The anti-overreaction thread

[Stephen]

Meddlesome owners and GM autonomy don't really matter when you're winning. Seems to me a guy like Ed Snyder is plenty meddlesome in Philadelphia, and I'd say the life of a Flyers fan has been a lot better than ours, while all the autonomy Burke had really didn't do that much good. If the Leafs had just been on autopilot and simply done nothing and drafted high between 2009-2012 we'd really be in no different of a spot as we are now with Schenn, Kadri, Seguin, Hamilton, Rielly in the stables as we do the current cast.

 

[Leafidelity]

This seems alot more like a "I'm ok with meddling owners" than an "anti-overreaction" thread.

 

[Stephen]

This seems alot more like a "I'm ok with meddling owners" than an "anti-overreaction" thread.

Meh, it's not like we're dealing with Harold Ballard vs Sam Pollock here.

 

[charliolemieux]

Meddlesome owners and GM autonomy don't really matter when you're winning. Seems to me a guy like Ed Snyder is plenty meddlesome in Philadelphia, and I'd say the life of a Flyers fan has been a lot better than ours, while all the autonomy Burke had really didn't do that much good. If the Leafs had just been on autopilot and simply done nothing and drafted high between 2009-2012 we'd really be in no different of a spot as we are now with Schenn, Kadri, Seguin, Hamilton, Rielly in the stables as we do the current cast.

Last time Snyder meddled he forced his GM to sign Bryzy.

IS that what you mean?

 

[Stephen]

Last time Snyder meddled he forced his GM to sign Bryzy.

IS that what you mean?

Last time I checked, the Flyers finished with 103 points in 2012, which ties the Leafs all-time highest point totals, and they made it to the second round, where we haven't been since 2004. We can only dream of having the Flyers problems...

 

[colchar]

oh trust me, this will just be another overreaction thread in no time.

The thing I don't get is how some people know for sure that they will meddle to the extent that it will make the leafs a worse team.

The only thing that I care about is the improvement of the team. I don't give a crap if they will meddle or not.

Stop being so rational - don't you know this is just another excuse for a certain portion of Leafs fans to freak out?

 

[Seedling]

As a casual Leafs fan, I think Burke should have been gone two years ago. Couple that with the rumours and new ownership and this should be a surprise to nobody. I was not surprised at all. I am more surprised he has lasted this long.

It's moot now. On with the Nonis era.

 

[colchar]

1) The way the Blue Jays are structured and the way the Leafs are structured are fundamentally different. The Blue Jays, for one, have Paul Beeston. He possesses considerable knowledge, and is a great person as well as friend that Alex Anthropolous reports to. More importantly, he is the link for the general manager to the Owners when discussing financial matters. His background in baseball is an added bonus because he understands the player market. The Leafs have no such person.

They are going to appoint a new President so hopefully they will choose the right one and he can function like Beeston does.

2) I agree that meddling Owners are a distraction. However, this becomes secondary if a team is winning. Those examples you cited show relatively winning organizations, or at least with a history of such (Dallas Cowboys). When the Leafs were winning at the time, it was a secondary issue. Now that the Leafs are losing, it is a primary issue. The solution appears to be to start winning, again.

Just because they fired him does not mean they are meddling. But that won't stop people here from jumping to conclusions and acting like the Board are out to ruin the Leafs.

The question becomes to what degree does the current ownership impede the hockey decisions being made in this city. Are they going to be negative towards winning or positive towards winning? I think regardless, you have to be able, as owners, to trust what your hockey minds are telling you. Right now it just seems like too many people are trying to get behind the wheel.

See above - they fired someone but that does not mean that they are meddling as it is all speculation at this point.

Think of it like the positioning at a university. You have a professor (formerly Burke), who has a senior professor who is the head of that subject's department (no such person for the Leafs). This person would then report to the Dean or President of University (Owners), or something.

Department Chairs are administrative, they play no role in what or how a prof teaches. So long as the prof doesn't do something ridiculous they have autonomy.

 

[colchar]

Where exactly did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.

Our team with Seguin+Hamilton+Knight>>>>>>>>>Our team with Kessel. Period.

 

[Epictetus]

They are going to appoint a new President so hopefully they will choose the right one and he can function like Beeston does.

The person has to be able to strike a relationship with the Owners and GM, so it'll be interesting to see who they hire. It's weird because Burke would have actually been a suitable option, however, I guess we are to assume (all speculation at this point) the Owners did not approve of him (personally).

Just because they fired him does not mean they are meddling. But that won't stop people here from jumping to conclusions and acting like the Board are out to ruin the Leafs.

This dates back to pre-Burke, with the likes of Pat Quinn, where it was rumored that he did not have full control. The point was, at the time, this was under the surface since the team was winning. Now that they are losing the whole issue of owners approving a full rebuild, being without playoffs for so long, etc. comes up.

See above - they fired someone but that does not mean that they are meddling as it is all speculation at this point.

Everything is speculative if it is not directly from the source. However, in modern sports, it is imperative that Owners are going to interfere. They want to ensure what they are investing in and devoting money to financially is a successful product. The issue is to let those with the supposed training and background in player markets and building a team make those decisions, not a biased owner.

Department Chairs are administrative, they play no role in what or how a prof teaches. So long as the prof doesn't do something ridiculous they have autonomy.

This isn't completely true. Testing, grading, textbooks, scheduling, and course-make up all have administrative components. The prof. has to oblige by university policies, regardless of how knowledgeable he is in his particular field. And sometimes this can impede upon him teaching.

John Davidson would have been perfect.

I suggested him in another thread expressing regret that he went to Columbus. I am glad to see another poster have similar thoughts about his work.

 

[ACC1224]

They are going to appoint a new President so hopefully they will choose the right one and he can function like Beeston does.

John Davidson would have been perfect.

Bring back Quinn? Gretzky?

 

[Darcy Tucker]

if we had Seguin and a couple of prospects now wed still be just as bad of a team and everyone would be jonesing for a young dynamic sniper. I mean if Seguin was here would he even be regarded that highly? hed be a 50 point center and probably disliked by a lot of people for not being more physical or higher scoring. We need Kessel as much as we need Seguin. Kessel will out produce him every year and if Hamilton makes up for that then whatever, we still got the best player in the deal. Cant believe this conversation still comes up all the time. get over it people.

 

[ryno23]

What the Leafs need is a Ken Dryden type to play middle man between the suits and the hockey ops. Dryden knew the game and loved the political dealings and the way you have to massage the suits and kiss ass.

The Leafs were good with him and Quinn where Quinn had to report to Dryden although they had a frosty relationship it allowed Dryden to smooth the message to the board instead of letting another stubbord Irish ***** just like Burke make board presentations.

Burke needed a middle man to soften the message and be a go between and he never had that with the new board.

 

[King Mapes]

Where exactly did I say that? Don't put words in my mouth.

Our team with Seguin+Hamilton+Knight>>>>>>>>>Our team with Kessel. Period.

Never understood this logic. Chances are we don't draft Hamilton or Knight.. Seguin MAYBE

 

[Lebanese Leaf]

What the Leafs need is a Ken Dryden type to play middle man between the suits and the hockey ops. Dryden knew the game and loved the political dealings and the way you have to massage the suits and kiss ass.

The Leafs were good with him and Quinn where Quinn had to report to Dryden although they had a frosty relationship it allowed Dryden to smooth the message to the board instead of letting another stubbord Irish ***** just like Burke make board presentations.

Burke needed a middle man to soften the message and be a go between and he never had that with the new board.

That's actually a good idea.

 

[birddog*]

Burke would have eventually gotten the job done but along the way we would have had to listen to him rant and put up with his **** you attitude. I can't say I will miss that. In fact It's a relief in many ways.

Nonis hasn't shown he is any less competent and in fact has a nice track record of keeping young top players and building.

I just hope we ice a young team and don't get upset when Kadri gives the puck away. Instead let's have fun watching the kids grow and learn. I don't think it benefits anyone to be icing a team of oldtimers that won't be around in 3-4 years. That said I think Nonis is prepared and plans to do this.

We'll have to wait and see. But to jump all over him after only a day on the job is unfair.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Never understood this logic. Chances are we don't draft Hamilton or Knight.. Seguin MAYBE

No,we would have taken Courturier(SP?),even better.

The Canucks would jump Hamilton for Luongo right now.

 

[Kessley Snipes*]

Why do you hate suits who go to hockey games? Are you just jealous or envious about people more successful than yourself?

 

[DD03]

What the Leafs need is a Ken Dryden type to play middle man between the suits and the hockey ops. Dryden knew the game and loved the political dealings and the way you have to massage the suits and kiss ass.

The Leafs were good with him and Quinn where Quinn had to report to Dryden although they had a frosty relationship it allowed Dryden to smooth the message to the board instead of letting another stubbord Irish ***** just like Burke make board presentations.

Burke needed a middle man to soften the message and be a go between and he never had that with the new board.

That's exactly the problem. It's just like Don Cherry with CBC executives. Almost gets himself fired every time just because he doesn't know how to talk to proper executives now a days.

 

[Woodman19]

First off, I want to start by saying I hate suits in sports. I hate suits who have platinum seats at the ACC, and I hate suits in ownership who meddle with sports franchises even more.

But let's take a step back from today's events and analyze what it means to have Anselmi + Rogers/Bell running the show, and if this means the franchise is truly boned like so many of you are insisting. MLSE has been heavily involved in Leafs ownership essentially since 1998. Whether it's Tanenbaum or Anselmi doesn't change anything, they're pretty much the same guy.

Now, with Rogers and Bell taking over the teacher's pension, many seem to think that this now means more meddling by Anselmi, which is where much of the angst is coming from. But looking at how Rogers' ownership has affected the Blue Jays, especially recently, we can see that Anthropolous has complete autonomy in baseball decisions. Sure he has to get permission from them before making big moves, but that is the case for every manager in every league with every owner.

And let's take a look at some of the most successful/storied sports franchises in the world, and see how much more "meddling" ownership can be...

-Dallas Cowboys: Jerry Jones, a huge personality who certainly meddles with his franchise, and has been since 1989. He has a say in who gets hired, who gets drafted, and constantly is involved in the media. Despite recent failures, they are still a yearly competitive team who has had considerable success during his tenure.

-Dallas Mavericks: Mark Cuban, another huge celebrity personality. Has had his own reality shows, appeared in TV shows, very loud and outspoken. Loves his team, and is constantly meddling in basketball related decisions.

-New York Yankees: George Steinbrenner, from 1973 until his death in 2010, he owned the Yankees and was a celebrity. He meddled like no one else, and had his fingerprints all over every aspect of the franchise. And yet the Yankees were and continue to be one of the world's most successful franchises.

-Manchester United: Malcolm Glazer, the club was bought from the public because they were in debt and Glazer increased his ownership up to 75%. The fans hated and continue to hate the ownership, but that hasn't stopped them form continuing to be one of the world's richest and most successful sports franchises.

-Chelsea FC: Roman Abramovich, perhaps the poster boy for meddling with his team. The man has no patience, and constantly fires his managers after the smallest of miscues. He is a laughingstock among many fans, and many Chelsea supporters hate how much he meddles. Nonetheless, they have become a football powerhouse during his ownership, and just recently won the Champions league in 2012.

I can keep going, but I'll leave it at that for now. I'm sure many of you have more examples.

Not that I disagree with your idea with over reactions and medling owners Jerry Jones is unique in that he is the General Manager of the Cowboys and he ran Jimmy Johnson out of the team which effectively ended the Cowboys relevence. They only time since then they have had success was when he hired Bill Parcells to run the team.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Burke deserved what he got. He sucked. New ownership has every right to pick the guy they want to run the show. Meddling....what?

The only thing they did wrong was not fire Burke as soon as the deal was consummated. Bye Bye Burke and take your 12 dollar hot dogs with you....idiot.

 

[Lebanese Leaf]

Why do you hate suits who go to hockey games? Are you just jealous or envious about people more successful than yourself?

It's not that fact that they wear suits, its the attitude they bring to the ACC. They sit quietly in the best seats in the house, focusing very little on the game, instead talking to clients or texting away on their phones. They usually get these tickets for free from their corporations, and do not value them as much as a passionate fan would. They make little to no noise, and they take their time getting back to their seats after an intermission, showing you that they care much less than we do about the outcome of the game. The ACC is probably the worst arena in lower bowl attendance immediately after an intermission. Watch it next time and notice how many empty seats there are.

Despite Toronto having the best hockey fans in the world, our arena is far form hostile, loud, or in any way intimidating, and it's their fault. I remember one game I was at the ACC, they showed a rowdy fan in the lower bowl just passionately cheering and dancing, and behind him you see two suits who are inferiorly looking at him like "eww, what an idiot.." while they sit with their legs crossed and eating sushi.

 

[ACC1224]

It's not that fact that they wear suits, its the attitude they bring to the ACC. They sit quietly in the best seats in the house, focusing very little on the game, instead talking to clients or texting away on their phones. They usually get these tickets for free from their corporations, and do not value them as much as a passionate fan would. They make little to no noise, and they take their time getting back to their seats after an intermission, showing you that they care much less than we do about the outcome of the game. The ACC is probably the worst arena in lower bowl attendance immediately after an intermission. Watch it next time and notice how many empty seats there are.

Despite Toronto having the best hockey fans in the world, our arena is far form hostile, loud, or in any way intimidating, and it's their fault. I remember one game I was at the ACC, they showed a rowdy fan in the lower bowl just passionately cheering and dancing, and behind him you see two suits who are inferiorly looking at him like "eww, what an idiot.." while they sit with their legs crossed and eating sushi.

My seats are 2nd last row Purple and see many doing this same thing.

Makes no difference what type of fans attend, when the Leafs play well the place is loud.

 

[Kessley Snipes*]

It's not that fact that they wear suits, its the attitude they bring to the ACC. They sit quietly in the best seats in the house, focusing very little on the game, instead talking to clients or texting away on their phones. They usually get these tickets for free from their corporations, and do not value them as much as a passionate fan would. They make little to no noise, and they take their time getting back to their seats after an intermission, showing you that they care much less than we do about the outcome of the game. The ACC is probably the worst arena in lower bowl attendance immediately after an intermission. Watch it next time and notice how many empty seats there are.

Despite Toronto having the best hockey fans in the world, our arena is far form hostile, loud, or in any way intimidating, and it's their fault. I remember one game I was at the ACC, they showed a rowdy fan in the lower bowl just passionately cheering and dancing, and behind him you see two suits who are inferiorly looking at him like "eww, what an idiot.." while they sit with their legs crossed and eating sushi.

I bolded the parts that proved my point. The first part shows envy and the second part demonstrates how you lump them all into one category. A lot of time they are late coming back to their seats because they are in the platinum lounge, probably finishing a drink that they arent allowed to take back to their seat and are likely watching the game from the tunnel or one of the many tv's until they are finished.

 

[nsleaf]

Why oh why are posters calling the new ownership meddlesome???? Where is the evidence to this?

They fired Burke because they are his boss and that is thier responsibility. Why they did it is for speculators and rumor mongers.