The 81-82 Nordiques

[decma]

Recent threads on Tardif and Cloutier led me to do a deep dive on the early 80s Nords, and especially the 81-82 team.

But first, to set some context, a brief review of their previous season. In 80-81, Que finished tied for 10th in the league (with Chi), with 78 points (30-32-18). They were 4th in the Adams, but this was the last season of the balanced schedule (everyone played everyone four times), with the playoffs in a 1-16 format, so the divisions were meaningless.

Not bad for their second season in the league, and they finished ahead of Edm (14th, 74 pts), Hfd (18th, 60 pts), and Wpg (21st, 32 points).

They were seeded 11th (Chi had a tiebreak advantage over them and got the 10th seed) and lost a tough first round matchup to Philly, the 6th seed, 3 games to 2, with the home team winning each game in the series.

P. Stastny and Richard led the team with 109 and 103 points. Anton had 85, and another six forwards scored at a clip of 0.8 ppg or better (Ftorek, Goulet, Hunter, Tardif, Cloutier, and, before he was traded to Cgy for Dan Bouchard, Jamie Hislop).

Remarkably, their top scoring d-man, Dave Pichette, had only 20 pts (in 46 games). Mario Marois, acquired from Van at the deadline, had 7 pts in 11 games.

I think expectations for the 81-82 season were high, based on their offseason additions of M. Stastny and Frycer, and with Bouchard and Marois now being available for the full season (in 80-81, Bouchard went 19-5-5 for them after the acquisition from Cgy, and was a big step up over Michel Plasse, Michel Dion, and Ron Grahame).

Further, I think improvement was expected given that most of their players were young. Eight of their regular forwards to start the 81-82 season - Peter, Anton, Frycer, Cloutier, Goulet, Hunter, Pierre Lacroix, and Alan Cote – were in their early 20s, as were their top three d-men – Marois, Pichette, and Rochefort).

But they ended up improving by only 4 pts, to 82 (33-31-16).

The playoff upsets over Mtl and Bos probably lead the campaign to have been considered a successful one, but was the lack of improvement a disappointment?

One thing that stands out about their season is the forward depth. They had seven forwards score at least 70 pts (the three Stastnys, Cloutier, Goulet, Hunter, and Tardif). Richard had 41 in 59 games, and Frycer had 37 in 47 games before the late season trade to Tor for Paiment (add in Paiment’s 13 in 8 games, and they combined for 50 pts in 55 games).

I can’t think of another team that had seven forwards with at least 70 pts.

To see how rare it is, I checked the top 50 scoring teams in NHL history. Each of them had at least 340 goals scored (at 356, the 81-82 Nords rank 24th). Among these 50 teams, the median points total for the 7th highest scoring forward is 46, well below Tardif’s 70.

Only four other of these teams had 60+ pts from their 7th highest scoring forward: the 74-75 Sabres (Craig Ramsay 64), 82-83 Nords (Hunter 63), the 70-71 Bruins (Derek Sanderson 63), and the 92-93 Pens (Shawn McEachern 61).

Is Tardif’s 81-82 season the best offensive season by a 3rd liner in NHL history? Or at least in the post-merger era?

I guess it may depend on how we define third liners. Tardif truly was a third liner in terms of ES linemates. It was often the Stastnys together and Goulet-Hunter-Cloutier, with Frycer and then Paiment getting some time in the top 6.

Here are Quebec’s most common combinations of forwards getting points on the same ES goals (not counting their two empty netters that season). We see the Stastny combinations and Goulet-Hunter-Cloutier a lot, and the only other combinations with 10 or more goals were Alan Cote with Peter and with Marian:

Peter and Marian 39

Hunter and Cloutier 33

Peter and Anton 31

Hunter and Goulet 26

Goulet and Cloutier 20

Anton and Marian 17

Peter and Frycer 16

Peter and Cote 13

Cote and Marian 11

Tardif was shuffled around a lot – in terms of position (LW and C) and linemates. His forward partners on ES goals were Richard (8), Cloutier (7), Marian (6), Anton (5), Goulet (5), Lacroix (5), Aubry (4), Frycer (4), Peter (3), Cote (3), Gillis (2), McCrae (1), Ftorek (1), and Paiment (1), and I think it is fair to say that overall he was 7th (and maybe 8th after the Paiment acquisition) in terms of ice time with offensively gifted linemates.

How unusual were the Nords of this era in terms of 1) having so much forward depth? (in addition to 80/81 and 81/82 covered in detail above, 82/83 had Hunter as the 7th leading forward scorer, 3rd highest among the 50 highest scoring teams of all time, and even in 83/84, with Cloutier and Tardif gone, Tony McKegney was the 7th forward with 51 points) and 2) not having high scoring d-men (their highest scoring dman during those four seasons was Pichette (20), Marois (43), Pichette (27) and Marois (49))?

I know I have been all over the place in this post. Any thoughts on the Nords of this era, whether expectations were met, and whether their scoring distribution and roster construction were a little unusual?

 

[The Panther]

They had a lot of forward depth, though I think several teams had unusually high offensive depth in that period because of (a) 18-year-olds being allowed to be drafted and play, and (b) the greater European / American presence.

About Tardif (whom I suspect was one of the truly best players of the mid-to-late-1970s), I think I noted in another thread that his stats in 1981-82 are bizarre. He scored 33 goals in his first 47 games (56-goal pace), and at one point was second in the NHL to Gretzky in goals.

Then he scored 1 goal in the next 15 games, and overall 6 in his last 28 games.

There doesn't appear to be any injury (no missed games) when his slump began. What happened here? Was he suddenly demoted out of the top-six while scoring at a 56-goal pace? Or did he just go into a massive slump, inexplicably?

 

[Michael Farkas]

There doesn't appear to be any injury (no missed games) when his slump began. What happened here? Was he suddenly demoted out of the top-six while scoring at a 56-goal pace? Or did he just go into a massive slump, inexplicably?

He was mostly on a rotating cast of a third line the whole time, which decma more or less says too. As his interest started to fade (as was his style), his ice time went with it. He was also shooting at like 28% for the first half of the year, which helps. Late season and into the playoffs, he was barely getting regular shifts.

 

[decma]

There doesn't appear to be any injury (no missed games) when his slump began. What happened here? Was he suddenly demoted out of the top-six while scoring at a 56-goal pace? Or did he just go into a massive slump, inexplicably?

It's not that he was off to a great start by being in the top-six and was then suddenly demoted. He was never in the top-six and somehow got off to the great start playing on the 3rd line (and on the point on the PP).

I think his luck and effort went down as the season went on, which led to reduced ice time.

Tardif clashed with management and coaches (and reportedly some players) throughout his time with Que, and I think that made the on-ice situation worse.

Here is a brief summary of the tumultuous history he had with the franchise leading up to the 81-82 season.

First, he held out (missing training camp) in 79/80 (the Nords' first NHL season) until management renegotiated his contract.

At the end of the 79-80 season, there were rumours that he would be traded.

He wasn't traded, but he was in the middle of a controversy coming out of training camp the next season (80/81) when Dave Farrish was cut. There were lots of stories about a rift between the English and French speaking players on the team, and Farrish told the Toronto Star that Tardif and Cloutier didn't even talk to him.

From The Hockey News:
Farrish also told the Toronto Star, “I was there a month and a half before Marc Tardif said hello to me—and we sat next to each other in the dressing room… and Buddy Cloutier never spoke to me at all.”

In a follow up article, Michel Parizeau (former Nords (WHA) captain) defended Tardif and basically said he doesn't talk to anyone:

Marc Tardif has commented in the papers here about Dave Farrish’s charge that Tardif never talked to him. That’s just the way Tardif is. He doesn’t speak to French players more than the English guys. He’s just a low-key person who doesn’t speak that much to anyone. That’s why he didn’t want to be the captain last year. He’s not the kind of guy who socializes with the players like a real leader should. That’s just not his nature.

The same thing goes for Buddy Cloutier. He’s just a kid from Quebec City. He’s never been out of here and he can hardly speak English. So he’s got the same problem with the English guys that the English guys do with him: They can’t communicate with each other. Buddy is one of the few guys on our team who is not very good at speaking English. That’s the reason he’s so quiet.

In November 80, after Bergeron became coach six games into the season, THN reported that Bergeron had a "long meeting" with Tardif, and that Bergeron "told the struggling Stastny brothers that he would give them time to become acclimatized to the North American style of hockey." During those first six games of the season, Tardif had 5 points, Anton 4, and Peter 3.

Then, late in that 80/81 season, in a story that would never appear today, and perhaps even then would only appear in the Quebec media, it was reported that Cloutier had accused P Stastny of not wanting to play with him or Tardif (and of not passing the puck to them when he was playing with them).

From THN:

Real Cloutier has accused Peter Stastny of not wanting to play with him. The Nordiques’ rightwinger made the astounding accusation following Quebec’s recent 4-3 loss at the hands of the Jets, in Winnipeg. Maurice Dumas, of Le Soleil, quotes Cloutier as saying: “It’s easy to see. Peter wants to play with his brother Anton and he refuses to pass the puck to Marc [Tardif] and me.”

According to Albert Ladouceur, of Le Journal de Quebec, Cloutier also said: “Peter is not interested in seeing Marc and me pick up points. How can you play hockey when you never get the puck?”

According to both newsmen, coach Michel Bergeron tried to dismiss the incident as a mere childish outburst. Then he added: “Peter has never told me he didn’t want to play with Marc and Real anymore. He’s top much of a pro to do that. If anybody passes the puck on this team, it’s Peter. But a winger has to skate and get into the open if he wants to get the puck.”

Cloutier and Tardif had been playing with Peter Stastny for eight games and had collected a total of 30 points between the three of them, during that brief period. However, Bergeron had benched the two wingers in the third period of the Winnipeg game, and had replaced them with Anton Stastny and Robbie Ftorek.

As for Stastny, he was badly shaken by Cloutier’s remarks. The team’s leading scorer and most respected player told Dumas and Ladouceur: “I can get mad too. I’m surprised and saddened over Real’s statements. My job is to carry the puck and to pass it to my wingers. I don’t start checking which of my teammates is there.
“I talk more with Anton on and off the ice, because he’s my brother and because we understand each other well,” he added. “This year, I’m learning a lot of things; I’m observing. Next year, it will be different. People will see I can get mad too.”

The next day, as the Nordiques prepared for a game in Denver, coach Bergeron had a lengthy meeting with Cloutier. But when it was over, Cloutier still stuck to his opinion, adding only that he could understand Peter preferring to play with his brother. He also said that he did not mind playing with Peter.

Peter was still very disturbed. He told Ladouceur: “I still can’t understand why Real said that. He shouldn’t jump to conclusions just because we had one or two bad games, recently. He reached a judgement too quickly.”

Meanwhile, Bergeron came up with an astounding observation. Ladouceur quoted him as saying that he hoped this affair “really comes from him, [Cloutier],” meaning that perhaps Cloutier might have been put up to it by another player. According to Ladouceur, Tardif jumped when he was informed of Bergeron’s observation.

Let columnist Claude Larochelle, of Le Soleil, conclude this sad tale: “After having fled the communist nightmare, the unhappy center, [Stastny] must be wondering into what kind of trap he has fallen. Poor Peter, who has been playing his heart out since the start of the season, who shows a very special brand of guts on the road as well as at the Coliseum, is accused of hogging the puck because he wants his little brother in place of Marc Tardif, on left wing.”

So there was a lot going on with this team heading into 81/82.

With two new Slovak wingers on the team, there were more competitors for spots alongside P. Stastny.
Cloutier would be ok, as he found a regular spot with Goulet and Hunter on the second line. And he even got some shifts with Anton and Peter when Marian was injured or slumping (although Frycer and then Paiment took a lot of those opportunities).

But Anton was entrenched as Peter's LW, with Alan Cote next in line for shifts there.

There was no room for Tardif in the top six, meaning he was playing with, as Michael Farkas put it above, a rotating cast.

The ES point combinations I posted above bear this out. Tardif barely played with P. Stastny or Hunter.

Peter was involved with 39 ES goals with Marian getting a point, 31 with Anton, 16 with Frycer, 13 with Cote, 7 with Cloutier, 4 with Pierre Lacroix, 3 with Goulet, 3 with Tardif, and 2 with Richard.

Hunter was involved with 33 ES goals with Cloutier getting a point and 26 with Goulet. Then a huge dropoff to 7 with Cote, 6 with Richard, 5 with Marian, 4 with Anton, 4 with Lacroix, 2 with Basil McCrae, and 1 each with Pierre Aubry and Frycer.

Articles from the season also bear this out.

In November 81, with Tardif and the team off to a good start, THN noted their lines as Goulet-Peter-Anton (not clear which of the wingers was playing RW); Cloutier-Hunter-Richard, and Marian-Tardif-Frycer.

The article quotes Tardif in talking about how balanced the offense was:

“The workload is now spread out on the team and the offense rests on the shoulders of many players and not just a few,” said Tardif. “The days when I would play 40 minutes in a game are over. This is further evidence of the balanced attack we have and the many talented players on the Quebec roster this year.”


In December 81, with things still going well, Bergeron notes that Tardif had had many different linemates:

Tardif was moved from left wing to the center position by his coach in training camp, and Bergeron also told him at the time that he wanted him to be a leader on the ice. Tardif has responded admirably with 20 goals in his first 28 games ....

What is even more amazing about Tardif’s goal production so far is that he has been centering Quebec’s third line and continually changing linemates. “He is supposed to be our third center after Dale Hunter and Peter Stastny,” says Bergeron. “He has played on our third line with so many different players, but his attitude is great and I have nothing negative to say about his play whatsoever. ...


I think the part I bolded sums up Tardif's season perfectly.

A December 81 article notes that Frycer had some time with Peter and Marian when Anton was out with a hand injury, and that Frycer was now playing with Tardif. More praise for Tardif from Bergeron:

"Playing with Marc (Tardif) has helped him as well, because Marc is a great skater and playmaker."

A January 82 articles mentions that Cote had been promoted to the top line with Peter and Marian.

In Feb 82, with the team slumping, a THN article quotes Bergeron criticizing Anton and Marian, but doesn't mention Tardif. The ES lines at that point were the regular ones: the Stastnys together and Goulet-Hunter-Cloutier, and the article notes that Bergeron had decided to use those as the PP lines as well (with Tardif and Pichette at the point).

A March article (before the Frycer for Paiment trade) mentions that Tardif and Frycer have been in a slump, and that Marian hasn't been scoring since he stopped playing with his brothers.

Tardif then missed a few games with injuries and rest.

An April article says Anton was being benched, Pat Hickey given a chance, and Tardif and others rested, as the team got ready for the playoffs.

By the second round of the playoffs, Tardif was barely playing.

It was bound to happen. The pace he was off to for the first half of the season was not sustainable given his third line status. Not enough ice time, not enough time with the better linemates, and no linemate regularity (and this was the last season when only 17 skaters dressed - typically 11 forwards - so there was often churn within a game among the guys who weren't in the top six).

Throw in the low-key (standoffish?) personality and poor relationship with management, and it is no surprise that once things started to go a little south, they spiraled.

 

[Gorskyontario]

I read an interview with Tardif years ago where he said by the time his career was over he was completely burnt out with hockey to the point where he never put on skates again any any alumni games or anything.

I may be misremembering so I don't want to miss quote him.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Remarkably, their top scoring d-man, Dave Pichette, had only 20 pts (in 46 games). Mario Marois, acquired from Van at the deadline, had 7 pts in 11 games.

I have nothing to add to this thread - I'm really enjoying the responses and learning more about these QUE teams - but I have to say, this is baffling. Five 70+ point scorers and your top D-man only has 20 points...

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think they couldn't skate...I'd have to go back and check to be more sure. But it's a good point, how much harder was it for them to get the puck up the ice...

 

[Johnny Engine]

I have nothing to add to this thread - I'm really enjoying the responses and learning more about these QUE teams - but I have to say, this is baffling. Five 70+ point scorers and your top D-man only has 20 points...

It sounds a lot like the 2008 Hurricanes, where their assumed quarterback, a post-prime, post-injury Frank Kaberle, shambled through a 22 point season, and then in the last leg of the season, Joe Corvo arrived (like Marois) to put up more typical offensive defenseman numbers the rest of the way. Upthread it was also mentioned that Tardif played the point, for which Carolina had Ray Whitney.

 

[The Panther]

I have nothing to add to this thread - I'm really enjoying the responses and learning more about these QUE teams - but I have to say, this is baffling. Five 70+ point scorers and your top D-man only has 20 points...

So, Tarfif playing the point on the PP (i.e., 4 forwards) might partly explain this. You'd otherwise think any high-scoring team with a bunch of PPG-forwards would automatically spot the PP D-man at least 45-50 points!

Okay... so Tarfif scored 33 goals in 47 games... on the third line? If so, he must have been the most productive third-line goal scorer in NHL history (albeit he fell off the cliff after game 47).

You do get the impression with Tardif that he was not a "hockey lifer" kind of guy. More like an extremely talented offensive player who would play as long as it was kind of fun for him.

 

[Gorskyontario]

You do get the impression with Tardif that he was not a "hockey lifer" kind of guy. More like an extremely talented offensive player who would play as long as it was kind of fun for him.

He had a bad injury in the mid 70s in the WHA where he almost died because someone jumped him. That probably took away a lot of his love for the game.

 

[Staniowski]

The Nords of the early '80s were one of the NHL's most interesting and exciting teams of that era. Many skilled players; Stastny-mania; the intense Battle of Quebec; and several colourful characters (and not just the players).

They had some talented forwards, led by the Stastny brothers, sniper Michel Goulet, Dale Hunter, and skilled guys like Cloutier, Tardif, and Sauve. They were fun to watch.

As mentioned, they were sometimes lacking a star at D, although Mario Marois joined the team sometime after the season being discussed. And they had Anders Eldebrink for a short time, and Normand Rochefort was a good defenseman, but not an offensive star.

Also, while they had several talented forwards, none of them were major difference-makers in the league. So they were always a long-shot to win a Cup.

But I believe they went to the Semis twice. So, I think they did about as well as could be expected.

 

[LightningStorm]

Before talking about the Nordiques specifically, the 1982 playoffs have fascinated me since learning about them due to me having a hard time thinking of a (4 round) playoff series with a combo of an exciting first round yet dull final 2 rounds. The first round was great, with the Nords upset of the Habs starting the Battle of Quebec with a bang, the 2 time defending champ Isles coming so close to getting upset by a mediocre Pens team, and most exciting was the Kings dramatic win over the Oilers after Gretzky's historic season. 2nd round was exciting in the East. Isles won the Battle of NY, and then the Nords had an encore with their game 7 win in Boston. But the conference finals were anticlimactic, with the Isles sweeping the Nords and the Nucks beating the Hawks in 5, followed by the Isles sweeping the Nucks in the SCF. The Nords series were a microcosm for how climactic or anticlimactic each round on the whole was.

Now to the Nords, I've often wondered about the cultural impact of them upsetting the Habs in 1982. QC is more of a pure Francophone city, in contrast to the more bilingual Montreal. The Nords won the Avco Cup in 1977, but I wouldn't be surprised if it got completely overshadowed by the Habs winning it all that season, and their 70's dynasty as a whole. This series, the Nords 3rd season in the NHL, was the first huge marquee matchup between them. It's obvious how much QC wanted to knock off the mighty Habs, but I think the Habs losing this series helped make the instant distain mutual, as this had to be embarrassing for the remnants of the Habs fading dynasty to lose to their provincial rival in their very first playoff series. Especially because the pride QC felt after that series must've been in overdrive. Add all this up and you had the combustible fuel for what became a heated rivalry.

This must've been an interesting cultural moment where Quebecois, formerly in lockstep with the Habs, for decades, suddenly were divided. The Habs obviously had the longtime tradition of being the winningest franchise in contrast to the brand new Nords. But the Nords could market themselves as the more pure French Canadian team with QC being a more Francophone city.