CokenoPepsi
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- Oct 28, 2016
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The 5th best player ever is ...
- Thread starter Beliveau
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gritdash60
Registered User
He has only played 59 fewer games than Bobby Orr, who everybody has in the top 4
How much longer do we need to wait?
McDavid before age 27:
-5x Art Ross
-4x Pearson
-3x Hart
Mario Lemieux career (played 317 more games than Connor has)
-6x Art Ross
-4x Pearson
-3x Hart
McDavid is also one of only 4 players in NHL history to lead the league in goals & assists in the same season (while also leading in assists-per-game & goals-per-game rates)
(Gretzky (3), Mario (2), Howe (1), McDavid (1)
He is currently 3rd all-time in pts/game behind only Mario and Gretzky.
He is top 5 today. Will be top 2 in the future.
Sasha Orlov
Lord of the Manor
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I disagree on 2 fronts.
First of all Bobby Orr was a transformational Dman and won 2 SCs so the 59 fewer games doesn't matter.
The second front is Crosby who has basically been elite or just below it for 19 straight seasons and is the captain of a SC winner 3 times and brings more than just scoring to the table.
I'm also not one of those guys that says that McDavid can't be ranked as part of the Big 4 or bump it to the Big 5 without a SC but winning does mean something.
nowhereman
Registered User
Except with Lemieux, he was lapping the field and then some. And, if not for injuries, would have significantly outperformed his final trophy count. McDavid has only ran away with the scoring race in one full, non-covid season and has had seasons where he's just barely beaten the likes of Johnny Gaudreau and Jonathan Huberdeau.
McDavid is essentially a Jagr-level offensive talent who doesn't have to deal with a Gretzky or Lemieux-level talent jacking his hardware. Will he end up top 5, when all is said and done? There's a very good chance. But he is no Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr.
Video Nasty
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Which is why if some list McDavid higher than Orr and Lemieux in the future, it will be because they value both talent and longevity.
Only run away with one scoring race? His performance last year proved that 2020-2021 was no fluke and thus it has been re-evaluated as a valid dominate win. Everyone played a 56 game schedule. McDavid played all 56 games.
Why does Lemieux get full credit for partial seasons and McDavid doesn’t for playing the full slate of games?
Lemieux will always be considered the greater, something I fervently agree with, but the path is wide open for McDavid to finish as high as #2, particularly if he plays as many games as Orr and Lemieux through his 1997 retirement combined.
Nathaniel
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Lol you convientley left out the Conn smythe and cups. You can chalk up 2 of each for both Orr and Mario. BIG DIFFERENCE
Keep dreaming lol. Mario is by far the better/greater play. Anyway you want to define it McDavid comes out on the bottom. It's new years and he's 7th in scoring in his prime. Something impossible with lemieux
I left out team trophies because this is a discussion about individual players, and therefore using team trophies to compare them would not only be illogical, but also unfair. Conn Smythe is not a team trophy, but you cannot win one without first being a part of a championship-quality roster, which is not up to any individual player's control.
And if you are going to try to diss McDavid's points this year, at least do it in an honest way. He is 3rd in pts/game this season, which is a lot different than 7th like you are trying to imply. Anyone who watched the first 10-15 games could tell he was injured (even before he missed games with the injury),
since being healthy:
8-23-31 in 15 games (2.06 pts/game)
Video Nasty
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PPG only matters to him when he’s talking about Crosby.
McVespa99
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Come on West. Even you know the answer to this. Think Marcel Dionne vs some guy who was in the right place at the right time and won 4 cups. While being a 3rd liner
Pablo El Perro
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Players play with injuries all the time. Then sometimes they tweak something and have to actually miss games. He didn't look great the first few games of the season before getting injured vs WPG. I could be wrong, just my hunch.
Bear of Bad News
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TheGoldenJet
Registered User
McDavid is healthy, in his prime, and needs to win the Ross to defend his title as the best player in the world. If he doesn’t, it will be held against him as “prime McDavid losing the Ross” to player X.
One of the reasons I never have any misgivings about placing Orr/Lemieux as high as they are despite such shitty longevity is because they not only have the regular season resume, but also playoffs.
Both Orr + Lemieux have 2 cups and 2 of the arguably greatest smythe runs ever. To me - that's insanely important. Without those - people who wanted to argue longevity over ability/peak may have more of a case to place Lemieux/Orr lower.
McDavid is lacking those smythes in his resume. Maybe if along with his regular season resume, he also already had 2 cup/smythes among the best ever - I'd be all for annointing him top 5 already. Without? Nope, not close.
McDavid will likely reach top 5 all-time eventually (there's still a chance he falls short of course), but without playoffs it'll make it harder. And to be fair, McDavid for playoffs looks a hell of a lot better today than he did 2 years ago after the major chokejob of 2021. His 2022 playoffs were amazing, and 2023 strong as well. But still lacking in an all-time sense, especially when compared to Orr/Lemieux, let alone Gretzky.
Sidney Crosby is the 5th greatest player of all-time for me. It's not unanimous, a lot of players are worthy of that spot depending on what you value most, be it Beliveau, Roy, Hasek, Jagr, Hull, etc. McDavid is definitely still behind all of those guys as of today.
The only 2 players in history who would have been able to win Ross in their sleep despite a ton of injuries/missed games every single year are Gretzky & Lemieux. Give either of those guys ~20 less games than competition, and make them only ~80% healthy in the games they do play, and they probably win every ross every year (except vs each other).
That's it. Even Gordie Howe wasn't on that level offensively.
I actually think McDavid will come back and win the Ross this year, but if he somehow falls short, it's not the end of the world. You can't win every single year.
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