The better career: Crosby or Ovechkin?

[bambamcam4ever]

I would rather have my starter post .905 in a game 7 than .778, so yes, I would. Everyone downplays how clutch MAF is in winner-takes-all situations. After the Capitals' 2009 game 7, Crosby has 3 points in 7 game sevens, so the Pens usually needed great goaltending in game sevens to win.

Turns out all the games matter, not just game 7. Varlamov was bad in the last game but very good the prior 6 games. Penguins win in 5 or 6 with different goalies.

 

[Wings4Life]

A prime ovie and malkin couldn’t even get Russia to medal in 2010 or 2014.

No fault of Malkin's, he led the 2010 Olympics in points per game (and outpaced Crosby and Ovechkin at both tournaments).

 

[TheLegend27]

This debate died in 2017. McDavid is the one who should be compared to Crosby, not Ovechkin.

I think Crosby and Ovi are closer in ability than McDavid and Crosby.

 

[daver]

Thing is - after winning back to back cups, the voters started giving Crosby grace period votes. For example, Crosby somehow finished 2nd in hart voting in 19’, above a McDavid who had a worse roster, more even strength points, and 16% more pts in general. This wasn’t a Taylor Hall type situation, as the Penguins were one of the best teams not far removed from two championships. Even in 2021, Crosby finished 4 over Drai who had 22 more points. I believe it comes down to whether to you value one more Hart win + 7 more Rockets, or one more Art Ross + a few better Art Ross finishes.

Should Crosby get a 3rd place Hart placing in 2008/09 then?

And Crosby was the best 2-way player among the scoring leaders those years.

 

[paracord]

Crosby. Not even that close. He just simply does more as a hockey player, and has won more.

 

[Regal]

Should Crosby get a 3rd place Hart placing in 2008/09 then?

And Crosby was the best 2-way player among the scoring leaders those years.

Maybe 4th. Considering Datsyuk was 2nd team All Star, I don’t think he finishes higher even without Malkin

 

[paracord]

I think Crosby and Ovi are closer in ability than McDavid and Crosby.

I don't know...will Crosby beat McDavid in goals again this year like he did last year?

 

[paracord]

Both are regular season fluff. I think the actual most important and most significant is playoffs points.

Crosby leads playoff points and points per game over Ovechkin by a pretty wide margin.

And he's 6th all time in playoff points.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I think Crosby and Ovi are closer in ability than McDavid and Crosby.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.

 

[x Tame Impala]

International success is pretty irrelevant when you consider the god squads Crosby played on in Canada compared to the Russians.

Russian Defense in 2014/18 was a joke and the forwards corps really isn't that impressive either

 

[Garbageyuk]

This is a tricky question because people are going to want to answer it as if you asked who the better player is.

On that front, I’d lean Crosby, but it’s close. They are so different that it makes a direct comparison difficult. But if you boil it down to who you’d pick if you were building a team to win the Cup, again, I’d lean slightly toward Crosby. But I don’t think you could go wrong either way, and each brings things that the other doesn’t.

Now that we have that out of the way, I think Ovechkin has had the better career. The sheer advantage in hardware favours him heavily in this comparison, and he’s going down as the sport’s all time greatest goal scorer. I think that quite clearly eclipses what Crosby will be known as; a top 10ish player of all time. Ovechkin isn’t even far behind in that department either.

To sum up:

Better player: Crosby, but it’s very close. Keep in mind that durability is an attribute, and it is extremely valuable.

Better career: Ovechkin, pretty decisively.

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

It’s Crosby but it’s closer than people would like to admit. Feel like if OV had Malkin idk what would have happened. Lots of variables both all time greats.

 

[TheLegend27]

It’s Crosby but it’s closer than people would like to admit. Feel like if OV had Malkin idk what would have happened. Lots of variables both all time greats.

Imagine if Pens drafted first in 2004…Crosby and Ovi same team. That’s at-least five cups right there.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Crosby has been irrelevant for a decade.

 

[T REX]

splitting hairs...very fine hairs at that

 

[Midnight Judges]

Should Crosby get a 3rd place Hart placing in 2008/09 then?

And Crosby was the best 2-way player among the scoring leaders those years.

Nope.

Crosby was not, and never has been a two way player, no matter how many times his fans and his prominent media advocates say it (notice how they never post any defensive stats to back it up).

Over the past 3 seasons the Penguins have given up more 5v5 and ES goals against with Sidney Crosby on the ice than any other player in the NHL. Here are some stats that Crosby fans will not click on:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Back in 2009, Crosby's defensive statistics were basically identical to Ovechkin's. (Crosby had 73 non-PP goals against in 77 games to 74 non-PP goals against for Ovie in 79 games). The 5v5 stats are also mirror images.

I'll say that again: Sidney Crosby was surrendering the same, or more, goals against than Ovechkin was.

I think Crosby's biggest advantage are the rampant baseless falsehoods his fans are willing to tell for him.

 

[Midnight Judges]

International success is pretty irrelevant when you consider the god squads Crosby played on in Canada compared to the Russians.

Russian Defense in 2014/18 was a joke and the forwards corps really isn't that impressive either

41% of the NHL is Canadian.

6.5% of the NHL is Russian.

That gives one a pretty reasonable approximation of what they were working with in terms of team support. If anyone wants to claim Russian talent stays home sometimes - cool, call it 8%.

This idea that being the 4th (or worse) best player on team Canada moves the needle in this discussion is weak. There are much better arguments for Sidney Crosby than that.

 

[TheLegend27]

Nope.

Crosby was not, and never has been a two way player, no matter how many times his fans and his prominent media advocates say it (notice how they never post any defensive stats to back it up).

Over the past 3 seasons the Penguins have given up more 5v5 and ES goals against with Sidney Crosby on the ice than any other player in the NHL. Here are some stats that Crosby fans will not click on:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Back in 2009, Crosby's defensive statistics were basically identical to Ovechkin's. (Crosby had 73 non-PP goals against in 77 games to 74 non-PP goals against for Ovie in 79 games). The 5v5 stats are also mirror images.

I'll say that again: Sidney Crosby was surrendering the same, or more, goals against than Ovechkin was.

I think Crosby's biggest advantage are the rampant baseless falsehoods his fans are willing to tell for him.

What’s the benefit of 90% of HF referring to Crosby as a great defensive player?. Sure let’s say there’s 25% Pens fans, what’s in it for the fans of other teams?.

Can you provide stats(or video compilation of errors) of Crosby’s defensive mishaps during his prime (2014-2018) instead of mid 30’s Sid with less stamina and energy. Additionally, don’t you think 5v5 against is heavily impacted by goaltending?. Personally, I think Crosby is referred to as a great defender because while he’s good, star forwards generally aren’t expected to be good or even passable on defense. Truly elite shutdown forwards are undervalued because their production is not exciting.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Damn look at the results of the poll. Capitals fans have to be big mad at that!

 

[Midnight Judges]

Damn look at the results of the poll. Capitals fans have to be big mad at that!

That would only apply for people who don't understand what a logical fallacy is.

Fortunately, the Capitals fan base tends to be highly educated.

 

[daver]

It’s Crosby but it’s closer than people would like to admit. Feel like if OV had Malkin idk what would have happened. Lots of variables both all time greats.

What if Crosby had better luck and timing with injuries? Then we aren't even making this poll.

We saw OV/Malkin in the Olympics. How did that work out?

 

[daver]

Now that we have that out of the way, I think Ovechkin has had the better career. The sheer advantage in hardware favours him heavily in this comparison, and he’s going down as the sport’s all time greatest goal scorer.

Pointing to hardware that didn't necessarily garner more Hart/Lindsay recognition for OV seems less reasonable than pointing to Crosby's SEVEN major championships vs. Ovechkin's one Cup.

 

[daver]

Head to head, the SV% of Fleury/Murray & Holtby is roughly equal except in 2017. In 2017 Holtby single handily won the Pens the series against the Caps.

2017:
Fluery: SV% .921 on 229 Shots against
Holtby: SV% .887 on 151 shots against

Fleury faced much greater offensive pressure(78 more shots) and badly outplayed Holtby when it mattered. Reverse the performances between those two and Sid Ovi have two cups each.

Crosby has had his share of bad luck, but he definitely had a lot of luck when it comes to his teammates stepping up when it matters and his team winning out despite being dominated.

This may be the worst taking point in the whole thread which is saying something. It is a lot more reasonable to say that if you gave the Pens the Caps goaltenders they would have won even more Cups.


Years in which the Caps starting goalie was statistically superior to MAF in both sv% and GAA in the playoffs:

2009 - In the Caps/Pens series, Varlamov was better and the reason why the series went 7 games when the Caps were outplayed most of the time

2010 - The Caps got Halaked, the Pens got MAFed in Games 6 and 7.

2011 - The Crosby/Malkin-less Pens put up a better fight against the Bolts than the full roster Caps

2012 - MAF was legendarily bad that year, playoff rookie Holtby beats legendarily great Tim Thomas and matches legendarily great Lundqvist.

2013 - MAF gets replaced in the Pens 1st Round series vs. the Islanders after a Game 4 that was argubly the worst game by a starting goalie in the 2013 playoffs. Vokuon takes the reins the rest of the way and puts up a .933 sv% and 2.01 GAA vs. .889 sv% and 3.51 GAA for MAF. Holtby, who by this time has taken the goaltending reins as much as MAF had for the Pens, is solid and loses due to Lundqvist

2015 - Holtby lead the playoffs in sv% and GAA (min. 5 games), MAF is solid vs. the Rangers but not good enough

2016 - MAF has been replaced by Matt Murray but starts one game and loses. The Caps get good enough goaltending from Holtby to beat the Pens but they lose due to the Pens rolling three scoring lines to the Caps one.

2018* - Holtby outplays Murray in the 2nd round and gets Smythe recogntion


Out of ELEVEN seasons, the Caps had better goaltending NINE times.


From 2007 to 2017, out of 17 goalies who started 40 playoff games, MAF is 14th in sv% and 16th in GAA.

From 2012 to 2018, out of 22 goalies who started 20 playoff games, Holtby is 2nd in sv% and 3rd in GAA.

 

[daver]

I don’t think they were grace period votes so much, but just favourable voting situations. McDavid missed the playoffs in ‘19 (as did everyone above him in scoring except for the Hart winner), Draisaitl had McDavid on the same team in ‘23, etc. But yea, they shouldn’t be looked at in the same way as high end Hart runner up years like Kucherov last year, or Ovechkin in ‘10,etc.

Crosby was the clear MVP on his team in 18/19. Kessel and Malkin may have been close in points but were a -19 and and -25 vs. + 18 for Crosby. He was clearly carrying the team. Not sure he is behind McDavid that season even if the Oilers make the playoffs.

OV's 2nd place in 14/15 was no more Hart worthy than Crosby's 18/19 season as he benefitted from a very weak year by the elite forwards and possibly Benn not being on a playoff team.

Both the players and Hart voters thought Crosby was a Top 5 player in 2021. MacKiinnon only had three more points, and one less than his teammmate, and finished ahead of him in Hart voting. Barkov had four less points and was 6th. Marchand was solid that year but he played on argubaly the best line in hockey.

 

[Randyne]

1. Hardware
Ovechkin has 1.6x larger hardware and would have 2x larger if include Ovi's awards robbed by NHL; and would have 3x larger if Malkin didn't help Sid and NHL by awarding weakest Smythes ever.
Ovi>>Sid

2. Leadership
Ovechkin makes his team better: WSH P% .615 with Ovi; .513 w/o Ovi;
Sid makes his team worse: PIT P% .601 with Sid; .633 w/o Sid:
Ovi>>Sid

3. Peak
Ovechkin outpaced SidMalkin duo 3 years in a row (when they factored in each other by 40%+)
Ovi>>Sid

4. Position
Ovechkin as an all-time winger is higher (among 3247 wingers) than Sid as an all-time center (among 1976 centers) and Ovi has more primary points and TGF:
Ovi>Sid

5. Hits
Ovi>>>Sid

6. Highlights
Ovi>>>>Sid

Sid has media hype and generational help from Malkin.
The media even kicked generational star from top100 to make Sid shine. It's disgusting.
Sid is hiding his "-" minuses behind Malkin. It's disgusting.
Sid was whinny and dirty. It was disgusting.

Sid is on Thornton tier without Malkin.

Someone can say Sid dragged his team to the SCF 2009, but still Malkin factored in 39% of Sid's points in that PO.