The better career: Crosby or Ovechkin?

[daver]

This is not about who was better overall player or who has more team awards, to me this is about who people will remember 30years from now and 30years from now most younger fans will have no idea who is Crosby but Ovi’s name will be immortal and mentioned together with names like Lemieux Orr Gretzky

Since we are making predictions, the more time goes on, the more Crosby will be viewed as being on the Mount Rushmore of hockey as the best player in the past 50 years/21st Century.

While Wayne and Mario will always be rated in the Top 5 based on their video game numbers, it will become clearer that they benefitted from playing in an unprecented higher scoring era. Crosby is adding elite longevity to his resume with 20 years of being a Top 5/10 player like Howe did; part of the reason he is included in the Big 4.

 

[The90]

This thread is a good example of a quiet minority.

The loud ones are all Ovechkin folk

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin had better teammates than Crosby over his career.

Wrong.

The penguins have a .644 winning percentage in games Crosby has missed.

The Capitals are below .500 without Ovechkin.

 

[authentic]

This is not about who was better overall player or who has more team awards, to me this is about who people will remember 30years from now and 30years from now most younger fans will have no idea who is Crosby but Ovi’s name will be immortal and mentioned together with names like Lemieux Orr Gretzky

 

[Midnight Judges]

Since we are making predictions, the more time goes on, the more Crosby will be viewed as being on the Mount Rushmore of hockey as the best player in the past 50 years/21st Century.

lol. There already is a newer and better Crosby.

 

[Acallabeth]

Ironically the record chase kinda shows exactly why this is Crosby well over Ovechkin. Gretzky isn’t the best to ever do it because he has the most goals all time. Gretzky was first and foremost a playmaker, and what makes him the best are things like him having more career assists than anyone has points, or being the 1st and 2nd fastest player to 1000 points. Nobody thinks back on Gretzky and thinks “he was as good as he was because of the goal scoring”. Ovechkin will take the goals record, but everything else Crosby did and accomplished are far greater.

To say that people look back on Gretzky and don't think he's the best ever because of 894 goals, 92-goal season, 50 in 39 etc. is absolutely ludicrous.

Most important record is most points, hence why Art Ross is generally more valued than Rocket. Otherwise I agree.

Art Ross is more important not in a small part because it's a much older trophy.
Also:

proud owner of the Golden Goal, the second most important goal ever behind Henderson's

Crosby has 3 cups, 4 cup appearances, 2 gold medals and the Olympic golden goal on his resume.

Can't see anyone hyping up 'that secondary assist'.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Wrong.

The penguins have a .644 winning percentage in games Crosby has missed.

The Capitals are below .500 without Ovechkin.

Non-sequitur.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Non-sequitur.

Wrong.

It utterly disproves your baseless assertion.

 

[Plural]

I hate it, but a lot of young people dom't know who Bobby Orr was. Lemieux and even Gretzky are unknown for some younger fans. I have a younger brother who was born in 1999 and he didn't know Lemieux or Orr and vaguely knew Gretzky was a famous hockey player.

There is a chance that both OV and Sid will get lost in history a lot sooner than we think.

 

[Yepthatsme]

To say that people look back on Gretzky and don't think he's the best ever because of 894 goals, 92-goal season, 50 in 39 etc. is absolutely ludicrous.

Art Ross is more important not in a small part because it's a much older trophy.
Also:



Can't see anyone hyping up 'that secondary assist'.

Gretzky wouldn’t be considered a top 3 goal scorer of all time. He is 7th in era adjusted goals per game. Gretzky is the GOAT of GOAT’s primarily because he was the best playmaker that has ever put on a pair of skates, hence the ‘more assists than any player has points’ stat

 

[filinski77]

I don't agree with the other poster assertion that Crosby is the best international player ever but you wasted a ton of time when it's pretty obvious that Crosby as an individual players is much better than Ovechkin internationally

I literally just dumped a huge set of data and analysis to prove how it isn't "pretty obvious that Crosby is better internationally". But sure - I should just take your word for it because you said so.

Also - my analysis was 2-fold, and other than comparing Ovi/Crosby, the other component was to disprove the many people here that are acting like Crosby has been an all-timer internationally based on his own play. I very clearly illustrated that Crosby has not been. So you can say that it's a lot of word all you want, but a substantive analysis just showed that those claims are false (regardless of if you already agree with it or not).

This is a lot of words that does literally nothing to refute the argument that Crosby has more international success than Ovi.

No one gives a shit that Ovi had more goals in the 2004 WJC than Crosby. Thats not what is being discussed. People care that Crosby has won way more, which is why he’s going to be viewed to have the better career.

I never claimed that Crosby doesn't have more international success, nor do I disagree with that. You either didn't read my analysis or you can't comprehend this discussion. I was strictly talking about Crosby's performance and contributions himself.

If you truly want to come out and say "I think Crosby is better and has had a better career simply because he was born Canadian and got the luxury of winning some gold medals even if he was the 5th best player on his own team" - I'd respect that a lot more than these bad faith arguments of either distorting what actually happened, or acting like my argument is something that it isn't.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I never claimed that Crosby doesn't have more international success, nor do I disagree with that. You either didn't read my analysis or you can't comprehend this discussion. I was strictly talking about Crosby's performance and contributions himself.

If you truly want to come out and say "I think Crosby is better and has had a better career simply because he was born Canadian and got the luxury of winning some gold medals even if he was the 5th best player on his own team" - I'd respect that a lot more than these bad faith arguments of either distorting what actually happened, or acting like my argument is something that it isn't.

Then why did you quote my post saying "Crosby's team and international success blows Ovi's out of the water" with "this is revisionist history"?

 

[filinski77]

Then why did you quote my post saying "Crosby's team and international success blows Ovi's out of the water" with "this is revisionist history"?

Because I'm illustrating that Crosby has actually been relatively disappointing at the Olympic level outside of one single goal. It's revisionist history to act like he was a driver on that team outside of that. So to say he will be seen higher all-time simply due to playing for a better country is nonsense.

Regardless, I do agree that he has had more international success - but absolutely not because of him being a better international player than Ovi.

So if you want to rank him higher simply because he's Canadian and not because of his contributions - that's fine if you're honest about it then. No point in arguing further with you on that point.

 

[wetcoast]

I literally just dumped a huge set of data and analysis to prove how it isn't "pretty obvious that Crosby is better internationally". But sure - I should just take your word for it because you said so.

Also - my analysis was 2-fold, and other than comparing Ovi/Crosby, the other component was to disprove the many people here that are acting like Crosby has been an all-timer internationally based on his own play. I very clearly illustrated that Crosby has not been. So you can say that it's a lot of word all you want, but a substantive analysis just showed that those claims are false (regardless of if you already agree with it or not).

Sure Canada had a great team and probably would have won had Ovi and him switched places but that understates how important Crosby was.

When Joel Quenneville was asked about his own player Jonathan Toews, he went on to wax poetic on the details of Crosby and his leadership and buying into the styme to win.

Overall my point is that Crosby has both an individual and overall record internationally and in the NHL than Ovechkin does.

 

[TheLegend27]

Crosby - 2, 2, 3, 4

Ovechkin - 1, 6, 7

Thing is - after winning back to back cups, the voters started giving Crosby grace period votes. For example, Crosby somehow finished 2nd in hart voting in 19’, above a McDavid who had a worse roster, more even strength points, and 16% more pts in general. This wasn’t a Taylor Hall type situation, as the Penguins were one of the best teams not far removed from two championships. Even in 2021, Crosby finished 4 over Drai who had 22 more points. I believe it comes down to whether to you value one more Hart win + 7 more Rockets, or one more Art Ross + a few better Art Ross finishes.

 

[daver]

Because I'm illustrating that Crosby has actually been relatively disappointing at the Olympic level outside of one single goal. It's revisionist history to act like he was a driver on that team outside of that. So to say he will be seen higher all-time simply due to playing for a better country is nonsense.

Regardless, I do agree that he has had more international success - but absolutely not because of him being a better international player than Ovi.

So if you want to rank him higher simply because he's Canadian and not because of his contributions - that's fine if you're honest about it then. No point in arguing further with you on that point.

What is the case that Ovechkin is the better international player?

In 18 Olympic games, OV has 8 goals and 3 assists and zero medals. In 13 Olympic games, Crosby has 5 goals and five assists and two gold medals.

In three Olympics, Ovechkin played in 6 playoff games and had one goal. Crosby played in 7 playoff games and had two goals, both in the Gold Medal game. He was the centrepiece of the 2014 team that was the most dominant winner of the NHL Olympic era.

And no, your argument that only goals matter doesn't fly anymore here as it does in the comparison of their NHL careers. Crosby's all around offensive game and far superior 2-way game has earned him lots of recogintion.

 

[authentic]

I hate it, but a lot of young people dom't know who Bobby Orr was. Lemieux and even Gretzky are unknown for some younger fans. I have a younger brother who was born in 1999 and he didn't know Lemieux or Orr and vaguely knew Gretzky was a famous hockey player.

There is a chance that both OV and Sid will get lost in history a lot sooner than we think.

I mean can you really call yourself a hockey fan if you don’t know who Gretzky and Lemieux are? I knew who Maurice Richard, Gordie Howe and even Howie Morenz were when I was a kid, even read up about them extensively before I was 10 years old.

 

[Plural]

I mean can you really call yourself a hockey fan if you don’t know who Gretzky and Lemieux are? I knew who Maurice Richard, Gordie Howe and even Howie Morenz were when I was a kid, even read up about them extensively before I was 10 years old.

I don't know. I guess you could be a fan and not know them. Canadian/NA fans know more about NHL history than European fans do. My in-laws are season ticket holders for our local team, Tappara and have been following hockey for decades. If I were to ask them to name 5-10 superstars from the NHL in 60's, 70's and 80's and outside of Finnish and maybe Swedish names they probably could name Gretzky and maybe with luck Messier or someone equivalent.

 

[PM88RU]

One player will have his name left in the records book, the other one won’t. (Sorry haven’t seen a 1.0 PPG yearly award).

That is one of the most important thing to characterize a greatness of a career.

Other ones are Cups and trophy numbers, they kind of balance each other out (3-1 in favor of Sid but Ovi has more hardware).

International career -please spare me, thus any Canada 4th liner is a much better player than Jagr, for example. Stacked team.

Aaand, If somebody thinks that a newer generations love digging much into history, I have a bad news for you. Even this post would probably get TLDR mark for the alpha-generation.

Thus I believe Ovi’s legacy will last longer and his career will be seen as greater, at least until his record is broken by someone else.

 

[TheLegend27]

It really doesn't matter at all who people will take. The Capitals have had better goaltending than the Penguins over Crosby and Ovechkin's careers. Especially in the playoffs, where I think Washington has had a ridiculous 922 SV%. Or at least it was before last season.

Head to head, the SV% of Fleury/Murray & Holtby is roughly equal except in 2017. In 2017 Holtby single handily won the Pens the series against the Caps.

2017:
Fluery: SV% .921 on 229 Shots against
Holtby: SV% .887 on 151 shots against

Fleury faced much greater offensive pressure(78 more shots) and badly outplayed Holtby when it mattered. Reverse the performances between those two and Sid Ovi have two cups each.

Crosby has had his share of bad luck, but he definitely had a lot of luck when it comes to his teammates stepping up when it matters and his team winning out despite being dominated.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Head to head, the SV% of Fleury/Murray & Holtby is roughly equal except in 2017. In 2017 Holtby single handily won the Pens the series against the Caps.

2017:
Fluery: SV% .921 on 229 Shots against
Holtby: SV% .887 on 151 shots against

Fleury faced much greater offensive pressure(78 more shots) and badly outplayed Holtby when it mattered. Reverse the performances between those two and Sid Ovi have two cups each.

Crosby has had his share of bad luck, but he definitely had a lot of luck when it comes to his teammates stepping up when it matters and his team winning out despite being dominated.

What about 2009? Want to switch the goaltending there too?

 

[Sypher04]

As far as the polls go, I’m taking Crosby but it’s definitely close. Spectacular player and career on both sides.

I’m very curious to see how each close out their NHL careers.

Sounds like Ovechkin comes back 1 more year before joining the KHL - good opportunity to put some space between him and Gretzky.

Crosby has 2 years left under contract, his 38 and 39 seasons. If he can stay productive like he is now, which I wouldn’t bet against, he could be as little as ~70 points back of Jagr for #2 all time when his current deal expires.

Would love to see Sid stick around until 40/41/42 and make a run at 2000, as unlikely as that is. Would take 5 more seasons (38-42) at 65 pts average.

 

[TheLegend27]

What about 2009? Want to switch the goaltending there too?

I would rather have my starter post .905 in a game 7 than .778, so yes, I would. Everyone downplays how clutch MAF is in winner-takes-all situations. After the Capitals' 2009 game 7, Crosby has 3 points in 7 game sevens, so the Pens usually needed great goaltending in game sevens to win.

 

[Regal]

Thing is - after winning back to back cups, the voters started giving Crosby grace period votes. For example, Crosby somehow finished 2nd in hart voting in 19’, above a McDavid who had a worse roster, more even strength points, and 16% more pts in general. This wasn’t a Taylor Hall type situation, as the Penguins were one of the best teams not far removed from two championships. Even in 2021, Crosby finished 4 over Drai who had 22 more points. I believe it comes down to whether to you value one more Hart win + 7 more Rockets, or one more Art Ross + a few better Art Ross finishes.

I don’t think they were grace period votes so much, but just favourable voting situations. McDavid missed the playoffs in ‘19 (as did everyone above him in scoring except for the Hart winner), Draisaitl had McDavid on the same team in ‘23, etc. But yea, they shouldn’t be looked at in the same way as high end Hart runner up years like Kucherov last year, or Ovechkin in ‘10,etc.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

This debate died in 2017. McDavid is the one who should be compared to Crosby, not Ovechkin.