The better career: Crosby or Ovechkin?

[The90]

Nope.

Crosby was not, and never has been a two way player, no matter how many times his fans and his prominent media advocates say it (notice how they never post any defensive stats to back it up).

Over the past 3 seasons the Penguins have given up more 5v5 and ES goals against with Sidney Crosby on the ice than any other player in the NHL. Here are some stats that Crosby fans will not click on:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Back in 2009, Crosby's defensive statistics were basically identical to Ovechkin's. (Crosby had 73 non-PP goals against in 77 games to 74 non-PP goals against for Ovie in 79 games). The 5v5 stats are also mirror images.

I'll say that again: Sidney Crosby was surrendering the same, or more, goals against than Ovechkin was.

I think Crosby's biggest advantage are the rampant baseless falsehoods his fans are willing to tell for him.

Looks like everyone agrees with you.

…………… wait

 

[Coffee]

@sanscosm MJ turning back the time

 

[filinski77]

Crosby was the clear MVP on his team in 18/19. Kessel and Malkin may have been close in points but were a -19 and and -25 vs. + 18 for Crosby. He was clearly carrying the team. Not sure he is behind McDavid that season even if the Oilers make the playoffs.

OV's 2nd place in 14/15 was no more Hart worthy than Crosby's 18/19 season as he benefitted from a very weak year by the elite forwards and possibly Benn not being on a playoff team.

Both the players and Hart voters thought Crosby was a Top 5 player in 2021. MacKiinnon only had three more points, and one less than his teammmate, and finished ahead of him in Hart voting. Barkov had four less points and was 6th. Marchand was solid that year but he played on argubaly the best line in hockey.

In 2015 Ovechkin was the best forward in the league. 1st in goals and 4th in points. Only 6 points back from the Ross winner, and had anywhere from 15 to 25 more goals than the couple guys ahead of him. It was one of the most dominant goal scoring seasons of the last 25 years.

In 2019 Crosby was not even remotely close to the top-4 players in the league. He finished 21st in goals and 5th in points. 28 points behind the Ross winner.

 

[filinski77]

1. Hardware
Ovechkin has 1.6x larger hardware and would have 2x larger if include Ovi's awards robbed by NHL; and would have 3x larger if Malkin didn't help Sid and NHL by awarding weakest Smythes ever.
Ovi>>Sid

2. Leadership
Ovechkin makes his team better: WSH P% .615 with Ovi; .513 w/o Ovi;
Sid makes his team worse: PIT P% .601 with Sid; .633 w/o Sid:
Ovi>>Sid

3. Peak
Ovechkin outpaced SidMalkin duo 3 years in a row (when they factored in each other by 40%+)
Ovi>>Sid

4. Position
Ovechkin as an all-time winger is higher (among 3247 wingers) than Sid as an all-time center (among 1976 centers) and Ovi has more primary points and TGF:
Ovi>Sid

5. Hits
Ovi>>>Sid

6. Highlights
Ovi>>>>Sid

Sid has media hype and generational help from Malkin.
The media even kicked generational star from top100 to make Sid shine. It's disgusting.
Sid is hiding his "-" minuses behind Malkin. It's disgusting.
Sid was whinny and dirty. It was disgusting.

Sid is on Thornton tier without Malkin.

Someone can say Sid dragged his team to the SCF 2009, but still Malkin factored in 39% of Sid's points in that PO.

Hardware: Agree

Leadership: Disagree. While I do think that Crosby's "intangibles" get overstated by many. I would never say "Ovi>>Sid" in this way. I think they provide a lot of great traits - Crosby has the cool demeanor, Ovi plays through everything he can, gets in scrums and has the passion. I think they are both great leaders.

Peak: Agree that Ovi's was better

Position: Disagree. We all know the Center is the more important position. With that importance also comes the systematic fact that it's easier to get assists etc. since the play comes through the middle more. But realistically there is absolutely no reason to really give some kind of 'advantage' in a comparison to Ovechkin here. Both Crosby and Ovi are top-5 in their position all time.

Physical play (Hits): Agree that this is a hugely underrated part of Ovechkins play style. Players literally get scared when Ovi comes to them for a hit - and that has a huge "2-way" player impact.

HOWEVER - you can't talk about Ovi's physical play without admitting that Crosby is still a better 2-way player and give him that advantage in your comparison. Do I think that Crosby is some kind of crazy elite 2-way player that is amazing at defense? No definitely not. But he's better than Ovi there and it's very biased to include physical play and not the rest of it.

Highlights: Agree... but at the same time this has nothing to do with who had a better career.

"Sid is on Thornton tier without Malkin."
This is just nonsense. Do I think Sid benefited from playing a lot with Malkin? Yes for sure. But Sid is still a generational player with or without Malkin.

You gotta admit you're making Caps/Ovi supporters look bad with this kind of analysis. I try to be as data driven and objective as possible - but you have some pretty glaring biases here.

 

[Nathaniel]

The belief of ovechkin being better needs to be studied by the worlds greatest investigators. I cannot fathom it.

 

[M88K]

Pretty easy to take Ovechkin for me

 

[wetcoast]

Hardware: Agree

Leadership: Disagree. While I do think that Crosby's "intangibles" get overstated by many. I would never say "Ovi>>Sid" in this way. I think they provide a lot of great traits - Crosby has the cool demeanor, Ovi plays through everything he can, gets in scrums and has the passion. I think they are both great leaders.

Peak: Agree that Ovi's was better

Position: Disagree. We all know the Center is the more important position. With that importance also comes the systematic fact that it's easier to get assists etc. since the play comes through the middle more. But realistically there is absolutely no reason to really give some kind of 'advantage' in a comparison to Ovechkin here. Both Crosby and Ovi are top-5 in their position all time.

Physical play (Hits): Agree that this is a hugely underrated part of Ovechkins play style. Players literally get scared when Ovi comes to them for a hit - and that has a huge "2-way" player impact.

HOWEVER - you can't talk about Ovi's physical play without admitting that Crosby is still a better 2-way player and give him that advantage in your comparison. Do I think that Crosby is some kind of crazy elite 2-way player that is amazing at defense? No definitely not. But he's better than Ovi there and it's very biased to include physical play and not the rest of it.

Highlights: Agree... but at the same time this has nothing to do with who had a better career.

"Sid is on Thornton tier without Malkin."
This is just nonsense. Do I think Sid benefited from playing a lot with Malkin? Yes for sure. But Sid is still a generational player with or without Malkin.

That's all fair and Ovi does have the peak and best goalscorer of all time argument.

You gotta admit you're making Caps/Ovi supporters look bad with this kind of analysis. I try to be as data driven and objective as possible - but you have some pretty glaring biases here.

There are 2 guys that consistently do this and that's probably what drives 75% of any thread comparing these 2 guys.

Look I prefer Gretzky over Mario but people who prefer Mario don't go to outrageous lengths to discredit Gretzky, not sure why some people do this with Crosby, including a few select Oiler fans here.

 

[Misery74]

When it's all said and done, who will go down as having the better career?

Sid:

3 cups
4 nation's gold

View attachment 998838

Ovy:

All time leader in goals in NHL history. A record that will likely never be broken.
1 cup

View attachment 998839

Ovechkin made hockey important in Washington. He’s created generations of fans here.

His presence on the ice only part of his impact.

 

[waitin425]

It's honestly all about preference at this point. When Ovechkin passes Gretz's goal scoring record it will cement him as a top player of all time.

There is no big four anymore. You have to make room for Ovechkin and Crosby.

I love Crosby. Prefer him even over Ovechkin. But it is undeniable that they are dead even.

Imagine for a second Ovechkin leads the Caps to the Cup this year and wins the Conn Smythe on top of a season where he passes Gretzky.

Unreal for a 40 year old.

 

[PensandCaps]

Crosby, pretty easily too.

 

[paracord]

Imagine if Pens drafted first in 2004…Crosby and Ovi same team. That’s at-least five cups right there.

I've thought about that many times before. Here in the burgh, we were very disappointed when we lost out on Ovi in that 2004 draft and got this guy named Malkin as a consolation prize.

Evgeni Malkin is a Hall of Fame centerman who scores more points than Ovi per game, both regular season and playoffs, and was as dominant or more than Crosby for large chunks of time in huge playoff situations. He provided the glue for a dominant 2nd line to take the pressure off of the Crosby line.

And they won 3 cups.

I WOULDN'T CHANGE A THING.

 

[Midnight Judges]

HOWEVER - you can't talk about Ovi's physical play without admitting that Crosby is still a better 2-way player and give him that advantage in your comparison. Do I think that Crosby is some kind of crazy elite 2-way player that is amazing at defense? No definitely not. But he's better than Ovi there and it's very biased to include physical play and not the rest of it.

Not only is Crosby not amazing at defense, he’s not even good. Nor is he really asked to contribute much defensively (his wingers do those things), nor should he be. Crosby’s strength is on offense. At any given point in his career, there are hundreds of players who can exceed him defensively, and few ever who equaled or exceeded him offensively. Therefore, Putting him in his own zone to defend match-ups would be just plain dumb - which is why in 20 years none of his coaches have done it.

Crosby’s defensive stats over the course of his career have been similar and often identical to Ovechkin’s. I’m not talking about Xgoals and junk like that. I’m talking about actual goals against. They are the friggin same, and not coincidentally nowhere near the actual great defensive players like Bergeron and Datsyuk etc.

It’s not some meaningful discriminator.

Ovechkin’s physicality otoh, actually exists. With statistical evidence.

There is another piece of statistical evidence for Crosby that I think so-called advanced stats mistake for defense, and that is puck possession. Sidney Crosby is indeed better at puck possession post 2011 or so. And it does count for something. But if that equates to defense, then where are Jagr’s Selke votes?

 

[paracord]

It's honestly all about preference at this point. When Ovechkin passes Gretz's goal scoring record it will cement him as a top player of all time.

There is no big four anymore. You have to make room for Ovechkin and Crosby.

I love Crosby. Prefer him even over Ovechkin. But it is undeniable that they are dead even.

Imagine for a second Ovechkin leads the Caps to the Cup this year and wins the Conn Smythe on top of a season where he passes Gretzky.

Unreal for a 40 year old.

No one ever said Ovi isn't a "top" player of all time. Of course he is.

But if you put him in the category of Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr, and even Crosby, you'd easily see which one doesn't belong.

Ovi is a pure goal scorer, while all those other players did it all.

 

[paracord]

1. Hardware
Ovechkin has 1.6x larger hardware and would have 2x larger if include Ovi's awards robbed by NHL; and would have 3x larger if Malkin didn't help Sid and NHL by awarding weakest Smythes ever.
Ovi>>Sid

2. Leadership
Ovechkin makes his team better: WSH P% .615 with Ovi; .513 w/o Ovi;
Sid makes his team worse: PIT P% .601 with Sid; .633 w/o Sid:
Ovi>>Sid

3. Peak
Ovechkin outpaced SidMalkin duo 3 years in a row (when they factored in each other by 40%+)
Ovi>>Sid

4. Position
Ovechkin as an all-time winger is higher (among 3247 wingers) than Sid as an all-time center (among 1976 centers) and Ovi has more primary points and TGF:
Ovi>Sid

5. Hits
Ovi>>>Sid

6. Highlights
Ovi>>>>Sid

Sid has media hype and generational help from Malkin.
The media even kicked generational star from top100 to make Sid shine. It's disgusting.
Sid is hiding his "-" minuses behind Malkin. It's disgusting.
Sid was whinny and dirty. It was disgusting.

Sid is on Thornton tier without Malkin.

Someone can say Sid dragged his team to the SCF 2009, but still Malkin factored in 39% of Sid's points in that PO.

This is one of the funniest posts ever.

Sid is jumbo Joe.

 

[paracord]

Not only is Crosby not amazing at defense, he’s not even good. Nor is he really asked to contribute much defensively (his wingers do those things), nor should he be. Crosby’s strength is on offense. At any given point in his career, there are hundreds of players who can exceed him defensively, and few ever who equaled or exceeded him offensively. Therefore, Putting him in his own zone to defend match-ups would be just plain dumb - which is why in 20 years none of his coaches have done it.

Crosby’s defensive stats over the course of his career have been similar and often identical to Ovechkin’s. I’m not talking about Xgoals and junk like that. I’m talking about actual goals against. They are the friggin same, and not coincidentally nowhere near the actual great defensive players like Bergeron and Datsyuk etc.

It’s not some meaningful discriminator.

Ovechkin’s physicality otoh, actually exists, with statistical evidence.

There is another piece of statistical evidence for Crosby that I think so-called advanced stats mistake for defense, and that is puck possession. Sidney Crosby is indeed better at puck possession post 2011 or so. And it does count for something. But if that equates to defense, then where are Jagr’s Selke votes?

Crosby's hockey IQ is much greater. He quarterbacks the offense better.

And quite simply, Crosby is all-time elite at 2 major things. He's an all-time elite goal scorer AND an all-time elite playmaker.

Ovechkin is all time elite at one thing.

This is why Ovechkin is never going to be compared to someone like Gretzky or Lemieux as an all-time player. It's also why someone like Mike Bossy, who scored goals at the fastest rate in history in the regular season, isn't in their league, either.

It's why McDavid is considered better than Matthews.

 

[Midnight Judges]

No one ever said Ovi isn't a "top" player of all time. Of course he is.

But if you put him in the category of Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr, and even Crosby, you'd easily see which one doesn't belong.

Ovi is a pure goal scorer, while all those other players did it all.

Uh no, they didn’t do it all. Lemieux Gretzky and Crosby are generationally bad defensively.

Crosby and Gretzky were unphysical finesse players. Crosby fans were constantly claiming he was being abused. Nobody ever worried that Howe or Ovechkin were being abused because they were physical players.

Lemieux and Orr have massive durability weaknesses.

Howe (ever underrated by the younger generations) is the only one anyone could claim “did it all.”

 

[paracord]

Uh no, they didn’t do it all. Lemieux Gretzky and Crosby are generationally bad defensively. Crosby and Gretzky were in physical finesse players.

Lemieux and Orr have massive durability weaknesses.

Howe is the only one anyone could claim did it all.

By "doing it all," I obviously mean on the offensive side. No one is saying Lemieux or Gretzky should have won a Selke.

Lemieux is a +115 all time and scored 13 shorties one year. Crosby is +195 all time.

Ovi is a +65. He's not assigned to shut down the other team's top line centerman and control puck possession like Crosby.

I don't think your defense argument holds up too well.

 

[Midnight Judges]

By "doing it all," I obviously mean on the offensive side. No one is saying Lemieux or Gretzky should have won a Selke.

If Ovechkin doesn’t get credit for his 721 assists towards “doing it all” then certainly Sidney Crosby does not get goal scoring credit for his 617 goals.

 

[SkinsFan09]

We're

Lmao. Ovechkin was not a better hockey player in any season after 2010.

2015, 2018, 2020 you can make the case either way. I think 2015 would tilt Ovechkin, the other two toss up.

2015 - 2nd place MVP and 50 goals
2018: Very even, if you want to go with the guy who led the league in goals you could
2020: Depends how you value 48G in 68 games

Now, overall my answer is still Crosby because I'll always take 3 Cups to 1 and as a center he's a more well-rounded player, but it's actually not that far-fetched for those seasons. And Crosby has not been elite defensively for ages as a counterargument.

 

[paracord]

If Ovechkin doesn’t get credit for his 721 assists towards “doing it all” then certainly Sidney Crosby does not get goal scoring credit for his 617 goals.

So you're now saying that 721 assists in almost 1500 games is "all-time elite" playmaking? Ovi isn't even in the top 200 in assists per game.

But 617 goals is 18th all time, with only 21 people in history cracking 600. 500 goals is like automatic hall of fame.

Are you really arguing that Ovi is as elite at playmaking as Crosby is at goal scoring?

 

[waitin425]

No one ever said Ovi isn't a "top" player of all time. Of course he is.

But if you put him in the category of Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr, and even Crosby, you'd easily see which one doesn't belong.

Ovi is a pure goal scorer, while all those other players did it all.

Ovechkin is not just a pure goal scorer. He will be the greatest goal scorer of all time. Crosby is not the greatest in any category.

On my personal rankings I have Crosby ahead of OV....but its preference at this point. Ovechkin belongs man.

 

[paracord]

Ovechkin is not just a pure goal scorer. He will be the greatest goal scorer of all time. Crosby is not the greatest in any category.

On my personal rankings I have Crosby ahead of OV....but its preference at this point. Ovechkin belongs man.

Belongs where?

 

[Acallabeth]

Crosby's hockey IQ is much greater. He quarterbacks the offense better. And quite simply, Crosby is all-time elite at 2 major things. He's an all-time elite goal scorer AND an all-time elite playmaker.

By what metric is Crosby, who has 3 career 40+ goal seasons, an all-time elite goal scorer?

In fact... by what metric is he an all-time elite playmaker? I looked up and Sid was top 5 in assists 6 times, leading the league once. And I'm not saying it isn't great, but kinda not impressive enough to compare it to Ovechkin's goal scoring, is it?

 

[TheLegend27]

Not only is Crosby not amazing at defense, he’s not even good. Nor is he really asked to contribute much defensively (his wingers do those things), nor should he be. Crosby’s strength is on offense. At any given point in his career, there are hundreds of players who can exceed him defensively, and few ever who equaled or exceeded him offensively. Therefore, Putting him in his own zone to defend match-ups would be just plain dumb - which is why in 20 years none of his coaches have done it.

Crosby’s defensive stats over the course of his career have been similar and often identical to Ovechkin’s. I’m not talking about Xgoals and junk like that. I’m talking about actual goals against. They are the friggin same, and not coincidentally nowhere near the actual great defensive players like Bergeron and Datsyuk etc.

It’s not some meaningful discriminator.

Ovechkin’s physicality otoh, actually exists. With statistical evidence.

There is another piece of statistical evidence for Crosby that I think so-called advanced stats mistake for defense, and that is puck possession. Sidney Crosby is indeed better at puck possession post 2011 or so. And it does count for something. But if that equates to defense, then where are Jagr’s Selke votes?

Crosby’s defense looks good based on the eye test. Not Bergeron level but he’s improved on that end post 2014. Here’s a compilation of his defensive plays, specifically his defensive awareness.

 

[waitin425]

Belongs where?

In the same breath as Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr and Crosby. He is literally passing Gretzky in a category.

It's a big 6 IMO.

Mount Rushmore requires two more spots.