The Dean Lombardi Kings and The Riddle of Size
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BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
Taylor was much more obsessed with size than DL but that was also a product of the era.
Blake took Vilardi with his first ever pick, a guy who would not be the poster child for the "New NHL".
It is rumored that the Kings would have taken Dach if they had a choice between him and Turcotte, opting for the bigger center with less motor since they seemingly believe in Dach's skill level being above Turcotte's.
Basically, there isn't a one-size fits all philosophy. Kaliyev isn't known for his skating or character and is also not small. Some guys they draft are going to have character as one of their top traits (JAD comes to mind), some will have skating (Kupari) and others will have an all-around game with a nice projectable floor (Turcotte/Bjornfot). I think the only thing with them is that I don't see them taking a flier on a "head case" or someone with character red flags; however, it is not a prerequisite that every player they draft be future captain material.
I guess I can give you that they look at the skating and mobility more than in the past but that is the entire league: the days of Taylor Pyatt, Teubert, McIlrath, Kyle Beach etc...going in the Top 15 are over so this isn't a Kings only thing but rather the entire league.
Blake took Vilardi with his first ever pick, a guy who would not be the poster child for the "New NHL".
It is rumored that the Kings would have taken Dach if they had a choice between him and Turcotte, opting for the bigger center with less motor since they seemingly believe in Dach's skill level being above Turcotte's.
Basically, there isn't a one-size fits all philosophy. Kaliyev isn't known for his skating or character and is also not small. Some guys they draft are going to have character as one of their top traits (JAD comes to mind), some will have skating (Kupari) and others will have an all-around game with a nice projectable floor (Turcotte/Bjornfot). I think the only thing with them is that I don't see them taking a flier on a "head case" or someone with character red flags; however, it is not a prerequisite that every player they draft be future captain material.
I guess I can give you that they look at the skating and mobility more than in the past but that is the entire league: the days of Taylor Pyatt, Teubert, McIlrath, Kyle Beach etc...going in the Top 15 are over so this isn't a Kings only thing but rather the entire league.
MxH0CKEY
Registered User
IDK if Moller is the right comparable to Brendan Morrow who was drafted in another era of hockey in the early late 90s and who actually plays a gutsy, energy style. I agree that Sutter was the reason for why the Kings played a heavy game though. I also think Sutter played a role in Lombardi tweaking his philosophy a bit to accommodate that heavy style.
I think what the Blues have now, which is the combination of the Kings old heavy game but with more speed is what is going to win championships in today's game. In addition to that, playing a "Speed" game with players making quicker decisions and not necessarily skating faster is what truly helps with winning. Looking back at the championship games NHLN has on and those Kings teams moved the puck up the ice so quick, it wasn't just their size and grit wearing other teams that won it, it was how quick they made passes out of the zone and through the neutral zone.
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I've always liked size. Both teams last year in the finals were I believe two of the bigger teams. If we can get skill with size I'm all over that.
BringTheReign
Registered User
Not exactly as relevant, but the early-mid 00s Hawks weren't small teams either. People liked to typecast those match-ups as big & heavy vs. fast, but in reality both teams were big, both teams were skilled, but one of them played a heavy forecheck & possession style (which on TV is the class big & heavy style) while the other played a transition-centric game.
The Kings have been tough and big since I’ve been a fan. They only were soft for a few years when Jeff Cowan or Andy Murray’s power play were the enforcers.
The Kings have always had a McSorley, Grimson, Belanger, Flinn, Brennan, Thornton, Ivanans, Westgarth and then Clifford/Nolan. Hell, Lombardi even added Carcillo.
The battles against the Canucks, Flames and Ducks over the years were always entertaining (at least when I started watching from 1992 thru a few years ago). The Kings had to be big and tough to compete and not get run out of the building. The issue is now that the league is changing - Vancouver is pretty soft now. Calgary is still tough and Tkachuk is a thorn in DD’s side. The Ducks have gone from size to younger and smaller as well. But I think as long as Blake is around, the Kings will cling size, which I love.
Kings were big and skilled at both forward and defense at the right time with amazing goaltending.
The Kings have always had a McSorley, Grimson, Belanger, Flinn, Brennan, Thornton, Ivanans, Westgarth and then Clifford/Nolan. Hell, Lombardi even added Carcillo.
The battles against the Canucks, Flames and Ducks over the years were always entertaining (at least when I started watching from 1992 thru a few years ago). The Kings had to be big and tough to compete and not get run out of the building. The issue is now that the league is changing - Vancouver is pretty soft now. Calgary is still tough and Tkachuk is a thorn in DD’s side. The Ducks have gone from size to younger and smaller as well. But I think as long as Blake is around, the Kings will cling size, which I love.
Kings were big and skilled at both forward and defense at the right time with amazing goaltending.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
There just aren't really any designated enforcers anymore. Even MacDermid is expected to play more minutes than a Brennan/Flinn/Westgarth type.
That being said, MacDermid can go with anyone in the league so you don't feel bad at all when he is in the lineup but they are now missing that Clifford type player when Mac is sitting.
I don't think that Blake is "clinging" to size. As much as I love MacDermid, he is most likely not finding the ice once this team is legit again. I do think he is going to be like any GM in the league: if all things are equal when evaluating a player but one of them is bigger, you are going to lean towards the bigger player.
King'sPawn
Enjoy the chaos
- Jul 1, 2003
- 23,190
- 24,101
I'll just throw some numbers out there for discussion.
During Lombardi's tenure, here's the distribution of size by position:
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]
So Lombardi drafted 11 forwards under 6', 20 who were 6'0 or 6'1, and 17 who were taller than 6'1. Namely being that most people consider under 6' to be "smaller size" and taller than 6'1 is "bigger than average". It was my own cut off.
During Blake's tenure so far, here's the same distribution of size:
[TBODY]
[/TBODY]
I have not tried doing this under Dave Taylor's tenure, as trying to find measurements of kids dating back to earlier times is a little spotty, then it comes into question the unreliability of data if I choose different sources, etc.
During Lombardi's tenure, here's the distribution of size by position:
| Forwards | Height | Count |
| 22.9% | < 72" | 11 |
| 41.7% | 72-73" | 20 |
| 35.4% | > 73" | 17 |
| Defense | Height | |
| 11.1% | < 72" | 3 |
| 44.4% | 72-73" | 12 |
| 44.4% | > 73" | 12 |
| Goaltender | Height | |
| 14.3% | < 72" | 1 |
| 71.4% | 72-73" | 5 |
| 16.7% | > 73" | 1 |
So Lombardi drafted 11 forwards under 6', 20 who were 6'0 or 6'1, and 17 who were taller than 6'1. Namely being that most people consider under 6' to be "smaller size" and taller than 6'1 is "bigger than average". It was my own cut off.
During Blake's tenure so far, here's the same distribution of size:
| Forwards | Height | Count |
| 33.3% | < 72" | 4 |
| 33.3% | 72-73" | 4 |
| 33.3% | > 73" | 4 |
| Defense | Height | |
| 42.9% | < 72" | 3 |
| 57.1% | 72-73" | 4 |
| 0.0% | > 73" | |
| Goaltender | Height | |
| 0.0% | < 72" | |
| 0.0% | 72-73" | |
| 100.0% | > 73" | 4 |
I have not tried doing this under Dave Taylor's tenure, as trying to find measurements of kids dating back to earlier times is a little spotty, then it comes into question the unreliability of data if I choose different sources, etc.
Sol
Smile
- Jun 30, 2017
- 25,052
- 21,322
The Kings were a team built solely on size and quick forecheck so they'd press on the D and cycle. And just throw the puck towards the net and crash.
The reason why the Kings fizzled out as quickly as they did is because they didn't dump these said players, but they also drafted players on size and not much focus on speed until it was too late. Playing a quick forecheck game isn't only about strategy, but also consistency. Once these players get a bit older they slow down even more. Kings were going for size too long and "character. Not too much on talent and speed.
The one thing that Blake is doing now that DL wasn't doing is taking the BPA during the drafts.
The reason why the Kings fizzled out as quickly as they did is because they didn't dump these said players, but they also drafted players on size and not much focus on speed until it was too late. Playing a quick forecheck game isn't only about strategy, but also consistency. Once these players get a bit older they slow down even more. Kings were going for size too long and "character. Not too much on talent and speed.
The one thing that Blake is doing now that DL wasn't doing is taking the BPA during the drafts.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
It helps having a team that can transition the puck. When you think of big teams you think of recent Cup champs or contenders like the Blues, Caps and Bruins, but look at these numbers (from the start of 2019-20).
The league average height was 73.1 inches (6'1") and the average weight is 199.3 lbs.
And here's how every team ranks in overall hits (mind you, this stat is VERY subjective depending on where the stat is recorded).
NHL.com Stats
The Kings placed just behind the Blues in hits last season. Then you have a team like Vancouver, one of the biggest in terms of height and weight, yet they ranked 23rd in the league in hits. You also look at the Lightning, Canadiens and Oilers, teams generally considered to be soft and undersized, who are high ranking in overall hits.
Essentially, it boils down to how you play, not some measurement in height and weight. The Kings were still a big team in 2016 when the Sharks embarrassed them in the playoffs, and they still weren't a small team in 2018 when Vegas skated circles around them.
It helps when you have a team that can keep up with the competition and also a squad that can transition the puck. You know, things the Kings haven't been so good at since 2014.
The league average height was 73.1 inches (6'1") and the average weight is 199.3 lbs.
And here's how every team ranks in overall hits (mind you, this stat is VERY subjective depending on where the stat is recorded).
NHL.com Stats
The Kings placed just behind the Blues in hits last season. Then you have a team like Vancouver, one of the biggest in terms of height and weight, yet they ranked 23rd in the league in hits. You also look at the Lightning, Canadiens and Oilers, teams generally considered to be soft and undersized, who are high ranking in overall hits.
Essentially, it boils down to how you play, not some measurement in height and weight. The Kings were still a big team in 2016 when the Sharks embarrassed them in the playoffs, and they still weren't a small team in 2018 when Vegas skated circles around them.
It helps when you have a team that can keep up with the competition and also a squad that can transition the puck. You know, things the Kings haven't been so good at since 2014.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
I think it is more of a case of the following:
-Kings didn't hit their stride until the strong depth pieces were exiting their primes. Your Stoll/Greene/Mitchell type guys were never adequately replaced and either left or were shells of their former selves by '15 or '16.
-Voynov
-Richards fizzling out so quickly. Like, he's still supposed to be playing for the Kings right now. Throw Gaborik in there too for one playoff run and a good 2015 and then bye bye.
-Trades for immediate help. You do the Richards trade still but those are nice pieces that went the other way. Don't know who the 1st would be and Simmonds is kind of broken down but Schenn is still a nice player. All the 1st for Penner/Sekera/Lucic add up.
I don't buy that it is because Lombardi drafted players on size while not caring about speed until it was too late: they just didn't have a lot of top picks. No 1st's in 2011, 2013, 2015 or 16. 2012 and '14 saw Pearson and Kempe be drafted in Round 1. They have decent size but are both good skaters with Kempe being known for it.
Along with Pearson in 2012, he also drafted Miller who won the AHL fastest skater competition. LaDue was not a size/character pick.
I'll give you 2013 with the Auger and Fasching (Remember when he was the steal of the draft?) picks but he took Kubalik in Round 7.
2014 has the aforementioned Kempe so speed right at the top. McKeown was an all-around guy with average size. Lintuniemi is a size pick.
Takes Wagner in 2015 who is the fastest King I've maybe ever seen. Cernak in Round 2 is a great pick but he f***ed that up.
Takes Clague in 2016 who is known for his skating.
If you want to argue that "it was too late" by the time he drafted speed and skill, I guess you can argue it but Pearson contributed to a Cup winner so I guess it comes down to when is it too late...2015? I see more of an issue with four guys I listed being current legit NHL players on other teams v. drafting them too late with only one of them--Pearson--contributing to the Kings. At least his 1st rounders during this time are NHL players, even if Kempe is kind of disappointing.
Forbort sticks out as a size pick and it stings but then he went and drafted a skill guy in Toffoli, something that he supposedly never did. Hell, his highest pick until Doughty was used on an undersized defenseman known for his skating.
Long story short: the lack of 1st round picks hurts and then everything hurts more when maybe your best draft picks made from 2012 - 2016 are currently playing for other teams with nothing to show for it except Lukas Parik and Markus Phillips. I think Blake eventually got Nouisainen out of the Kubalik trade so maybe something comes out of it.
It’s so crazy thinking and looking back now - Lombardi made very FEW mistakes his first few years but after the two cups he kept making mistake after mistake. And even the mistakes he made pre cups could be cleaned up by letting them go via free agency or trading them (Nagy, Cloutier, Willsie, Calder, Preissing).
Drafting Hickey, Teubert and giving Cloutier an extension are also a few of the pre cup mistakes DL made but as stated above so many post cup mistakes....
Not buying out Richards, extension for Gaborik, trading a first for Lucic, trading a first for Sekera. Trading McKeowan and Cernak.
Drafting Hickey, Teubert and giving Cloutier an extension are also a few of the pre cup mistakes DL made but as stated above so many post cup mistakes....
Not buying out Richards, extension for Gaborik, trading a first for Lucic, trading a first for Sekera. Trading McKeowan and Cernak.
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apocalypse
Dean Lombardi's Yes Man
I think what it's come down to is that a team can be successful with smaller players as long as their skilled. I think it's always been that way, but more so today. Clutch and grab hockey is on the way out and so I think you'll be seeing refs make those holding and obstruction calls.
We have a good collection of players in the system and so we should hold onto them. Drafting Byfield or Stutzle is a win-win for the Kings. The OP made a good point that the team is headed in the direction of gritty, energetic players and so I think that you can't lose with the draft this year.
We have a good collection of players in the system and so we should hold onto them. Drafting Byfield or Stutzle is a win-win for the Kings. The OP made a good point that the team is headed in the direction of gritty, energetic players and so I think that you can't lose with the draft this year.
Yikes!It helps having a team that can transition the puck. When you think of big teams you think of recent Cup champs or contenders like the Blues, Caps and Bruins, but look at these numbers (from the start of 2019-20).
The league average height was 73.1 inches (6'1") and the average weight is 199.3 lbs.
And here's how every team ranks in overall hits (mind you, this stat is VERY subjective depending on where the stat is recorded).
NHL.com Stats
The Kings placed just behind the Blues in hits last season. Then you have a team like Vancouver, one of the biggest in terms of height and weight, yet they ranked 23rd in the league in hits. You also look at the Lightning, Canadiens and Oilers, teams generally considered to be soft and undersized, who are high ranking in overall hits.
Essentially, it boils down to how you play, not some measurement in height and weight. The Kings were still a big team in 2016 when the Sharks embarrassed them in the playoffs, and they still weren't a small team in 2018 when Vegas skated circles around them.
It helps when you have a team that can keep up with the competition and also a squad that can transition the puck. You know, things the Kings haven't been so good at since 2014.
We are short and stout.
“this is my handle and this is my ... wait a minute, I’m a sugar bowl”!
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
By the end of the season the Kings roster average was 6'1" and 200 lbs, with only four players under 6'0".
On average, the Kings are a bigger team than the Bruins, and they're not necessarily known as a soft team, and the Lightning are a bigger sized team on average than Boston as well. You also have teams that are considered to be fast clubs like the Golden Knights and Hurricanes who are bigger than the league average.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
- 21,478
- 18,920
The change in philosophy didn't happen when Sutter got here. It happened in the Summer of 2008.
Look at the trades and coaching change made that offseason:
Out:
Crawford (offensive minded coach)
Visnovsky
Cammalleri
In:
Murray (Defensive Coach)
Stoll
Greene
Sean O`Donnell
Denis Gauthier
Clearly there was a change in philosophy to a bigger more defensive oriented team at this time.
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
You have a point with the defensemen but I believe it was when Sutter got here that we started to look for big forwards too.
Axl Rhoadz
Binky distributor
- Apr 5, 2011
- 5,343
- 3,959
I believe it was Sutter who scouted Ontario and suggested bringing up Nolan and King.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
- 21,478
- 18,920
When Dean first came to the Kings he believed the "New" NHL was all about skating and offense. That's part of the reason the Kings picked Hickey so high; they over valued skating.
That philosophy changed after the 2007-08 season.
I think @Rorschach is pointing out the irony that we're sort of back to Dean's original philosophy.
That being said, current King's management hasn't shied away from selecting prospects with questionable skating (Vilardi, Kalyiev).
That philosophy changed after the 2007-08 season.
I think @Rorschach is pointing out the irony that we're sort of back to Dean's original philosophy.
That being said, current King's management hasn't shied away from selecting prospects with questionable skating (Vilardi, Kalyiev).
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
- 21,478
- 18,920
It would've been interesting if Azevedo would have got the call up in 2012. He was leading the Monarchs in scoring with 28 goals in 63 games.
Azevedo went on to have some pretty good seasons in Finland and the KHL.
johnjm22
Pseudo Intellectual
- Aug 2, 2005
- 21,478
- 18,920
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
They likely wanted Andrei Loktionov to get that spot and kept him up with the team most of the season, and probably thought Manchester would be better served keeping their leading scorer.
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Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I don't think it would have been interesting at all, look what happened to Weal.
One turnover and out.
One turnover and out.
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