliance of the Oilers, a down period for goaltenders, and transcendent stars like Gretzky and Lemieux. Seems like it wasn't until after the fall of communism and the big influx of European talent in the '90s that the blending of styles started to become widespread.

In that way, Tikhonov was a man before his time. He incorporated "lessons learned" from games against NHL players long before North American coaches figured out how to handle Soviet hockey in a systematic way. Bad guy, good coach.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Yeah, I think this is the core of the issue, along with the circumstantial stuff. For a variety of reasons, I am not going to ask Ed Willes for his source, so the accusation from the Canucks coaching staff will probably have to just stand as it is.

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Maybe more important to getting a clear picture of Vladimir Krutov's legacy would be a serious-minded breakdown of his actual career on the assumption that he was clean. One of the issues I have with Krutov is that I think his true level of skill got distorted in the minds of North American audiences by his showing in a couple of international tournaments, most notably the 1987 Canada Cup. Much as it is with Alexander Yakushev, who many North Americans still consider to have been the second best Soviet forward of his generation after Kharlamov, Krutov's supporters probably overrate him, even ignoring the doping allegations.

Here is a comparison of Krutov vs. the Soviet League scoring leaders throughout his career:

Season | Leader | Leader Points | Krutov Points | Krutov % of leader
1979-80 | Makarov | 68 | 42 | 62
1980-81 | Makarov | 79 | 40 | 51
1981-82 | Makarov | 75 | 66 | 88
1982-83 | Balderis | 63 | 53 | 84
1983-84 | Makarov | 73 | 57 | 78
1984-85 | Makarov | 65 | 53 | 82
1985-86 | Makarov | 62 | 48 | 77
1986-87 | Makarov | 53 | 50 | 94
1987-88 | Makarov | 68 | 42 | 62
1988-89 | Makarov | 54 | 41 | 76
Total | -- | 660 | 492 | 75

Just for comparison's sake, here are the scoring numbers for Marcel Dionne and Dave Taylor for the 1977-78 to 1986-87 period, when they played together on the same line in Los Angeles:

Player | GP | G | A | P
Dionne | 761 | 457 | 634 | 1091
Taylor | 684 | 321 | 473 | 794

For those of you scoring at home, Dave Taylor put up 73% of Dionne's points in 77 fewer games over the time they played together in Los Angeles, and this includes Taylor's rookie year and the 1982-83 season when he was really banged up. If you adjust for games played, he's actually a little bit closer to Dionne than Krutov is to Makarov.

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So somebody explain to me how Krutov was a better scorer than Dave Taylor...because I really don't think Makarov (with one season of peak Balderis thrown in) was a better scorer than Dionne. Is Krutov basically Dave Taylor without the defense, a better playoff scoring record and an embarrassing crash-and-burn end to his career? In our drive to rehabilitate Vladimir Krutov's legacy, have we perhaps missed the fact that he was never that good to begin with?

I like the comparison, but have a few comments:

1. You can't adjust Taylor for games played if we aren't adjusting the Soviets for games played. In what has become the most popular comparison tool around here (vs.X) we don't make any adjustment for games played either. Not sure if that policy is 100% correct, but there should be at least some credit given for staying healthy. If you don't adjust for games played Krutov is ahead by abt 2% (74.5 to 72.8)

2. Why is Krutov being compared to the leader and not to Makarov every season when Taylor is being compared to Dionne every season? Making that adjustment brings Krutov's % up to abt 77.0 total (Makarov scored 42pts the season Balderis led the league). So now Krutov has a 4.2% lead over Taylor. Looking at wingers 7 year weighted vsX as a comparison, Lanny McDonald has a vs.X score exactly 4.2% above Dave Taylor. Seems like McDonald may be a better comparable, then add the whole stepping it up in big games thing.

3. Krutov finished higher in Soviet MVP voting than Makarov some years:

1983: Krutov 2nd (111 pts), Makarov 3rd (50 pts)
1987: Krutov 1st (264 pts), Makarov 3rd (69 pts)
1988: Krutov 3rd (94 pts), Makarov 4th (41 pts)

Did Taylor or McDonald ever finish higher than prime Dionne in Hart voting or were they ever even thought of as being better than Dionne? No

 

[Dreakmur]

Krutov as the only individual on the national team singled out for allegedly using PEDs based on the little evidence there is never made any sense in the first place.

This is by far the most baffling part about the discussion. Not sure how anyone can believe - with the system in place for their hockey program - that only one Russian player was taking PEDs.

 

[EagleBelfour]

This is by far the most baffling part about the discussion. Not sure how anyone can believe - with the system in place for their hockey program - that only one Russian player was taking PEDs.

I definitely agree with this statement.

 

[Sturminator]

1. You can't adjust Taylor for games played if we aren't adjusting the Soviets for games played.

This would change nothing. Other than 1982-83, both Makarov and Krutov were healthy for pretty much the whole time.

2. Why is Krutov being compared to the leader and not to Makarov every season when Taylor is being compared to Dionne every season?

Because Makarov was hurt for a big chunk of the 1982-83 season. Comparing Krutov to Makarov in this season would result in a gross distortion of his actual production. We should reward Krutov for being healthy, that's true, but we should not reward him for Makarov being hurt.

3. Krutov finished higher in Soviet MVP voting than Makarov some years:

1983: Krutov 2nd (111 pts), Makarov 3rd (50 pts)
1987: Krutov 1st (264 pts), Makarov 3rd (69 pts)
1988: Krutov 3rd (94 pts), Makarov 4th (41 pts)

I've already covered why this is irrelevant for 1982-83 due to Makarov's health problems. Soviet league MVP voting tracks closely to international play over the course of the award, and 1987-88 represents Krutov's international peak - his stunning performance at the 1987 Canada Cup, and his finish as leading scorer at the 1988 Olympics. There's likely little more in it than that. The Soviet league MVP was nothing like a modern Hart.

 

[Sturminator]

This is by far the most baffling part about the discussion. Not sure how anyone can believe - with the system in place for their hockey program - that only one Russian player was taking PEDs.

I don't know that anyone does actually believe that, but Krutov is the only one who has ever been identified by name.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't know that anyone does actually believe that, but Krutov is the only one who has ever been identified by name.

Your position sure did soften up quickly after Willes got back to you

 

[Sturminator]

Your position sure did soften up quickly after Willes got back to you

Yes...it's funny how responsive my opinion is to facts.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

This would change nothing. Other than 1982-83, both Makarov and Krutov were healthy for pretty much the whole time.



Because Makarov was hurt for a big chunk of the 1982-83 season. Comparing Krutov to Makarov in this season would result in a gross distortion of his actual production. We should reward Krutov for being healthy, that's true, but we should not reward him for Makarov being hurt.



I've already covered why this is irrelevant for 1982-83 due to Makarov's health problems. Soviet league MVP voting tracks closely to international play over the course of the award, and 1987-88 represents Krutov's international peak - his stunning performance at the 1987 Canada Cup, and his finish as leading scorer at the 1988 Olympics. There's likely little more in it than that. The Soviet league MVP was nothing like a modern Hart.

I don't know how accurate they are, but using the hockey-reference stats Krutov played 413 games over that time span and Makarov played 428 games

 

[Sturminator]

I don't know how accurate they are, but using the hockey-reference stats Krutov played 413 games over that time span and Makarov played 428 games

They've got the games played numbers right.

If you just want a straight points-per-game comparison between Krutov / Makarov (including Makarov's points in 1982-83 and not Balderis') and Taylor / Dionne, here goes:

Krutov: 492 points in 413 games
Makarov: 639 points in 428 games
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Krutov PPG ~ 80% of Makarov's

Taylor: 794 points in 684 games
Dionne: 1091 points in 761 games
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Taylor PPG ~ 81% of Dionne's

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Like I said, if you just do a points-per-game analysis, Taylor is slightly ahead. Yes, Krutov was healthier than Taylor on the whole (though he was banged up more in the last two seasons than I realized), but he was not closer to Makarov in terms of offensive production than Taylor was to Dionne.

The shoe fits.

 

[Dreakmur]

I don't know that anyone does actually believe that, but Krutov is the only one who has ever been identified by name.

So you don't believe Krutov was the only one using PEDs, but you are the one who jumps on him - and only him - every draft?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So you don't believe Krutov was the only one using PEDs, but you are the one who jumps on him - and only him - every draft?

Krutov is the only one who went from superstar to useless in a matter of months

 

[Sturminator]

So you don't believe Krutov was the only one using PEDs, but you are the one who jumps on him - and only him - every draft?

Not everyone who breaks the rules is caught. That doesn't mean we shouldn't punish those who are.

 

[jarek]

Sturm, that was a wonderful job you did comparing the point production of Krutov to Taylor. I think maybe Krutov might be exactly Dave Taylor in terms of overall value. Some discounts must be made for Krutov's (and pretty much everyone else's) work in the Soviet league due to potential competition issues (both league wide talent being low in depth and the fact that CSKA was stacked like nobody else at the time), as well as a discount due to the way Krutov just crashed and burned when he came over to the NHL. Then if you look at Dave Taylor having better intangibles, and Krutov being a better big-game player, this likely means they come out mostly even, no?

 

[Dreakmur]

Not everyone who breaks the rules is caught. That doesn't mean we shouldn't punish those who are.

Some half-assed allegation in a second-hand story in a book is not getting caught....

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Some half-assed allegation in a second-hand story in a book is not getting caught....

The Vancouver Canucks training staff isn't exactly a non-biased opinion either. They think they're getting this great superstar and he shows up out of shape and not performing near what was expected. From the start they have to be pretty upset with him. Their job is to make sure players are in shape, they can't do anything about how his arrival condition, but after that it's partially on them to get Krutov on a proper training regimen, diet, back in shape, etc. Obviously, that doesn't happen if Krutov doesn't buy in, and it seems pretty clear he didn't, but at some level the training staff failed there and blaming PEDs is much easier than saying something along the lines of "we couldn't get this guy onboard" or "our training techniques did not work."

 

[jarek]

The Vancouver Canucks training staff isn't exactly a non-biased opinion either. They think they're getting this great superstar and he shows up out of shape and not performing near what was expected. From the start they have to be pretty upset with him. Their job is to make sure players are in shape, they can't do anything about how his arrival condition, but after that it's partially on them to get Krutov on a proper training regimen, diet, back in shape, etc. Obviously, that doesn't happen if Krutov doesn't buy in, and it seems pretty clear he didn't, but at some level the training staff failed there and blaming PEDs is much easier than saying something along the lines of "we couldn't get this guy onboard" or "our training techniques did not work."

With respect to the ATD, would Krutov's refusal to go about a proper training regimen not be just as damning as the PEDs?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

With respect to the ATD, would Krutov's refusal to go about a proper training regimen not be just as damning as the PEDs?

The PEDs discount his Soviet years, the former would not IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Way too much stock given to statistics in the Soviet domestic league, considering in a lot of ways it was basically a glorified exhibition league to prepare the players for international play.

By the 80s, the Red Army Team was so far superior to every other team, a cynic might just say that Makarov cared more about beating up on weaklings in basically meaningless games than Krutov did.

Anyway, Krutov's voting record for "Soviet Player of the Year" in the mid 80s speaks for itself.

Also ignored is that even domestically, Krutov was basically Makarov's equal as a goal scorer, while Makarov's big leads in points were mainly driven by assists.

Anyway, I was really happy HT picked Krutov right before I had to make a tough decision about whether I wanted him.

 

[jarek]

The PEDs discount his Soviet years, the former would not IMO.

To me, how any of those international guys did in the NHL is a big deal. It tells me approximately how they would have done in the NHL in their primes abroad. That Krutov was such an unmitigated disaster, whether fair or not, tells me that he probably would have suffered a similar fate in an earlier part of his career.