The best goalscorers in the NHL-3

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I disagree with it. To my mind, it's much easier to score goals when you're surrounded with good players, than when you're one man show.
that 2 different claim, it is easier to score goals vs it is easier to score a larger percentage of the teams goals.

The 1984 oilers scored 446 goals, for Gretzky to score 30% of their goals (and every goals he score are added to the team goal making it harder and harder) if him scoring does not remove anyone else goals he would have needed to score 153 goals and the Oilers would have ended up with 512 of them.

To score 30% of the 2001 panthers goals, Bure needed to score 59-60, was that harder to do than scoring over 150 goals with the oilers ?

If we add 1989 Mario Lemieux-Coffey and have a prime Anderson-Messier second on the 2001 Panthers, maybe it make it easier a bit for Bure to score goals (maybe not that much, maybe they play to win, he play less minutes, etc...) but the Panthers would have scored over near 350 goals that year maybe a bit more, now Bure need to score 105 goals to do it (and if he do they are probably more a 365 goals teams, now he need to score 110..., you get the idea)

I am really unsure it is linear how easier it get to score with how many goals the team score as for one the more you score the more goals the team has.

Imagine a team that score 200 goals with a player that scored 40, would he find a new gear and scored 80 and his team end up with 240 ? Was he not at least twice as good at scoring goal (and argument could be made much more than that) ?

in team goal percentage he went from 20% to 33%, a 65% jump.

Now imagine a team that score 400 goals with a player that scored 40, would he find a new gear and scored 80 and his team end up with 440 ? He went from 10% to 18.2% a significantly different jump... all that to say not sure how sound it is.
 
Last edited:
that 2 different claim, it is easier to score goals vs it is easier to score a larger percentage of the teams goals.

The 1984 oilers scored 446 goals, for Gretzky to score 30% of their goals (and every goals he score are added to the team goal making it harder and harder) if him scoring does not remove anyone else goals he would have needed to score 153 goals and the Oilers would have ended up with 512 of them.

To score 30% of the 2001 panthers goals, Bure needed to score 59-60, was that harder to do than scoring over 150 goals with the oilers ?
Mmm, ok.
1. I see what are you takling about
2. My answer about "easier to score goals in good team" was rush a bit. I still think so, but I'd like to specify it a bit - Bure's 00/01 season and Gretzky's 83/84 seasons belongs to different eras in the NHL - different amout of teams. Different amount of teams gives us different absolute numbers, which is clear from my tables. That's why I divide tables by teams amount.
So, I can't say right now, that the difference is as huge as 153 goals, that Gretz needed to score. I beleive, though, that its stil in Bure's favour, but not sure for how much, cause I don't know, how should we compare those two epochs.
 
belongs to different eras in the NHL
we can go ultra specific and something that would go directly in your point I think, the 1996 Penguins.

If you were playing on the penguins Top 6 and if you were on their powerplay, scoring goals was much easier for a type of player than on any other teams.

Nedved scored 45 that year, Sandstrom pace was young Sandstrom 1991ish, Jagr putted 62 in. But you also need to be really good to see ice time on the PP, not sure if it help Naslund or hurt Naslund playing for them.

But on the other hand because the penguins score so much more goals than anyone else, does it not make it harder to score 20% of their goals ?

Nedved scoring 45 of the penguins 362 goals, does it make him a worst goal scorer than scoring 25 on the Senators ? Like rookie Alfredsson did ?

And also there is the it is easier to score because I am on a big offensive like RNH scoring 100 points on that McDavid-Drai power play vs I am playing on a offensive powerhouse because I am McDavid-Draisaitl and we turn the OIlers into an offensive powerhouse because we play for them scenario.

Lemieux winger were nothing special for first liner in 1996, his line scored so much because he was the center of his line. So giving the team effect we give to Nedved-Sandstrom in a same way to Lemieux-Jagr can feel a bit different,

Lemieux-Jagr were on the best offensive 360 goals team in the nhl because they played for the Penguins scoring a lot of points, they did not score a lot of points because they were playing for the Penguins.

That way to calculate things will hurt goalscorer that are also great playmaker 2 times, their teams having high goals total because they score a lot of goals yes, but they also boost it with the rest of their games.
 
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we can go ultra specific and something that would go directly in your point I think, the 1996 Penguins.

That way to calculate things will hurt goalscorer that are also great playmaker 2 times, their teams having high goals total because they score a lot of goals yes, but they also boost it with the rest of their games.
It doesn't hurt, because those tables are not answers to "who was the best player". It allows us to compare particular goal-scoring seasons in particular time periods.
The main problem with my calculations as I see it, is that time after time people want to have ONE number that will explain everyhting.
No, unfortunately.
But if you want to interpret 26-28 teams table as that Lemieux 95/96 season was the most outstanding, because score 19% of goals of good team is harder than score 25 % of bad team goals - its also fine by me. I can just stand here that we ddint come to an agreement on this question :)
 
It doesn't hurt, because those tables are not answers to "who was the best player".
You think that if Gretzky score 87 goals with 55 assists the Oilers does end up with less goals and he does not end up with an larger percentage of his team goals ?

I do not think this can be controversial.
 
The whole idea of the thread seem based on the idea that scoring on a team that score a lot of goal than on a team that score less goals with some what if they played on the median team.

In any event saying that Gretzky did not hurt his goals percentage by boosting Oilers goals totals is playing the what if and giving it an answer, that no the oilers did not score more goals because of Gretzky playmaking ability.
 
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Generally speaking, things like % of team goals/point totals, goal totals of linemates, can compliment raw numbers/relative dominance but not to the extent that move someone in or out of a clear statistical tier. Using league GPG is simply too flawed a metric.
 
The whole idea of the thread seem based on the idea that scoring on a team that score a lot of goal than on a team that score less goals with some what if they played on the median team.

In any event saying that Gretzky did not hurt his goals percentage by boosting Oilers goals totals is playing the what if and giving it an answer, that no the oilers did not score more goals because of Gretzky playmaking ability.
Those tables are not answers to "who was the best player".
 
Those tables are not answers to "who was the best player".
Of course, I am only talking about judging and looking raw goal scored here.

I am not sure how I could explain the point (english is a second language)

When the Oilers score almost 100 more goals than anyone and it is in large part your fault, should it hurt how we judge your goals totals in a linear way like that.

87 goals for Gretzky was 19.5% of the Oilers goals, Mike Bullard scored 51 of the Penguins 254 goals that for a better ratio of 20%.

I am not sure that 51 on the Pens > 87 goals on the Oilers is sound, specially for the bus drivers that make them happen. Do you really believe that ? Bullard > peak Gretzky, only difference to explain why Gretzky scored 70% more goals was the Oilers being a better team ?

The general point is fair, playing with Coffey will boost your goal total and team goals is not a bad proxy for the playing with Coffey variable, but a linear expression of it seem overrating the effect and in general will hurt goalscorer that were good playmaker over the Bondra type.
 
From the best three of the raw number goal scorers from the beginning of the NHL in 1917-18 to 2015-16, I used Namba17's (past?) method to measure the given top-three goal scorers against the 'average first-liner still based on goal scoring' based on era. That yielded these top peak regular seasons.


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull 90-91[/TD]

[TD]
2.63058824​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Esposito 70-71[/TD]

[TD]
2.61090366​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe 52-53[/TD]

[TD]
2.42365591​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dye 24-25[/TD]
[TD]2.41044776[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malone 17-18[/TD]

[TD]
2.37254902​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gretzky 81-82[/TD]

[TD]
2.35418359​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gretzky 83-84[/TD]

[TD]
2.34204276​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lemieux 88-89[/TD]

[TD]
2.2972973​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 07-08[/TD]

[TD]
2.28544423​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stamkos 11-12[/TD]

[TD]
2.23131276​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Esposito 73-74[/TD]

[TD]
2.176​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Morenz 27-28[/TD]

[TD]
2.16027088​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cook 26-27[/TD]
[TD]2.1505618[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Esposito 71-72[/TD]

[TD]
2.14595376​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull 66-67[/TD]

[TD]
2.14316703​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bure 99-00[/TD]
[TD]2.13710368[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lemieux 95-96[/TD]

[TD]
2.13606911​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Richard 44-45[/TD]

[TD]
2.10970464​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Conacher 34-35[/TD]

[TD]
2.109375​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nels Stewart 25-26[/TD]

[TD]
2.1​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 14-15[/TD]

[TD]
2.04908775​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Weiland 29-30[/TD]

[TD]
2.04206242​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bossy 78-79[/TD]
[TD]2.03060624[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bure 00-01[/TD]
[TD]2.02320748[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bailey 28-29[/TD]
[TD]2.01666667[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull 91-92[/TD]

[TD]
2.0130719​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 08-09[/TD]

[TD]
2.00887574​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 12-13[/TD]

[TD]
2.00138985​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull 65-66[/TD]

[TD]
2​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull 89-90[/TD]

[TD]
1.98389148​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 13-14[/TD]

[TD]
1.96389892​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Selanne 97-98[/TD]

[TD]
1.9604147​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bondra 97-98[/TD]

[TD]
1.9604147​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe 51-52[/TD]

[TD]
1.95833333​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Conacher 33-34[/TD]

[TD]
1.95780591​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
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From the best three of the raw number goal scorers from the beginning of the NHL in 1917-18 to 2015-16, I used Namba17's (past?) method to measure the given top-three goal scorers against the 'average first-liner still based on goal scoring' based on era. That yielded these top peak regular seasons.


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull 90-91[/TD]

[TD]
2.63058824​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Esposito 70-71[/TD]

[TD]
2.61090366​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe 52-53[/TD]

[TD]
2.42365591​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dye 24-25[/TD]
[TD]2.41044776[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malone 17-18[/TD]

[TD]
2.37254902​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gretzky 81-82[/TD]

[TD]
2.35418359​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gretzky 83-84[/TD]

[TD]
2.34204276​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lemieux 88-89[/TD]

[TD]
2.2972973​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 07-08[/TD]

[TD]
2.28544423​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stamkos 11-12[/TD]

[TD]
2.23131276​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Esposito 73-74[/TD]

[TD]
2.176​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Morenz 27-28[/TD]

[TD]
2.16027088​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cook 26-27[/TD]
[TD]2.1505618[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Esposito 71-72[/TD]

[TD]
2.14595376​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull 66-67[/TD]

[TD]
2.14316703​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bure 99-00[/TD]
[TD]2.13710368[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lemieux 95-96[/TD]

[TD]
2.13606911​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Richard 44-45[/TD]

[TD]
2.10970464​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Conacher 34-35[/TD]

[TD]
2.109375​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nels Stewart 25-26[/TD]

[TD]
2.1​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 14-15[/TD]

[TD]
2.04908775​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Weiland 29-30[/TD]

[TD]
2.04206242​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bossy 78-79[/TD]
[TD]2.03060624[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bure 00-01[/TD]
[TD]2.02320748[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bailey 28-29[/TD]
[TD]2.01666667[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull 91-92[/TD]

[TD]
2.0130719​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 08-09[/TD]

[TD]
2.00887574​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 12-13[/TD]

[TD]
2.00138985​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull 65-66[/TD]

[TD]
2​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull 89-90[/TD]

[TD]
1.98389148​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ovechkin 13-14[/TD]

[TD]
1.96389892​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Selanne 97-98[/TD]

[TD]
1.9604147​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bondra 97-98[/TD]

[TD]
1.9604147​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe 51-52[/TD]

[TD]
1.95833333​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Conacher 33-34[/TD]

[TD]
1.95780591​
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Could you, please, specify, which method did you use exactly?
 
Working on tables I found out that numbers clearly changed from periods to periods.
I decided to take a closer look at it.

In table below.
1st column is amount of teams in the NHL in given period.
2nd column is average goals scored by #5 goalscorer
3d column is average goals scored by #10 goalscorer
3d column is average goals scored by #15 goalscorer

6 teams 28,76 25,35 21,9
12-14 teams 40,60 34,20 31,00
16-18 teams 46,71 39,29 36,00
21 teams 52,14 46,21 42,43
24 teams (1 year) 60,00 54,00 48,00
26-28 teams 44,50 37,75 34,38
30 -31 teams 39,71 35,08 32,67
32 teams 49,00 42,67 40,00
 
Then I decided to find an average ratio between goals, scored by #1 goalscorer and average amount of goals, scored by every player, that scored a goal for the same periods

6 teams 409,86
12-14 teams 481,40
16-18 teams 474,86
21 teams 579,50
24 teams 611,24
26-28 teams 547,58
30 -31 teams 519,38
32 teams 593,75
 
After that I found a coefficient to equalize ratios above. I took ratio of period of 32 teams as a benchmark with coefficient 1 and devide 593,75 by all other ratios.
Then I multiplied those coefficient on every ratio of every season.
And that's the table I got

Brett Hull 90/91 86 786,59
Howe 52/53 49 783,41
Esposito 70/71 76 755,93
Ovi 07/08 65 738,94
Stamkos 11/12 60 720,88
Lemieux 88/89 85 706,87
Bobby Hull 66/67 52 704,13
Bure 00/01 59 702,01
Lemieux 95/96 69 696,50
Howe 51/52 47 687,28
Gretzky 83/84 87 686,27
Bobby Hull 65/66 54 686,26
Esposito 71/72 66 685,44
Bossy 78/79 69 685,36
Gretzky 81/82 92 681,27
Esposito 73/74 68 673,35
Geoffrion 60/61 50 654,98
Bure 99/00 58 651,05
Brett Hull 91/92 70 648,01
Bobby Hull 61/62 50 636,23
Howe 50/51 43 634,56
Matthews 23/24 69 631,88
Matthews 20/21 41 631,77
Bealiveau 55/56 47 620,86
Ovi 14/15 53 620,31
Lemieux 87/88 70 617,76
Ovi 08/09 56 616,41
Iginla 01/02 52 616,32
Richard 46/47 45 613,09
Hejduk 02/03 50 608,26
Brett Hull 89/90 72 605,76
Ovi 13/14 51 604,43
Howe 56/57 44 603,71
Richard 49/50 43 602,45
Lafleur 77/78 60 601,96
Selanne 97/98 52 598,36
Bondra 97/98 52 598,36
Pastrnak 19/20 48 596,17
Ovi 19/20 48 596,17
Ovi 15/16 50 594,46
Selanne 92/93 76 593,52
Mogilny 92/93 76 593,52
Bobby Hull 63/64 43 593,15
Bobby Hull 68/69 58 586,74
Shutt 76/77 60 586,45
Ovi 12/13 32 583,31
Perry 10/11 50 582,31
McDavid 22/23 64 582,24
Bure 93/94 60 581,42
Cheechoo 05/06 56 574,45
Crosby 09/10 51 574,00
Stamkos 09/10 51 574,00
Gretzky 84/85 73 570,64
Richard 53/54 37 568,54
Bealiveau 58/59 45 567,93
Matthews 21/22 60 567,14
Esposito 74/75 61 561,21
Ovi 18/19 51 556,00
Lecavalier 06/07 52 552,03
Tkachuk 96/97 52 551,35
Gretzky 82/83 71 550,32
Bondra 94/95 34 542,90
Ullman 64/65 42 539,06
Ovi 17/18 49 538,41
Geoffrion 54/55 38 535,54
Leach 75/76 61 535,44
Selanne 98/99 47 528,71
Bossy 80/81 68 522,45
Kurri 85/86 68 520,63
Gretzky 86/87 62 520,56
Kovi 03/04 41 518,47
Nash 03/04 41 518,47
Iginla 03/04 41 518,47
Crosby 16/17 44 511,57
Esposito 72/73 55 511,25
Bobby Hull 59/60 39 511,25
Lindsay 47/48 33 503,58
Bobby Hull 67/68 44 497,38
Howe 62/63 38 493,75
Dickie Moore 57/58 36 483,90
Gare 79/80 56 449,32
Simmer 79/80 56 449,32
Sid Abel 48/49 28 448,03
Esposito 69/70 43 442,33
 
Could you, please, specify, which method did you use exactly?
Sure, I think it was from one of your threads around that time, like 2015 maybe. I don't recall all the details but there was an adjustment going on whereby adjustments were based on the average goal production of all players for a given season; and looking at the best goal producers off of that basis. Someone objected to changes in the league through history, and I'm not sure if it was you or someone else, but I used Excel after I got the raw data from NHL.com. Based on the size of the league for the given season, I used the average first-liner goal production, while excluding defenseman entries, and used the top three goal scorers for the given season and made a ratio:

A particular top-three goal scorer's goal production divided by goal production from the average first-line goal scorer's production from that season.

Here is an example:

Ovechkin 14-15: 53 goals

(53/(2302/89)) = 2.04908775

Colin Wilson is at the 90th position, but we went to 89 positions due to a defenseman being a top goal-scorer on the list of 90.

There were 30 teams at the time, so 3*30=90. Minus one defenseman's entry, so out of 89 instead.

2302 is the number of goals scored by the top 89. I nixed one defenseman's entry from this total.

So 2302/89 gives the average first-liner goal production for the given season.

That is the basis against which I divided, using 53 goals for Ovechkin that season.

This gives a ratio: 2.04908775.

I double-checked my calculations during the process of this analysis.

I was going to do the same for assists, and thought about updating my entries to the present, but that didn't happen.

So now it's mostly an analysis of the distant past, from the beginning of the NHL to 2015-16. A comparison against peers analysis, in terms of goal scoring.

In retrospect, as was mentioned by Regal, if I recall correctly, cutting it off at three top goal-scorers was somewhat arbitrary. Perhaps top-10 would have been better as a gradient? This matters for the career totals of this season-by-season tabulation.
 
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Colin Wilson is at the 90th position, but we went to 89 positions due to a defenseman being a top goal-scorer on the list of 90.

There were 30 teams at the time, so 3*30=90. Minus one defenseman's entry, so out of 89 instead.
Thanks!
In 14-15 there were 2 d-man in top-90 goalscorers, though? Karlsson #80, OEL # 63?
 
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