The 'best player' vs 'most valuable to team' problem.

[TheSituation]

The best player in the league is most valuable. Confusion only sets in when someone has an agenda.

With that logic McDavid should repeat no?? You can't tell me with a straight face that Kucherov is a better player than McDavid. There's clearly more to it than that.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

The Hart Trophy is synonymous with MVP. And MVP, is kind of ambiguous. You could interpret it as the best player i.e most valuable player in the league, or 'most valuable to his team'.

There is a distinction, it usually goes to the best player in the league.

Kucherov is probably the best player in the league in this year, but Tampa is so stacked with other elite players like Stamkos/Hedman/Vasilevsky. You could argue he shouldn't be punished for having good teammates, too. Malkin is basically in the same boat as Kucherov.

On the other hand, players like Taylor Hall, Nathan Mackinnon, Connor McDavid don't have nearly the help that guys like Kucherov, Crosby, Malkin have but are putting their teams on their back and carrying them. The Oilers are still a terrible team but imagine how much worse they would be if McDavid didn't score like he does for them.

Taylor Hall has 68 points, the next highest scorer is Hischier with 41 points. Crazy. MacKinnon is carrying the AVs, if they can sneak into a wildcard spot, I think he might deserve it.

Who do you think it should go to?

If your not in the playoffs don’t mention them.

 

[The Macho King]

With that logic McDavid should repeat no?? You can't tell me with a straight face that Kucherov is a better player than McDavid. There's clearly more to it than that.

Is Kucherov having a better season than McDavid? And I don't think saying Kucherov is better than McDavid is a silly position to take. McDavid was crowned too soon.

 

[Ben Matlock]

Why define it as "player judged most valuable to his team" if you actually mean "the best player of the regular season, preferrably a forward on a playoff team"?

If you follow the criteria literally, you need to think: which team's chances to succeed would you hurt the most by removing one specific player from the roster?

Ovi for the Caps, Hall for NJ, Kopitar for LA etc. come to mind. Great players, but not necessarily the absolute best. In reality, however, this is not how it usually works.

 

[983 others]

The good ole stacked team argument. Gotta love it.

Did you happen to catch how terrible Tampa looked against Toronto without Kucherov? It was borderline unwatchable. PP was horrific.

Cool, then I hope you'll be very upset when Hedman wins the Norris and Vasilevskiy gets the Vezina since they're trash and Kuch is carrying the team.

 

[Legion34]

exactly.

just because a team has other good players doesn't mean anyone particular player is less valuable to his team, or any other team. it just means his team has many more valuable players.

the Hart is an NFL trophy and goes to the player who has performed the best in that particular year. end of story.

Well shouldn’t that team be more than 2 pts ahead then?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Hart: Kucherov, Ovechkin, Hall

Lindsay: Kucherov, Malkin, Ovechkin

The finalists might be different but I think Kucherov has got both won assuming health.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The best player in the league is most valuable. Confusion only sets in when someone has an agenda.

This is exactly how it should be. Unfortunately, too many people want to turn it into a philosophical debate about the "meaning of most valuable".

Too often, this "new age" definition punishes great players on good teams and rewards decent players on bad teams.

It also places way too much emphasis on "this 8th seed wouldn't even make the playoffs without Player X!", ignoring the fact that great players on good teams also affect their team's standings. Maybe Tampa finishes 3rd in their division instead of first without Kucherov? Maybe Pittsburgh finishes in a wildcard spot instead of 2nd without Crosby?

A player who is a big part of his team finishing 1st or 2nd instead of 5th or 6th is every bit as valuable as a player who helps his team finish 7th or 8th instead of 10th or 11th.

 

[Future GOAT]

The good ole stacked team argument. Gotta love it.

Did you happen to catch how terrible Tampa looked against Toronto without Kucherov? It was borderline unwatchable. PP was horrific.

They were also missing Namestnikov too though, right? Since he was traded and didn't play in that game. So you can't really chock it up to it being solely because Kuch wasn't there. We also saw how Kuch's production dropped off and he went into that slump right when Hedman was injured and didn't get back to his old self until Hedman returned. While we know Kuch is a great player on his own, there are indications he is benefiting well, from being on a line with 2 other all stars.

 

[george14]

Kopitar is scoring more, has just as much separation from the rest of his team and provides a lot more to his team away from the puck, yet he isn't getting nearly as much attention for the Hart. Devils fans just want to pump Hall's tires, I get it, he's having a great season, but it's not Hart worthy.

Just to clarify a few things:
- I'm not a Devils fan.
- Secondly, that is also why I cited the 3rd leading scorer. Kopitar still has Doughty and Brown who have over 40 points.
- Hall missed 5 games (not Kopitar's fault obviously) so to say Kopitar is "scoring more" isn't really true considering Hall is producing at a higher pace.
- LA has a strong defensive team and is 2nd in the league in Save%. They are simply a better team than NJ overall.

I am not strictly talking about point separation, I'm talking about what Hall brings to the Devils considering the lineup they have. LA has a championship pedigree and fans can name quite a few players. The same cannot be said for NJ. I would bet the casual fan can name Hall and maybe Palmeiri?

 

[TheSituation]

Is Kucherov having a better season than McDavid? And I don't think saying Kucherov is better than McDavid is a silly position to take. McDavid was crowned too soon.

You see the "best player" and "the player who's having the best season" are 2 completely different things. You said the best player.

 

[The Macho King]

You see the "best player" and "the player who's having the best season" are 2 completely different things. You said the best player.

Asinine distinction. You get the pedantry award for the week.

 

[TheSituation]

Asinine distinction. You get the pedantry award for the week.

It's not asinine when the two phrases are materially different. Don't get pissy when you're called out on it.

 

[Machinehead]

The best player is inherently the most valuable.

Or "the player having the best season" if you must.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

With that logic McDavid should repeat no?? You can't tell me with a straight face that Kucherov is a better player than McDavid. There's clearly more to it than that.

Kucherov is a better player than McDavid....

 

[Devils090]

We got shutout by the goddamn Red Wings when Hall was out....he’s the MVP

 

[McShogun99]

I’m rooting for Hall but I don’t think he even finishes top 3 in voting unless two things happen, NJD finish top 3 in their division and Hall finishes top 5 in points. You rarely see a forward win an MVP without those two things. Right now it’s Kucherov’s to lose.

 

[Juicy Pop]

It's a subjective award presented to one of a pool of objectively worthy candidates.

Of course there are going to be issues.

 

[slobbergob]

We got shutout by the goddamn Red Wings when Hall was out....he’s the MVP

Devils lost 5-0 to the Yotes with Hall so your point doesn't mean much.

 

[PunkRockLocke]

There is a trophy for each.

Hart for most valuable to his team. Lindsay for most outstanding player.

It's in the descriptions for the trophies.

Not any grey area, at all actually. It can be and sometimes is the same player, sometimes it is not.

Although, it seems even some voters for the Hart fail to understand it.

 

[Nocashstyle]

The best player in the league is most valuable. Confusion only sets in when someone has an agenda.

This logic basically makes the Hart and Art Ross redundant. The leading scorer that season is almost always viewed as "the best player."

 

[Martinez]

What is the argument for hall over mackinnon?

 

[Psych0dad]

When you really break it down, wouldn't the most valuable player be the person who has the highest effect on the objective of winning?

Goals per 60 minutes as an individual stat would answer the question of a players pace of scoring. You also need to include how many goals are scored against you for more clarity, so it will show the difference between the two.

 

[joe dirte]

Well shouldn’t that team be more than 2 pts ahead then?

im not sure who youre referring to. i was making a general statement.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Hart trophy is a joke... Taylor Hall is mentioned it for being "best on his team", while not being top10 player in league... Sorry, that should never be considered MVP trophy... Gave him the trophy for being "best for his team", and make real MVP trophy- for best player...

Lindsay is flawed too, because its the players vote... Some people say players are most competent people to vote, but it doesn't have to be excatly true... See soccer awards "voted by players", and its even bigger joke than writers (although in 2013 players corrected the travesty wich was giving MVP to Ovechkin, and voted for actually best player in the league...). Plus players tend to be terribly biased.

The most competent people voting would be coaches/GMs, because its their job to evaluate the talent, but again- there's high risk they could be biased...

Why wouldn’t the players have a better idea of who is the best? They play against every player, and every star....they are on the ice and have way more of an opinion on the matter. To call that “flawed” doesn’t make sense.

I can see more Bias coming from GMs and Coaches than players. Coaches and GMs worry about their own team, their own organization. In the end, a lot of the time that’s all their focus is. At least the players are actually out there in the mix with them.