Speculation: The coaching search continues

[Burrowsaurus]

If you base a coach hiring on marketing you are following the Dorion plan. Just a terrible way to build a winner.

What marketing went into DJ?

 

[GCK]

What marketing went into DJ?

I was referring to Debrincat and Chychrun trades.

 

[BankStreetParade]

The best PR is building a winning team. Staios’ job is to block out the noise and make the best decisions for this franchise - he will convince people with results. If you can’t do that as a GM, you end up with the Summer of Pierre.

Setting hard lines that aren’t a key determinator of success is just a sign of inflexibility. If Staios and Jacques understand why some coaches transition well and others don’t, at some point they have to have confidence in themselves to make the right choice if that’s the best candidate available for what they’re looking for.

This is a business that requires people purchasing tickets for the entire season before the team has played a single game. If you don't think PR and marketing are necessary components of that equation, then you don't understand the business side of the operation. Staios can't be agnostic to the sales pressures, especially after a season that was a step back and full of emotional turbulence. It's just a part of reality for a team that's worth $1B.

If you base a coach hiring on marketing you are following the Dorion plan. Just a terrible way to build a winner.

Did I say it's the only thing you're basing the hiring on? Read the whole post before you make such a ridiculous comment.

Marketing perspective is irrelevant, PR is irrelevant, we're talking about evaluating a hire. I was quite clear that fans do not typically act rationally, they react emotionally.

Not for $1B organizations it's not. This is part of the sales and business side of the organization, which Staios has an obligation to. It's about enticing fans to commit thousands of dollars for tickets to every game of the season before the season has even started.

The original point was it is very hard to judge a coaching hire with anything but hindsight since the information required is not something fans have access to. This was brought up by Bert and seconded by Big Muddy, and you acted incredulous that they would take the wait and see approach. If the question is "is coach A a good hire" you will need to wait and see how he does to answer that question, particularly when he doesn't have an existing track record. That is, and always was my point.

No shit. Which brings up the main argument of why would this team want to wait an entire season to see if they were right about a total unknown vs. going out and getting a guy with experience and good resume?

Why did Edmonton want to find out if Knoblauch could cut it (or woodcroft before him)

Internal promotion - AHL affiliate HC. Don't know why they chose Knoblauch.

, why did StL want to find out if Bannister would cut it

Internal promotion - AHL affiliate HC

(or Berube before him who had limited NHL HC experience

Iinternal promotion - asst. HC

, why did Dallas try Montgomery a few years back (he'd likely still be there if not for "unprofessional conduct",

Don't know.

why did the leafs try our Keefe

Internal promotion - AHL affiliate HC

, the TbL Cooper

Internal promotion - AHL affiliate HC

, Det Lalonde

Not sure. He was in Tampa as an assistant while Yzerman was there, so Steve knew him. That, in combination with his experience on a cup winning coaching staff, probably did it.

, Col Bednar

Don't know.

, Nashville Brunnette

Had a season in Florida as HC where they won 51 games. So, not a complete unknown.

, the Wild Evanson

Internal promotion - asst. HC

, Arz Tourigny

No idea.

, the Capitals Cabery

3 years as AHL affiliate HC.

, all guys who are either recent AHL hires, or had limited NHL experience before landing with their current teams.

So back to the original point, I'll wait and see how the new hire performs, regardless of their background, before passing judgement, becuase as an outsider without much to go on other than brand name recognition, that's the rational thing to do.

With the exception of a few guys, most you pointed out were an internal promotion or had a relationship with the GM who hired them. So, really, teams very rarely hire complete unknowns.

 

[Micklebot]

Not for $1B organizations it's not. This is part of the sales and business side of the organization, which Staios has an obligation to. It's about enticing fans to commit thousands of dollars for tickets to every game of the season before the season has even started.

The discussion was fans evaluating the quality of the hire. If you want to reframe it as whether it's good business sense to hire a name brand vs a lesser known commodity, that's a different discussion, however. if the team's philosophy is to put winning first and winning will be the tool to entice fans, then we're right back where we started. DeBrincat was a great PR move, so was Chychrun, but does that make either of them smart trades?

No shit. Which brings up the main argument of why would this team want to wait an entire season to see if they were right about a total unknown vs. going out and getting a guy with experience and good resume?

Because that's how long it will take to see the fruits of the hire? I mean, maybe you'll have a better idea sooner than 82 games, I'll grant that, but you certainly can't know before the season starts, even if we hire a guy with experience, we won't truly know if it's the right hire until they perform or not.

Internal promotion - AHL affiliate HC. Don't know why they chose Knoblauch.

Internal promotion - AHL affiliate HC

Iinternal promotion - asst. HC

Don't know.

Internal promotion - AHL affiliate HC

Internal promotion - AHL affiliate HC

Not sure. He was in Tampa as an assistant while Yzerman was there, so Steve knew him. That, in combination with his experience on a cup winning coaching staff, probably did it.

Don't know.

Had a season in Florida as HC where they won 51 games. So, not a complete unknown.

Internal promotion - asst. HC

No idea.

3 years as AHL affiliate HC.

With the exception of a few guys, most you pointed out were an internal promotion or had a relationship with the GM who hired them. So, really, teams very rarely hire complete unknowns.

I never said complete unknowns, you're moving the goalposts from AHL hires with limited NHL experience to unknowns. The point is all those guy weren't retreads, so why is it only acceptable for us to hire a retread? If we promote Bell, would that be suddenly acceptable hire to you now that you've seen a bunch of other teams hire internal?

If you want to immediately deem it a poor choice if/when we hire a guy without a proven NHL track record, be my guest, it's not a particularly rational thing to do, given you likely won't know anything about whether or not the guy is or isn't qualified,

 

[GCK]

PR and marketing should play zero role in hockey decisions. The rest of your responses are simply you backtracking.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

This guys been hating on them since they took over and all he did was defend the last management group and patronize people. His opinion doesnt matter its an agenda. But good on you with the level headed response.

You are right to trust them, they are doing exactly the opposite of the previous regime. Taking their time, evaluating and enacting a legitimate well thought out plan. No emotional responses, no unnecessary trades just to make them. Its been a long time since this organization and hockey ops have been run by real professionals. Sens fans especially all the new ones that are on twitter that dont represent the fan base at all just have never seen this type of management. These are the people that loved Pierre. Summer of pierre lol look how that worked out. this franchise has been set back 5 years. Its a big mess to clean up but thankfully we have committed ownership and methodical management. The last time we had management like this was with Marshall Johnston which built this team into a contender for a decade. Most fans that post here werent even sens fans at the time.

After 5 years of losing Dorion and DJ were given a pass, but Staios is getting raked over the coals BEFORE he hires a new coach? The agenda couldn't be more obvious.

It's time to step back and see if Staios can get this team pointed in the right direction. They have made moves I've really liked and some I'm not completely sold on, but they seem to be following a process and doing things methodically rather than applying the scattershot methods of the previous group.

 

[senswon]

Julien wants in eh

 

[BankStreetParade]

The discussion was fans evaluating the quality of the hire. If you want to reframe it as whether it's good business sense to hire a name brand vs a lesser known commodity, that's a different discussion, however. if the team's philosophy is to put winning first and winning will be the tool to entice fans, then we're right back where we started. DeBrincat was a great PR move, so was Chychrun, but does that make either of them smart trades?

Reframing it? It's the same conversation. It's not different just because you say it is, lol. PR and marketing have always played a role in professional sports, this isn't some sudden revelation. I'm not saying 50% of the decision is potential on-ice results and 50% is PR and marketing but everyone knows that these things play some role in the hiring/signing process.

To the second bolded part, what's the point you're making? No one is saying that a potential PR boost from a coaching hire should receive more consideration than potential results. But there's optics to consider in this case. It doesn't matter if Staios/Andlauer have been on the job for less than a year, we have the results we have over the last 10 years. Fans watched the last owner cheap out on every aspect of the organization, from top to bottom. That's what the new guys are contending with. Of course, it's not their fault. Is it fair to them? No. It's a pretty crap situation to be walking into and I don't envy them. But, they inherited this thing, for better or for worse. They need to be hyper aware of the optics surrounding the team as they proceed. Hiring another inexperienced coach, when this team has only known that since the Murray hiring, is objectively a bad idea. It doesn't matter if you put winning first, you're creating an environment for doubt to creep in which will ultimately undermine the rest of your decision-making.

If you have another shitty start to the season, it's a much much more salient argument to make that the experienced, veteran coach with the good resume will know how to turn things around rather than the inexperienced, first-time HC. It's not even debatable.

Because that's how long it will take to see the fruits of the hire? I mean, maybe you'll have a better idea sooner than 82 games, I'll grant that, but you certainly can't know before the season starts, even if we hire a guy with experience, we won't truly know if it's the right hire until they perform or not.

You're still arguing possibility vs probability. I'm not going to keep rehashing the same points about this. I think I've made my point crystal clear, at this point.

I never said complete unknowns, you're moving the goalposts from AHL hires with limited NHL experience to unknowns. The point is all those guy weren't retreads, so why is it only acceptable for us to hire a retread? If we promote Bell, would that be suddenly acceptable hire to you now that you've seen a bunch of other teams hire internal?

Unknowns = no NHL HC experience or no relationship with the hiring GM. So they are unknown quantities in coaching at that level or for that team. Not moving any goalposts, relax.

If you want to immediately deem it a poor choice if/when we hire a guy without a proven NHL track record, be my guest, it's not a particularly rational thing to do, given you likely won't know anything about whether or not the guy is or isn't qualified,

Given it's likelier for a guy with no proven NHL track record to falter than to succeed, I would say it's completely rational to feel like it's a poor choice.

Honestly, I feel like this conversation can wrap up now. I don't feel like another inexperienced coach is what this team needs and you seem to truly believe that no matter who Staios picks, it'll be the right person for the job. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Julien wants in eh

Hire him!

 

[Icelevel]

Hire him!

Julien wants in eh

Could definitely see him working well with alfie. I’d be down for it.
Most similar to JMartin but an upgrade at the same time.

 

[Micklebot]

Reframing it? It's the same conversation. It's not different just because you say it is, lol. PR and marketing have always played a role in professional sports, this isn't some sudden revelation. I'm not saying 50% of the decision is potential on-ice results and 50% is PR and marketing but everyone knows that these things play some role in the hiring/signing process.

To the second bolded part, what's the point you're making? No one is saying that a potential PR boost from a coaching hire should receive more consideration than potential results. But there's optics to consider in this case. It doesn't matter if Staios/Andlauer have been on the job for less than a year, we have the results we have over the last 10 years. Fans watched the last owner cheap out on every aspect of the organization, from top to bottom. That's what the new guys are contending with. Of course, it's not their fault. Is it fair to them? No. It's a pretty crap situation to be walking into and I don't envy them. But, they inherited this thing, for better or for worse. They need to be hyper aware of the optics surrounding the team as they proceed. Hiring another inexperienced coach, when this team has only known that since the Murray hiring, is objectively a bad idea. It doesn't matter if you put winning first, you're creating an environment for doubt to creep in which will ultimately undermine the rest of your decision-making.

If you have another shitty start to the season, it's a much much more salient argument to make that the experienced, veteran coach with the good resume will know how to turn things around rather than the inexperienced, first-time HC. It's not even debatable.

You're still arguing possibility vs probability. I'm not going to keep rehashing the same points about this. I think I've made my point crystal clear, at this point.

Unknowns = no NHL HC experience. So they are unknown quantities in coaching at that level. Not moving any goalposts, relax.

Given it's likelier for a guy with no proven NHL track record to falter than to succeed, I would say it's completely rational to feel like it's a poor choice.

Honestly, I feel like this conversation can wrap up now. I don't feel like another inexperienced coach is what this team needs and you seem to truly believe that no matter who Staios picks, it'll be the right person for the job. Let's just leave it at that.

Yes, reframe it. That's what you've done and I'm not really interested in that conversation, I'm talking about hockey decisions, not business ones, though as I said, the argument can be made that the best business decision is o do what's best from an on ice perspective, because it's a hell of a lot easier to market winning than a name brand coach.

When you start making hockey decisions based on marketing and PR, that's when you start losing more games than not, and you can have a lot more difficulties marketing your team.

In terms of whether a coaching hire works out, only time will tell. If you want to be upset about it before have at it,

Right now; in the east, Toronto, Tampa, Carolina, and Washington are all playoff teams with coaches who didn't have prior NHL HC experience, Boston hired a guy with 1 and a half years of NHL HC experience and was only available due to a conduct issue, and NYI a guy with a 3 years. In the West, Edmonton, LAK and Colorado and Nsh are all running with guys on their first team. That's half the playoff teams. The guy many want, Berube, was just fired from his first team where he won a cup in his first go, It isn't as rare as you make it out to be. Meanwhile, the Flyers went with Vet Torterella, with no success, Cgy got no results with Sutter the last go around despite a wealth of past results, LA actually fired their experienced guy mid season, Ruff with all his experience got one successfull year out of four in NJ.

 

[Micklebot]

Julien wants in eh

Feels like Boudreau all over again...

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Hire him!

Hire him and make Chris Kelly the Associate Coach and probably successor.

 

[Tuna99]

This is Brady Tkachuk using his contacts in St Louis to get Dj some good press and build him up a bit (not surprised since Brady got here lots of rumours about Sens come out of St Loios)

 

[Micklebot]

Im far less concerned about the name of the coach we hire and more interested in the attributes they bring.

We need a guy that holds players accountable
We need a detail oriented guy
We need a teacher
We need a focus on defensive play from all 5 skaters

I'd like a coach that preaches physical play.
I'd also like a coach that plays more of a higher pressure system rather than a a more passive system like what Boucher ran.

If that guy is Berube, Julien or Gruden, it doesn't matter, what matters is the end results.

 

[Duncstar]

My predictions

Berube to Toronto
Keefe to Pitt
Sullivan to NJ
Brindamour to Seattle
Hakstel to Columbus
Blysma to Carolina
Nelson to LA
McClelland to Ottawa

I hate you so much (and by that I mean mad respect). I feel like you listened to tsn 1200 this morning. GCK, you got some solid guesses in there.

 

[Cosmix]

I hate you so much (and by that I mean mad respect). I feel like you listened to tsn 1200 this morning. GCK, you got some solid guesses in there.

8 predictions. Let's see what happens.

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

So should we add Montgomery to the list?

 

[Gil Gunderson]

I’m curious as to why so many people want Julien but are selling McLellan short? They probably would have had very similar careers if McLellan had a historical playoff performance from a goalie like Julien had with Thomas.

 

[Senovision]

I bet Dave Allison is available....just kidding...
Could you imagine??

 

[Gil Gunderson]

So should we add Montgomery to the list?

Bro the NHL isn’t ready for the elite Forsberg/Korpisalo rotation.

 

[LevelingSolo]

Julien would be good

Still want Berube though

 

[Ouroboros]

You'll probably see some movement on Berube once the Leafs win game 7 and he realizes he's not getting that gig.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I’m actually really excited for this offseason.

I know, I’m probably setting myself up for disappointment, but I can’t help it!

Anyone else feel this way?

 

[Gil Gunderson]

I’m actually really excited for this offseason.

I know, I’m probably setting myself up for disappointment, but I can’t help it!

Anyone else feel this way?

I was excited the last two offseasons, so I’ll try something a little different this time.