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Prospect Info: The Athletic ranks Rangers as 11th best system

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OrlandK said:
I don't think its a stylistic thing that we don't have any elite talent. I think we went 4 years in a row without a 1st round draft pick. The Athletic just rated all players in the NHL and we have one in the top 100 - the King @ 88. It's very hard to get an elite player unless you draft in the top 10; that's why we traded for a #7 last year but we settled for Lias when our preferred choices were all taken. Could have had Casey Mittelstad. probably a mistake to pass on him. But got lucky with Chytil who has a chance. And Kravtsov seems to have a chance too. Teams in the top tier generally have at least a couple of elite players and right now we have none. We can hope that our good but not great prospects become elite but that is rare, not the rule.
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I think you are very premature with your assessment of Lias and Casey Mittelstad.

The Rangers have had five first round picks in the last two years. They traded for the 2016 draft (a first and two seconds) that they never had. I expect another large draft haul this year.

It’s like the lottery. You can’t win if you don’t play.. And the more tickets you have, the better your chances.
 
bobbop said:
I think you are very premature with your assessment of Lias and Casey Mittelstad.

The Rangers have had five first round picks in the last two years. They traded for the 2016 draft (a first and two seconds) that they never had. I expect another large draft haul this year.

It’s like the lottery. You can’t win if you don’t play.. And the more tickets you have, the better your chances.
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Nothing is for certain with prospects but at this juncture Mittelstad is an elite prospect and Lias is not. Pretty much the assessment of all the top prospect evaluators. Mittelstad projects as a top 6 forward, possibly a 1C and Lias a 3rd line center, if all goes well perhaps a 2C.

Of course its better to have a boat load of good prospects instead of a couple. However a survey of the elite NHLers indicates that most were very high draft picks - top 10 or so.

I agree that we need to follow last year's path - sell off at the trade deadline to obtain more good picks and have a similar haul to last year. Then we should be towards the end of the rebuild.
 
OrlandK said:
Nothing is for certain with prospects but at this juncture Mittelstad is an elite prospect and Lias is not. Pretty much the assessment of all the top prospect evaluators. Mittelstad projects as a top 6 forward, possibly a 1C and Lias a 3rd line center, if all goes well perhaps a 2C.

Of course its better to have a boat load of good prospects instead of a couple. However a survey of the elite NHLers indicates that most were very high draft picks - top 10 or so.

I agree that we need to follow last year's path - sell off at the trade deadline to obtain more good picks and have a similar haul to last year. Then we should be towards the end of the rebuild.
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Based on what?

4G, 7A in 7 games vs 6G, 1A in 7 games
30 points in 34 NCAA games vs 28 points in 47 professional games (SHL and AHL)

Andersson was also good enough to earn a call-up to the World Championship with the senior team, unlike Mittelstadt.

Or are we going to use the extremely small sample-size in the NHL where Mittelstadt played more minutes and in a larger role due to the lack of center depth in Buffalo?
 
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OrlandK said:
Nothing is for certain with prospects but at this juncture Mittelstad is an elite prospect and Lias is not. Pretty much the assessment of all the top prospect evaluators. Mittelstad projects as a top 6 forward, possibly a 1C and Lias a 3rd line center, if all goes well perhaps a 2C.

Of course its better to have a boat load of good prospects instead of a couple. However a survey of the elite NHLers indicates that most were very high draft picks - top 10 or so.

I agree that we need to follow last year's path - sell off at the trade deadline to obtain more good picks and have a similar haul to last year. Then we should be towards the end of the rebuild.
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I actually think it may take the next two or even three trade deadline sell offs for the Rangers to possibly end up having this rebuild turn out to be worthwhile.

It will be interesting to see when they decide to stop stockpiling. If they end it too soon they run the risk of just ending up with the same, pretty good but not great group of skaters. If they wait too long they run the risk of stagnating some development of those who would progress more by being surrounded by good established NHL players.

Things can change but looking at their current cap structure timeline, when the contracts end, it kind of looks to me like they have 3 deadlines worth of players they could sell off who are mostly unlikely to be re-signed.

They have 3 classes of rookies/prospects who can hopefully come up and take over some of the spots of the departed, and they will have more behind them as the drafts go by.

To me it looks like a transition to 2021 when the contracts of Lundqvist, Staal, Shattenkirk, Smith all end, which maybe not coincidentally will be in the early years of a new CBA.

Whether or not some elite, near elite stuff comes out of that I think will come down to good scouting, luck, patience, development, yet at the very least there is a chance it does produce some of that organically which would have been difficult to say had they not decided to start stockpiling when they did.
 
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Amazing Kreiderman said:
Based on what?

4G, 7A in 7 games vs 6G, 1A in 7 games
30 points in 34 NCAA games vs 28 points in 47 professional games (SHL and AHL)

Andersson was also good enough to earn a call-up to the World Championship with the senior team, unlike Mittelstadt.

Or are we going to use the extremely small sample-size in the NHL where Mittelstadt played more minutes and in a larger role due to the lack of center depth in Buffalo?
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Based on apparent talent and skill by those who can tell such things, not by fans who continually see their teams guys as better than the others. Here is the assessment by Pronman from the Athletic, typical of how the scouting community rates these two players:

ELITE NHL PROSPECT
2. Casey Mittelstadt, C, Minnesota-Big Ten
Mittelstadt was the MVP of the World Juniors and had a decent initial showing with the Sabres as a teenager. He’s a player who stands out due to his elite offensive abilities. There are very few players outside the NHL who can create offense like he can and often he can bring fans out of their seats. He skates well, has arguably the best set of hands outside the league, and has great overall offensive instincts as a playmaker. Off the puck he’s not the best. Despite having fine size he isn’t going to be a high-end physical player and needs work defensively. However, he shields pucks fine and, given his size and elite skill package, he still has the potential to be a star in the league. I have small reservations about his production at various levels relative to his age that raises a tiny alarm in my brain, but I’ve watched him so much and see a consistently high-end guy that I’m not too concerned.

LEGIT NHL PROSPECT
3. Lias Andersson, C, New York Rangers-NHL
Andersson had an impressive season between the SHL, AHL and NHL. He was also good at the World Juniors and solid for the Swedish national team as a teenager. His two best traits are his hockey sense and work ethic. He’s the kind of player who will go through a wall to win a puck. He’s also a very smart playmaker who understands how to create offense. Skill wise he’s above-average, showing the occasional great flash. His skating is very average and may limit his offensive potential in the NHL.
 
eco's bones said:
They are all really good D prospects--it's just a matter of giving them enough time and waiting for them to be ready. Hajek has said he thinks he can make the team out of training camp though--we'll see.
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Could be just me, but I would not lump in O'Gara with these. I think it is debateable if he is even an NHL player. Saw absolutely nothing out of him last year.
 
OrlandK said:
Based on apparent talent and skill by those who can tell such things, not by fans who continually see their teams guys as better than the others. Here is the assessment by Pronman from the Athletic, typical of how the scouting community rates these two players:

ELITE NHL PROSPECT
2. Casey Mittelstadt, C, Minnesota-Big Ten
Mittelstadt was the MVP of the World Juniors and had a decent initial showing with the Sabres as a teenager. He’s a player who stands out due to his elite offensive abilities. There are very few players outside the NHL who can create offense like he can and often he can bring fans out of their seats. He skates well, has arguably the best set of hands outside the league, and has great overall offensive instincts as a playmaker. Off the puck he’s not the best. Despite having fine size he isn’t going to be a high-end physical player and needs work defensively. However, he shields pucks fine and, given his size and elite skill package, he still has the potential to be a star in the league. I have small reservations about his production at various levels relative to his age that raises a tiny alarm in my brain, but I’ve watched him so much and see a consistently high-end guy that I’m not too concerned.

LEGIT NHL PROSPECT
3. Lias Andersson, C, New York Rangers-NHL
Andersson had an impressive season between the SHL, AHL and NHL. He was also good at the World Juniors and solid for the Swedish national team as a teenager. His two best traits are his hockey sense and work ethic. He’s the kind of player who will go through a wall to win a puck. He’s also a very smart playmaker who understands how to create offense. Skill wise he’s above-average, showing the occasional great flash. His skating is very average and may limit his offensive potential in the NHL.
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I base my opinion on what I see myself, not on what Pronman writes. Does anyone truly believe Pronman has seen enough of either player to make a legitimate comparison? Elite NHL prospects should do better in college hockey than what Mittelstadt has shown.
 
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Amazing Kreiderman said:
I base my opinion on what I see myself, not on what Pronman writes. Does anyone truly believe Pronman has seen enough of either player to make a legitimate comparison? Elite NHL prospects should do better in college hockey than what Mittelstadt has shown.
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Agree with this 100%. Freshmen scoring rates from other Top Prospects over the past few years:

15-16:
Kyle Connor - 1.87 P/GP
Brock Boeser - 1.43 P/GP

16-17:
Clayton Keller - 1.45 P/GP
Henrik Borgstrom - 1.16 P/GP

17-18:
Casey Mittlestadt - 0.88 P/GP

Considering he's a '98 Birthday and strictly an offensive talent, I'd fully expect more production.
 
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The Torts Identity said:
Agree with this 100%. Freshmen scoring rates from other Top Prospects over the past few years:

15-16:
Kyle Connor - 1.87 P/GP
Brock Boeser - 1.43 P/GP

16-17:
Clayton Keller - 1.45 P/GP
Henrik Borgstrom - 1.16 P/GP

17-18:
Casey Mittlestadt - 0.88 P/GP

Considering he's a '98 Birthday and strictly an offensive talent, I'd fully expect more production.
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Players with a similar P/GP:

Danny Kristo (D+2 season but 19 at the start of his season)
Drew Stafford
JT Compher
Andrew Copp

This doesn't mean that Mittelstadt won't be better than these 4, but it certainly doesn't scream "Elite NHL prospect" to me.
 
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The Torts Identity said:
Agree with this 100%. Freshmen scoring rates from other Top Prospects over the past few years:

15-16:
Kyle Connor - 1.87 P/GP
Brock Boeser - 1.43 P/GP

16-17:
Clayton Keller - 1.45 P/GP
Henrik Borgstrom - 1.16 P/GP

17-18:
Casey Mittlestadt - 0.88 P/GP

Considering he's a '98 Birthday and strictly an offensive talent, I'd fully expect more production.
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This shows why it’s also important to not overvalue the WJC. Boeser, Connor, and Borgstrom didn’t have good WJCs in their D+1 years, but they clearly outperformed Mittelstadt for the duration of their season.

He’s a very good prospect, but his hype train is going a bit off the rails at this point. He played better than his numbers showed, but I wouldn’t say they’re that far off from what they should have been.
 
I think Mittelstadt is a really good prospect. I saw just a couple games last year and I was watching for Nanne but he didn't play much and obviously Mittelstadt did. Mittelstadt looked pretty dynamic, but not quite completely dominant. Like on old HF, I'd give him like an 8.5 B or something. That's just me. I have no vested interest in what he does; we didn't pick him, he's not our player, there's no going back on it. What Mittelstadt does is a big "whatever" to me.

I will also not compare him to Lias Andersson because we've had this conversation 14 million times since that draft and it's f***ing boring and stupid and pointless since no one knows how either guy will yet turnout. So get the f*** over it. And I don't care what Pornman or Kornandonions or anyone else thinks, either. It doesn't matter.
 
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nyr2k2 said:
I think Mittelstadt is a really good prospect. I saw just a couple games last year and I was watching for Nanne but he didn't play much and obviously Mittelstadt did. Mittelstadt looked pretty dynamic, but not quite completely dominant. Like on old HF, I'd give him like an 8.5 B or something. That's just me. I have no vested interest in what he does; we didn't pick him, he's not our player, there's no going back on it. What Mittelstadt does is a big "whatever" to me.

I will also not compare him to Lias Andersson because we've had this conversation 14 million times since that draft and it's ****ing boring and stupid and pointless since no one knows how either guy will yet turnout. So get the **** over it. And I don't care what Pornman or Kornandonions or anyone else thinks, either. It doesn't matter.
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I fully agree with you. I just don't agree with Pronman's ranking. Not that I think Lias is an elite NHL prospect. Neither of them are to me. They are quite similar in upside, but completely different in the way they play and what they bring.

Mittelstadt is your typical offense-first center who produces for you while Lias plays a 2-way game which is just as valuable, just in a different way. It's basically the choice between Zibanejad or Stepan, in my opinion.
 
OrlandK said:
Based on apparent talent and skill by those who can tell such things, not by fans who continually see their teams guys as better than the others. Here is the assessment by Pronman from the Athletic, typical of how the scouting community rates these two players:

ELITE NHL PROSPECT
2. Casey Mittelstadt, C, Minnesota-Big Ten
Mittelstadt was the MVP of the World Juniors and had a decent initial showing with the Sabres as a teenager. He’s a player who stands out due to his elite offensive abilities. There are very few players outside the NHL who can create offense like he can and often he can bring fans out of their seats. He skates well, has arguably the best set of hands outside the league, and has great overall offensive instincts as a playmaker. Off the puck he’s not the best. Despite having fine size he isn’t going to be a high-end physical player and needs work defensively. However, he shields pucks fine and, given his size and elite skill package, he still has the potential to be a star in the league. I have small reservations about his production at various levels relative to his age that raises a tiny alarm in my brain, but I’ve watched him so much and see a consistently high-end guy that I’m not too concerned.

LEGIT NHL PROSPECT
3. Lias Andersson, C, New York Rangers-NHL
Andersson had an impressive season between the SHL, AHL and NHL. He was also good at the World Juniors and solid for the Swedish national team as a teenager. His two best traits are his hockey sense and work ethic. He’s the kind of player who will go through a wall to win a puck. He’s also a very smart playmaker who understands how to create offense. Skill wise he’s above-average, showing the occasional great flash. His skating is very average and may limit his offensive potential in the NHL.
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Look, I like Pronman more than most do here but in this particular case, I do not agree with the assessment. I want to see what kind of 200 foot game Milllestadt has before I crown him as an elite prospect. I know that Lias has a 200 foot game and I want to see more of his offensive instincts. What I think you have here are two number two centers, one in the Ryan O’Reilly mold and the other more of a Mika Zibanajad.
 
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bobbop said:
Look, I like Pronman more than most do here but in this particular case, I do not agree with the assessment. I want to see what kind of 200 foot game Milllestadt has before I crown him as an elite prospect. I know that Lias has a 200 foot game and I want to see more of his offensive instincts. What I think you have here are two number two centers, one in the Ryan O’Reilly mold and the other more of a Mika Zibanajad.
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Yup, it's always quiet about Mittlestadt's 200 foot game, while we do know that Lias is a 200 ft player. And in your comparison I'd use Brassard instead of Mika (who's going to have an offensive explosion this season - book it).
 
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Chris Peters

A prospects: Filip Chytil, Lias Andersson and Vitali Kravtsov
B prospects: Igor Shestyorkin, K'Andre Miller, Brett Howden, Libor Hajek and Nils Lundkvist

The Rangers have a pretty decent rebuild starter pack going with their prospect system as constructed. They have a pair of strong center prospects selected in the first round in 2017 in Chytil and Andersson, who each could see some meaningful NHL time this season. The Blueshirts scored a trio of first-round draft picks this year, which brought a little more variety to their system. High-upside winger Kravtsov could turn that potential into being a higher-end scorer down the line. Miller is another player I took a liking to last season, and I believe he's only beginning to scratch the surface of his talent. Lundkvist is a defenseman who has a lot of different skills at his disposal and could one day become a reliable top-four defender. After years of going without first-round picks, the Rangers got five pretty good ones in a two-draft span.

They also got some outside help, bringing in Howden and Hajek in the Ryan McDonagh trade with the Tampa Bay Lightning. Both should provide some long-term depth options, with Howden showcasing strong two-way skills and Hajek taking a big step forward in his development last season. To cap that off, Shestyorkin has grown into a top-five goaltending prospect with potential to be a future No. 1 for this team.

That's just the top of the Rangers' system. There is some good depth that will help them build an even more reliable pipeline from the AHL over the next few seasons. Additionally, the number of prospects they're collecting gives some added flexibility on the trade market, in terms of both NHL talent they could ship out and options from within their prospect pool to help sweeten some deals. This system has grown a lot over the past two years.

2018-19 NHL-level impact prospect: Filip Chytil
2018-19 breakout prospect: Joey Keane
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Pipeline report and prospects to watch: Metropolitan Division
 
Pronmans ranking is a mess, his actual scout reports are good though… But the ranking is insanely NA biased, EP 9th and Heiskanen 15th is proof enough of that.
 
Not that I am in the business of defending Pronman, but in his defense, league-wide rankings are a PITA to attempt.

Keeping good tabs on one team's prospects is difficult enough, and ranking them is subject to a pretty good debate under the best of circumstances. But trying to do it for 31 teams? I don't know if there's any real viable way to do so by one's self. I think it's a project that needs multiple, knowledgeable sources.

I mean let me put it this way ---I see a ton of hockey. I've seen a ton of hockey for almost as long as someone like Pronman has been out of diapers. And I would be hesitant to put together a top 100 prospects list.

If I saw double the amount of hockey I currently do, which would require having little or no life, I would be hesitant to put together a top 100 prospects list.

There's a lot of nuances.
 
kovazub94 said:
Yup, it's always quiet about Mittlestadt's 200 foot game, while we do know that Lias is a 200 ft player. And in your comparison I'd use Brassard instead of Mika (who's going to have an offensive explosion this season - book it).
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I'd book that.

Looks good when they're up a man. Other than that he has never proven to be a legit 1st line player.
 
chosen said:
I'd book that.

Looks good when they're up a man. Other than that he has never proven to be a legit 1st line player.
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Proven - no, shown glimpses (at even strength too) that didn't get get extended because of unfortunate injuries - I think yes.
 
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