The Chara Dilemma

[GloryDaze4877]

I started this conversation in the GDT after watching the game last night and thinking on it. Am hoping for some good conversation on this topic and not reactionary posts. This is not based on one game, it's what I am seeing all this year, carrying over from last season.

Here was what I said earlier:



Listen, I get it. He's the Captain, he signed a long term deal, he helped lead this franchise back, and it's probably 99.9999999% certain that the B's don't deal Chara.

But they should.

If Belechick were coach/GM of the B's, he would already be on the phone, trying to move him for picks or younger players. Football's roster is larger, so it makes it easier to replace veteran players when their games start to fall off. In hockey, because of the smaller roster, it's much harder to replace the production and leadership when you deal a vet who is still playing at an above average level most of he time.

Just because it's the hard thing to do, doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do (for the team).

 

[Glove Malfunction]

I think it's really a stretch to say it's the right thing to do though. I know you (and a few others) don't think he's still a #1, but he really is. He's not gonna be in the running for any more Norris trophies, but he's still a legit #1. And trading a #1D rarely makes your team better. I can't think of a scenario where trading Chara makes your team better, so I just don't see how that's the right thing to do.

 

[Junior37]

Agreed... He doesn't fit the up tempo game

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I think it's really a stretch to say it's the right thing to do though. I know you (and a few others) don't think he's still a #1, but he really is. He's not gonna be in the running for any more Norris trophies, but he's still a legit #1. And trading a #1D rarely makes your team better. I can't think of a scenario where trading Chara makes your team better, so I just don't see how that's the right thing to do.

This is an awfully small set of parameters.

I agree that dealing Chara doesn't make this team better right now, but maybe the difference is that I don't see this team as a legit Cup threat for the next couple of seasons at least.

Trading Chara does make the team worse in the short term? As a fan and not an owner...who cares? I'm concerned about making this team a legitimate contender for the Cup in the near future, not wallowing around .500 for the next 5 years and never getting over the hump.

Also, you mentioned this in the GDT, about Chara still being a #1...I don't have the time this instant, but I will come up with a list of 30 D I would rather have given the B's current situation. It won't be hard, there were three of them on the ice for Nashville last night (maybe four).

 

[Glove Malfunction]

This is an awfully small set of parameters.

I agree that dealing Chara doesn't make this team better right now, but maybe the difference is that I don't see this team as a legit Cup threat for the next couple of seasons at least.

Trading Chara does make the team worse in the short term? As a fan and not an owner...who cares? I'm concerned about making this team a legitimate contender for the Cup in the near future, not wallowing around .500 for the next 5 years and never getting over the hump.

Also, you mentioned this in the GDT, about Chara still being a #1...I don't have the time this instant, but I will come up with a list of 30 D I would rather have given the B's current situation. It won't be hard, there were three of them on the ice for Nashville last night (maybe four).

The fact that you think there might be more than two Dmen from NSH you think are upgrades over Chara says a lot. And it's not good.

You make a valid point about getting better for the future. I'm just not sure there's a scenario out there where that's really that realistic.

 

[TP]

I'd agree. I would like to see Chara dealt to a contender soon. Free up that monster hit and maybe get some prospects in return.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

The fact that you think there might be more than two Dmen from NSH you think are upgrades over Chara says a lot. And it's not good.

You make a valid point about getting better for the future. I'm just not sure there's a scenario out there where that's really that realistic.

That's not what I said.

What I said is that there are three (maybe four) D on Nashville that I would want over Chara...given the current situation in Boston.

Are you trying to tell me that given where the B's are right now (in transition), you would not take Weber (30), Josi (25), Jones (21), and maybe even Ekholm (25) over Chara?

IMO, both Weber and Josi are better than Chara NOW. Jones is not that far off and what, 17 years younger? Ekholm is not as good, but he's younger and I am thinking about the other assets the B's could get in addition.

 

[Mount Kramer Cameras]

I imagine he'd only be willing to up sticks to one of the very best teams, and none of the very best teams can afford him, can they?

 

[jgatie]

That's not what I said.

What I said is that there are three (maybe four) D on Nashville that I would want over Chara...given the current situation in Boston.

Are you trying to tell me that given where the B's are right now (in transition), you would not take Weber (30), Josi (25), Jones (21), and maybe even Ekholm (25) over Chara?

IMO, both Weber and Josi are better than Chara NOW. Jones is not that far off and what, 17 years younger? Ekholm is not as good, but he's younger and I am thinking about the other assets the B's could get in addition.

I too would take any one of them over Chara. But you are not going to get any one of them without subtracting a hell of a lot more than Chara. So the question is not whether you would take Weber over Chara, the question is whether you would lose Krejci/Erikkson, Krug, and a prospect and risk not being able to sign Marchand to have Weber over Chara.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

That's not what I said.

What I said is that there are three (maybe four) D on Nashville that I would want over Chara...given the current situation in Boston.

Are you trying to tell me that given where the B's are right now (in transition), you would not take Weber (30), Josi (25), Jones (21), and maybe even Ekholm (25) over Chara?

IMO, both Weber and Josi are better than Chara NOW. Jones is not that far off and what, 17 years younger? Ekholm is not as good, but he's younger and I am thinking about the other assets the B's could get in addition.

I just reread your post, and you're right, I misread it originally. Given how you framed it, yeah, I'd probably take any of those 4. Not like we could possibly get any of them, but that's a completely different matter.

I still think that you'd be hard pressed to find 30 Dmen who are better than Chara right now. Not to say you can't find 30 (or even 50) you'd rather have given our current situation. Two different things. I still think it's clear that Chara's still a #1.

Let me ask you this though...Given that Chara has a full NTC and given that we're very unlikely to be trading him to anyone but a contender, what do you see as a reasonable return if we were to trade Chara? Even first round picks from a contender don't do us much good. We'd have to get a couple of really high level D prospects (or at least one such prospect, plus more) to make it worthwhile. You seem to have a good handle on a lot of other teams' pipelines - what's out there that we could possibly make a match with?

 

[Boston Bruno]

Chara controls his own fate.

If he asked to be traded, I am certain there would be a plethora of options for him.

Would Boston be better off? Depends what we get back.
Same can be said for any trade of any player on a long term deal.

 

[DKH]

I keep him - I believe he's still a good player. He's perfect guy as Trotman, Morrow, Miller beeK in.

I agree with Joe 95% of time but this is the 5%

 

[Hali33]

Even if this was something you wanted to do, I suspect you would need a very attractive destination ( i.e. a great chance at a Cup) for Chara to give up the captaincy and move. Not sure there's going to be a match there let alone Chara being willing to go.

 

[Krupp]

When I think of this, I don't think of the returns so much as I do what leaves the core essentially, to begin with.

If Chara leaves, who is the #1 Dman then? Seids? McQuaid? Miller? Krug?

We all have already agreed before that if one of our defenseman goes down, we're in real trouble. You trade Chara, what do you think is going to happen to the D then? It's going to be even worse. Do you really want Seidenberg and McQuaid playing more minutes than they should? Because that's what's going to happen.

The only way I'd be on board is if a veteran Dman who's skilled enough to be a #1 until some of our younger Dmen come long is traded back our way....but do you really think other teams will give up a player like that for a guy like Chara? If they did I doubt it'd be the kind of defenseman we need, more like a couple of prospects and draft picks.

So no, you don't deal Chara. You keep him and let him play his years out here. He's tremendously important in grooming some of these younger dmen. He's important because he's a leader, one of the few this team has at the moment. He's one of the few (aside from last night) that does show up to play every night, even if he's older and slower. He's not the 'fire-breathing dragon' he was of years ago, but he's still better than any of our other D yet, all around. He leads all of them in goals and only Krug has him matched in points...

Trade him, and watch what happens to this team then. The guys weren't happy when Boychuk left town; I can only imagine how much of a shake up it'd be to this team if Chara were sent packing as well.

 

[Gee Wally]

I believe in trading anyone that makes the team stronger.

Having said that threads that go into 'must trade' or 'must fire' without viable sound alternatives or returns are absolute bull **** to me. Rabble, rabble, rabble....

So, my first inclination is to recognize that time is wearing on our captain. The first step needs to be to limit his minutes and begin thinking of him more in a second pairing role.

He and the team would benefit by that short term.

If the right deal was to come along and if he could be convinced to accept it then you go down that path. But it sure has hell better make for an improved team.

 

[Sturm]

Only reason you trade Chara is if this tea absolutely craps itself before the trade deadline. Yes he isn't what he once was, but he's still a good defenseman, and we've all seen how bad this team is w/o him in the lineup. Managing his minutes would be ideal, but not likely to happen give the clowns we throw out there on a nightly basis.

 

[rudos1]

Who would be the trade partners for Chara? Even if he agrees we won't get a decent return. Let him play out his contract unless they throw someone like Hall at us...

 

[CDN24]

I believe in trading anyone that makes the team stronger.

Having said that threads that go into 'must trade' or 'must fire' without viable sound alternatives or returns are absolute bull **** to me. Rabble, rabble, rabble....

So, my first inclination is to recognize that time is wearing on our captain. The first step needs to be to limit his minutes and begin thinking of him more in a second pairing role.

He and the team would benefit by that short term.

If the right deal was to come along and if he could be convinced to accept it then you go down that path. But it sure has hell better make for an improved team.

Disclaimer- Habs fan in a family of Bruins fans.

In numerous discussions with my Bruins fan family we came to the conclusion that they should have traded him before last year instead of Boychuck. While it would have been unpopular the writing was on the wall after the playoff loss to the habs and the previous years loss to the Hawks. Teams with speed were starting to expose him, but the return at that point would have still been massive. Maybe Dallas who were in need of D at that point includes an unproven rookie in Klingberg. They could have kept the young Boychuck as well.

That is all water under the bridge so do you trade him now? I would , age is catching up and he will continue to decline and his value will decline. But for a contender at the deadline Chara could push them over the top and teams will pay a premium for that. Yes it will be mostly futures coming back but as a non fan I don't see the Bruins being a cup contender over the next couple of years anyway so why not try to build for the future. As the OP pointed out dynasties like the Pats always move the aging stars for youth to buld the next winner. Loyalty is one thing but if Ray Bourque could be moved so can Chara.

Anyway that's this habs fan's five cents worth

 

[GarbageGoal]

Chara will not be traded as long as this team is in the hunt, which surprisingly, they are. And a lot of that has to do with Chara and the fact he is still the best defenseman we have.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I keep him - I believe he's still a good player. He's perfect guy as Trotman, Morrow, Miller beeK in.

I agree with Joe 95% of time but this is the 5%

Is he still a "good" player, yes, absolutely. The "perfect guy" for those youngsters? Depends on what you are talking about. Chara's work ethic is legendary, so he obviously sets a good example for the young guys, but as far as on-ice stuff goes, it has gotten to the point IMO that you need to pair him with a very specific "type" D.

After watching almost a third of the season, it has become apparent (to me anyway) that Chara has lost a great deal more than the proverbial "step". This is a departure for me. I always thought that Chara was a guy that could be extremely effective even through the end of his contract, but now I am pretty sure that's not the case. Because he was never a fast guy and relied more on his incredible reach/range for his effectiveness, I didn't think age would be as much an issue.

From an offensive standpoint, he appears much slower than in the past. Not sure if that's due to the injury or just time? The issue is that it appears to me that he's still trying to make plays as if it was 2-3 years ago, not what his skills are in the present. Against Calgary, he puts himself in a bad position and coughs up the puck to Gaudreau for the first goal. In the OT, he tries to make a play and ends up forcing a pass that is easily picked off and results in the GWG for the Flames. These things happen to players all the time, but they are happening to Chara with far greater frequency than in the last couple of seasons. To the point that it's very noticeable on a game to game basis.

Defensively, he's still very good, but even there, you can see the cracks. His size and strength gave him a huge advantage in the past when it came to puck battles, but now he is losing more. I see much smaller F's knocking him off the puck with regularity, which has never happened before. He's so tall, I'm wondering if the knee injury is having an adverse effect on his balance, making him more susceptible?

When it comes to transitioning the puck, he is a liability in his own end and on the PP. He absolutely needs a partner like Colin Miller, who can pass and has the wheels and "escapability" to offset Chara's weakness. Kevan Miller is not that guy, and I'm not sure Trotman is mobile enough either? There was a play last night that I talked about in the GDT. Preds dump it in and change, Trotman retrieves and gives it to Chara who is in the left corner of the B's end (facing out). He still has Trotman behind the net as his safety valve and Ferraro swings back low, giving him another option. Instead, I can only assume that he was looking for a long pass on the left boards because he held onto the puck forever, allowing the Nashville forechecker to get in on him. At that point it was too late to go with his other options and instead he was forced to flip the puck high out to center ice, giving up possession and allowing the Preds to come back into the B's end, now with fresh legs after the change. This sort of thing is happening far too regularly, and I think it's going to get worse over the next two and a half seasons.

Another question I have is...when a guy has been such a stud for the last decade plus, how is he going to react when his skills start to diminish and he should be taking a secondary role? How does the coach react to this as well? Does he continue to try to use him in situations he's not suited for anymore? I am not sure this is going to end all that well.

To everyone that says that the B's don't have anyone ready to step in...I agree. If Chara were dealt, the B's would have to make another move to acquire a younger D-man to fill that gap, or get that player in the Chara deal. Tough, tough situation and it underscores why rebuilding on the fly without multiple bad years and high picks, is so hard to do. If you deal Chara, then you have wasted another year of Krejci and Bergeron in their primes (and Loui I guess) as well. The thing is, I don't think this team is a Cup contender, so you are basically wasting that year anyway. If you agree with that, then speed up the process. Get rid of the guys that in 2-3 years when you are ready to contend, are going to be too old to help. Bergeron and Krejci will still be viable. Loui, Chara, and Seidenberg will not.

 

[rcduthie77]

I keep him - I believe he's still a good player. He's perfect guy as Trotman, Morrow, Miller beeK in.

I agree with Joe 95% of time but this is the 5%

Torn here, Dan & Joe are two of the posters I respect the most but I have to agree with Dan on this one.

Unless someone makes an offer on Chara that is just too ridiculous to pass up on then keep him.

He's still a #1D, not a Norris guy but one thing I always look at is when he does something good on the ice, big hit, fight (been a while), goal, great pass, etc. It still lifts the team up. Watch the enthusiasm after Big Z puts one in the net, the other 4 Bruins on the ice jump out of their skates.

He still carries the heart & soul of this team, I want to see him retire a Bruin personally.

Plus statistically speaking, he's still delivering big minutes, effective PK, and he looks better on the offensive side now that his PP minutes are down.

 

[njbruin*]

When I think of this, I don't think of the returns so much as I do what leaves the core essentially, to begin with.

If Chara leaves, who is the #1 Dman then? Seids? McQuaid? Miller? Krug?

We all have already agreed before that if one of our defenseman goes down, we're in real trouble. You trade Chara, what do you think is going to happen to the D then? It's going to be even worse. Do you really want Seidenberg and McQuaid playing more minutes than they should? Because that's what's going to happen.

The only way I'd be on board is if a veteran Dman who's skilled enough to be a #1 until some of our younger Dmen come long is traded back our way....but do you really think other teams will give up a player like that for a guy like Chara? If they did I doubt it'd be the kind of defenseman we need, more like a couple of prospects and draft picks.

So no, you don't deal Chara. You keep him and let him play his years out here. He's tremendously important in grooming some of these younger dmen. He's important because he's a leader, one of the few this team has at the moment. He's one of the few (aside from last night) that does show up to play every night, even if he's older and slower. He's not the 'fire-breathing dragon' he was of years ago, but he's still better than any of our other D yet, all around. He leads all of them in goals and only Krug has him matched in points...

Trade him, and watch what happens to this team then. The guys weren't happy when Boychuk left town; I can only imagine how much of a shake up it'd be to this team if Chara were sent packing as well.

If Chara stays who is the #1 Dman ???

As you and others stated though , we can't expect trading Chara will bring us back a true #1 or even #2D , he's way overvalued by our fans. We'd need to add much more to get back a true #1 defender.

Basically, we're stuck with him unless Donnie wants to go full rebuild and dump him for pennies on the dollar at the deadline .

 

[GloryDaze4877]

I believe in trading anyone that makes the team stronger.

Having said that threads that go into 'must trade' or 'must fire' without viable sound alternatives or returns are absolute bull **** to me. Rabble, rabble, rabble....

So, my first inclination is to recognize that time is wearing on our captain. The first step needs to be to limit his minutes and begin thinking of him more in a second pairing role.

He and the team would benefit by that short term.

If the right deal was to come along and if he could be convinced to accept it then you go down that path. But it sure has hell better make for an improved team.

Improved when? Now, this year? Or two years from now?

I had this team pegged as a slightly above .500 team that would be in the 8-12 mix for the playoffs. They are doing slightly better than I thought, but not a ton.



Does anyone think that they are a legit Cup contender?

Does anyone think that they can become a legitimate Cup contender with pieces that are available to them around the league?


I don't.


I'm not looking at this team getting better, I am looking at the 2017-18 B's being contenders.

 

[njbruin*]

Only reason you trade Chara is if this tea absolutely craps itself before the trade deadline. Yes he isn't what he once was, but he's still a good defenseman, and we've all seen how bad this team is w/o him in the lineup. Managing his minutes would be ideal, but not likely to happen give the clowns we throw out there on a nightly basis.

We've seen how bad the team is with Irwin and with other rookies getting their feet wet. Sure Chara was a stabilizing factor coming back , but it wasn't teh complete reason the team looked better.

 

[Stone Clode]

I personally don't think this is the year to trade him, if they do.

One, they won't really have any conceivable way of making the team better in the short term. There is a large gap between Chara and the next player on the roster in terms of pure defensive ability. This is not to say Chara is an elite defensive player, but he is still significantly better than the next player on this roster in terms of defensive talent. In terms of offense, they do have plenty here to replace that with relative ease. They aren't going to get much of anything in a deal that softens that blow. Potentially down the road, yes, but a defense that has struggled mightily this year WITH Chara will get significantly worse. And while I understand not wanting to toil in mediocrity forever, there's no easy well to just tell the majority of the fanbase (and your money-hungry owner) that you're essentially just throwing this season away.

Two, it is going to be difficult to convince a team to trade for him this season. While a team certainly would like to add him to their lineup in an attempt to put their team 'over the top', they also have to take an additional year of him at nearly $7 million, and then his final year at $4 million. I am strictly talking about this in terms of cap hit, not actual dollars. Teams cannot really afford to just 'make' that space, without making huge sacrifices. It would a hell of a lot more sense to entertain offers for him next season, as teams would get the added benefit of $3 million dollars in cap relief the year following. A $4 million contract, especially with the likelihood that the cap goes up in each of the next two years (extremely high it's at least 1 of them), then teams can more than stomach that for what he brings and might not have to lose much of their current roster makeup.

To follow up on this, people here regularly mention Anaheim. Anaheim has to deal with a nearly $2 million dollar cap hit increase on Ryan Kesler's contract, which is set to kick in next year, John Gibson's new contract kicking in next season, Sami Vatanen, Hampus Lindholm, Rickard Rakell, and Frederik Andersen are all RFAs at season's end, Simon Despres's contract extension kicks in, and they have little money coming off the books, and you want them to take on an additional $7 million per year with Chara, while likely getting rid of little? Letting them figure out the cap situation in the offseason and proposing them a Chara deal next season, when they know they'll get the cap relief from his deal in 2017 makes more sense there.

I think a Chara trade will happen eventually. I just don't think there is a realistic trade partner out there at the moment. You're unlikely to find a team that is going to be willing to take on Chara's contract for an additional year at $7 million, regardless of what he brings to the table. You can't even convince yourself, a hometown fan, that he's the same player anymore, and definitely not a number 1 defenseman. How the heck are you going to convince an NHL GM to not only give important assets away, but to take on that contract? You probably aren't. His value doesn't hold much weight to a non-contending team, either, because while he can be a great, great complimentary piece, he isn't at a stage in his career where he can help change a team so much that they go from outside-looking-in to cup contender.