Imagine a GM willfully playing below the cap and having a worst team? Not unless he was told or was bonuses for savings money. Literally, every deadline, we don't use our cap room for picks or even to retain salary on players going out to enhance returns. I don't think I ever saw Kevyn Adams as happy as when he said he had a deal for Okposo with Florida with no retention. He's a yes, man. This is Pegula's nightmare. Before he had GMs who were not as compliant. Now he has a guy he calls every day. Kevyn's own words.
The 2024-2025 Roster Thread
- Thread starter Chainshot
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Imagine a GM willfully playing below the cap and having a worst team? Not unless he was told or was bonuses for savings money. Literally, every deadline, we don't use our cap room for picks or even to retain salary on players going out to enhance returns. I don't think I ever saw Kevyn Adams as happy as when he said he had a deal for Okposo with Florida with no retention. He's a yes, man. This is Pegula's nightmare. Before he had GMs who were not as compliant. Now he has a guy he calls every day. Kevyn's own words.
Fjordy
Soul Dancing in the Dark
- Jun 20, 2018
- 20,157
- 11,252
Well, we do have a very incompetent GM, so what's surprising about that. But I was more saying that I don't think Pegula influences ALL decisions, of course he can influence some decisions that require big money or pay a player who is going to be traded (ROR), but I don't believe he influences absolutely every decision. Like claim a player on waiver (Adams seems did that before) or trading Jokiharju and adding a top 4 RD.
toddkaz
Registered User
- Nov 25, 2022
- 7,624
- 4,908
I think Pegula plays a role in every move? Why? With what you say it leaves a grey. Pegula has full control. He is the GM.
If Adams still has a job at the end of the year you will know its true.
Other than Reimer has Buffalo even put a claim in for a player?
Fjordy
Soul Dancing in the Dark
- Jun 20, 2018
- 20,157
- 11,252
joshjull
Registered User
It’s been a HUGE factor. Let’s break down the two very different situations Rossi and Cozens/Quinn developed in.
Rossi becomes a full time NHLer last season and is asked to be a top 6 center. He’s given a star winger (Kaprizov) and a long time vet winger (Zuccarello) to help him on his way. The Minny team overall is also much more experienced than the Sabres. Its a fairly wide margin. There are also no organization/roster wide development seasons going on either and they’re coached in all aspects towards the goal of winning.
Cozens/Quinn on the other hand start on a team focused on development. Playing with a ton of other kids in the same boat. There really are no established vet top 6 forwards or top 4 dmen on the team. There are also no expectations of playoffs or a focus on winning organizationally. In the 2nd season of that environment, Cozens/Quinn had a break out years production wise at 5v5 and on the PP (more so Cozens on PP). The Peterka/Cozens/Quinn 5v5 line was very exciting but also young, inconsistent and not very good in their own end. It was eventually broken up late in that year because of it. It’s certainly not a line you’d want to rely on as your 2nd line if the goal is success/playoffs.
Now we get to last season and this one. First Granato, and now Ruff, have been trying to clean up their play and getting away from the development years approach. Coaching them to play the proverbial “right way”. Which is the only coaching approach Rossi has ever dealt with. So far it’s been a mess for the Sabres with so much youth on the roster, especially at the top of the lineup. I can’t think of many teams that have tried to cram that much youth into the top 6/top 4, let alone have success doing so.
Cozens/Quinn’s 3 most common linemates the last two seasons have been; each other, Peterka and Benson. Thats 3 young players in various combos trying to figure it out at the same time. Not exactly the best situation.
By any reasonable measure, Rossi has had a big advantage over Cozens/Quinn in linemates, the roster around him and initial coaching approach. Thats not to take anything away from his play. You still have to be highly skilled/hard working player to take advantage of the opportunity he was given.
Oddly enough bringing up Benson helps make my point.
Adams either couldn’t or wouldn’t acquire a top 6 vet winger. So coming into the season, Benson was expected to be a top 6 winger. If you evaluate his play based on what’s expected of a top six winger, he’s been pretty bad. He’s producing at a 30 point pace around the same as Quinn. I’m not going to blame Benson for that. It’s on Adams for putting a teenager in a top 6 role he wasn’t ready for yet.
Regardless of whose fault it is, the roster impact still the same. We built a 2nd line with a 23yr old 2C coming off a tough year, a 22yr old RW coming off a down year. The only help they get is a 19yr old not ready to be a top 6 winger. When go over this stuff, I want to strangle Adams for his stupidity.
I don’t think it’s a red flag. I think Guerin is working off the oldest bias in the NHL, preferring the bigger player. Obviously its an assumption on my part, but Guerin is probably thinking he can get similar production while also having a bigger more physical center.
joshjull
Registered User
Either way... it is the GM's job to influence the owner. What are they doing with the youngest roster in the league again? They traded a top prospect... there must have been a story and influence associated to that. Just needed to do more. They bought out Skinner.
And when failing during the season, every other team did something..., where is the waiver pick ups? Where is the give me a spark trade? Where is the coach or assistant coach firing?
Any way you look at it, Adams is failing hard!!! Irrespective of how you feel about Pegula (who also sucks for the record)
zenthusiast
cybersabre his prophet
- Oct 20, 2009
- 19,595
- 7,312
I can easily picture pegula being hyper conservative or cheap but the degree to which Adams has done *nothing* seems beyond that
Guerin may also find it easier to see a bigger player when his red-rimmed alcohol haze has beset him for the evening.
Der Jaeger
Generational EBUG
I wonder if Adams and the front office are being paralyzed because they just don't know what to do. Not in a solely incompetent way. As if they expected this to work and don't yet know how to fix it.
Think back two years ago. Thompson, Dahlin, Mittelstadt are all developing and breaking out. All the kids are coming up and playing well. Eichel gets traded, Tuch is amazing, Krebs looks good, vibes are good. Eventually UPL starts playing like a legit starter. You end up a point out of the playoffs.
Think about the assessment they made:
- Top 2 centers
They have three who are working out (Thompson, Cozens, Mittelstadt).
- Top 2 defenseman Dahlin is amazing, Power is coming, and Samuelsson looks good.
- Goaltending UPL looks good and Levi played amazing down the stretch
- Youth movement Best young roster in hockey and best prospects in hockey
How did that go so wrong? I wonder if they just don't know what to do. That should've yielded a lot better results than what we are seeing. I can imagine Adams, Fortin, etc sitting around wondering how they fix this.
Think back two years ago. Thompson, Dahlin, Mittelstadt are all developing and breaking out. All the kids are coming up and playing well. Eichel gets traded, Tuch is amazing, Krebs looks good, vibes are good. Eventually UPL starts playing like a legit starter. You end up a point out of the playoffs.
Think about the assessment they made:
- Top 2 centers
They have three who are working out (Thompson, Cozens, Mittelstadt). - Top 2 defenseman
Dahlin is amazing, Power is coming, and Samuelsson looks good.- Goaltending
UPL looks good and Levi played amazing down the stretch- Youth movement
Best young roster in hockey and best prospects in hockeyHow did that go so wrong? I wonder if they just don't know what to do. That should've yielded a lot better results than what we are seeing. I can imagine Adams, Fortin, etc sitting around wondering how they fix this.
Selanne00008
Registered User
I wonder if Adams and the front office are being paralyzed because they just don't know what to do. Not in a solely incompetent way. As if they expected this to work and don't yet know how to fix it.
Think back two years ago. Thompson, Dahlin, Mittelstadt are all developing and breaking out. All the kids are coming up and playing well. Eichel gets traded, Tuch is amazing, Krebs looks good, vibes are good. Eventually UPL starts playing like a legit starter. You end up a point out of the playoffs.
Think about the assessment they made:
- Top 2 centers
- Top 2 defenseman
- Goaltending
- Youth movement
How did that go so wrong? I wonder if they just don't know what to do. That should've yielded a lot better results than what we are seeing. I can imagine Adams, Fortin, etc sitting around wondering how they fix this.
It's a good point. As us, the armchair GMs, I can admit I don't have a clue. Trade the 1st rounder coming up? Ok, that's fine in a vacuum. Add to the top 6 or top 4 D. Make another move or two to weaponize cap space short term, get harder to play against.
I just don't know if any of that gets them to a true contender or not, and I don't blame anyone thinking that might NOT be right and you've really gotta get out from under some of these contracts too (Power, Cozens, Sammy, etc.).
jc17
Registered User
- Jun 14, 2013
- 11,790
- 8,644
On mobile, so my short responses won't do your post justice, but I just hate typing on this
On the team/line situation: I agree with most of what you're saying, but I still think they passed on a a more ready player for upside.
At risk of rehashing 4.5 year old discussion, as silly as draft stats are most of the time guys who produce like Rossi rarely miss. The actual conversion of points isn't relevant, but they usually contribute. Stats aside, there weren't many knocks on his game, other than his size, and anyone watching him saw he didn't play small. He won more puck battles than Quinn when I watched. Idk, I just feel like they passed on guy because of size.
Disagree on Benson part because I still think that fits my idea. Its not about scoring, even though that might sound like a contradiction of the previous paragraph. I don't look at cozens and Quinn as issues because of their production this year, it's because of routine mistakes, which in my opinion have been issues since they were drafted and an issue other prospects didn't necessarily have. Of course Benson isn't perfect, and his personality probably causes fans to overlook his mistakes from time to time. But he doesn't seem to have the braindead moments the other guys mentioned have routinely, and his on-ice numbers reflect this. Maybe poor IQ moments are due to the first couple years they spent on this team, maybe its been part of their games for a while.
I still agree that a better roster helps. Quinn/cozens insulated with better linemates maybe doesn't cure their flaws but allows their strengths to outweigh negatives and look better overall. But to me, it's definitely a "maybe" and I'm still pretty far from being willing set aside the idea that one player might just be better, or better for us.
Swap cozens/Quinn with Rossi and I have no doubt our guys score more and he scores less than now. But do we give up fewer goals off of turnovers, have a more complete game? I think we might
OkimLom
Registered User
- May 3, 2010
- 15,859
- 7,314
Do I think Pegula has blocked Adams from making ANY moves like making a waiver claim or trading an asset? No. He might've had influence depending on how far the negotiations went with a potential EP40 move though because of the high value of the contract and long term consequences and ability to get out of the contract if it didn't work out short term.
Do I think the GM that put together this current roster has an abundance of self-confidence in himself in thinking that the pieces he brought in, can get the job done? Absolutely.
As for your questions, I think Kevyn went to his support staff, assessed the situation at the time, weighed his options, and came to the conclusion that it wasn't the right time to make a move or that the moves out on the market were too expensive, and wanted to see the players get out of the circumstance they were instead. I think he talked to Terry to back him up with that conclusion.
I don't think Adams is really held back from making ANY Moves, but I think there's a sense of context, and information to make sure it's the right move if a move does need to be made. I think there's a large chance that with someone like Kevyn, the NEED to make a move is at a completely different level than where fan's urgency to see a move made.
I wonder if Adams and the front office are being paralyzed because they just don't know what to do. Not in a solely incompetent way. As if they expected this to work and don't yet know how to fix it.
Think back two years ago. Thompson, Dahlin, Mittelstadt are all developing and breaking out. All the kids are coming up and playing well. Eichel gets traded, Tuch is amazing, Krebs looks good, vibes are good. Eventually UPL starts playing like a legit starter. You end up a point out of the playoffs.
Think about the assessment they made:
- Top 2 centers
- Top 2 defenseman
- Goaltending
- Youth movement
How did that go so wrong? I wonder if they just don't know what to do. That should've yielded a lot better results than what we are seeing. I can imagine Adams, Fortin, etc sitting around wondering how they fix this.
One thing that sticks out is their expressed expectation that their young players would continue to progress - more scoring, better defensively, stronger, etc.... including alluding to needing to have cap space for a bunch of them this coming summer as a stated reason for the cost cutting move of the Skinner buyout. There was no accounting for what happens if there is injury (Thompson, Quinn, Samuelsson) or backsliding (Cozens, Krebs, UPL) or just relative stagnation (UPL, Power). There was no preparation for how things normally don't continue to be a linear improvement.
And there is the constant harping on "players who want to be here" rather than just "players who will make this a better team". They've lost the lede there. Winning makes a team desirable to players. Having the confidence to make deals to sell a player on staying is missing and one of the rotten parts in their operation - the front office talks about how they only want players who want to be in Buffalo rather than wanting players who will help them win. It's building in a sense of futility for those on the ice.
And as the mistakes and lack of accountability for on-ice actions/inactions continue, there is the morale killer of members of a team not putting in the work to do their work to be their best, they are doing it just to be okay. There is no ownership that we see by players who make consistent, chronic mistakes. There is the lack of confidence in each other defensively that leads to players trying to overcompensate positionally -- enough guys have lost their 50-50's or been blown past that their d-partners gallop to an occupied area of the ice that is not their area, leaving another hole, often where the goal scorer is left uncovered. The years of it being okay to fly the zone has players not in the right position SOOO often it makes my eyes bleed.
toddkaz
Registered User
- Nov 25, 2022
- 7,624
- 4,908
When you use the word "blocked" I think thats the wrong choice of words. I don't think Adams has the power to get that far without Pegula's approval.
I think Adams runs everything by Pegula and Pegula decides. No GM can be this awful and keep their job unless they aren't the ones doing the job.
When it comes to EP40 I think Adams calls Vancouver, then after he gets off the phone he tells Pegula what Vancouver wants and they discuss it together and Pegula decides then Adams calls Vancouver back. Thats how I think the process goes.
Last edited:
Think about the assessment they made:
- Top 2 centers
- Top 2 defenseman
- Goaltending
- Youth movement
How did that go so wrong? I wonder if they just don't know what to do. That should've yielded a lot better results than what we are seeing. I can imagine Adams, Fortin, etc sitting around wondering how they fix this.
History repeated itself.
The Sabres youth movement that heavily centered around building the team with quick skilled players looked good in 2022 because the league had just watched three consecutive championships won by high-flying teams with wide open coaching philosophies in Tampa and Colorado, and everyone was emulating them.
Adam's front office built a team to play that way. Then the Bruins had a record breaking season and the Knights won the cup, both with tight checking, physical rosters and that gameplan completely grounded the high-flying teams that were looking to copy the Avs and Lightning. It proved to be an unbeatable recipe vs the new open style NHL. So then everyone in the league either copied the Knights/Bruins, or struggled mightily if they didn't, (like the Sabres).
It reminds me so much of the 93-95 era, where at the start you had games every night ending with a 5-7 final score. Most of the powerhouse teams from the beginning of that time frame played wide open hockey that was a blast to watch - until the super high scoring Devils that couldn't get over the hump against the Rangers decided to adopt Lamaire's trap and ruined the party. From there, anyone that wanted to compete copied them.
Adams and Granato were trying to play 1993 hockey in 1996, and the league ate them alive. Now, Lindy is trying to play 1999 hockey with a team that is built to play in the 80s
OkimLom
Registered User
- May 3, 2010
- 15,859
- 7,314
it’s very easy to see Kevyn being absolutely this incompetent and get this far, when the idea of Pegula being in the know has been the major factor in employment and not the success or failure of the team.
It’s quite easy to see Kevyn convincing Pegula things aren’t that bad or far off in their daily discussions. It’s very easy to see Kevyn overvaluing his own prospects, when he gives his guys a large contract after 1 productive year under the perceived opinion that the deal will be favorable down the road. Now I fully believe that Kevyn spoke to Terry about the deal, but I can see Kevyn convincing Terry it’s the right play and time to strike.
dickiedunnwrotethis
It's gotta be true.
Imitating the Avs play style might explain the Mitts/Byram. Unfortunately, if you're to adopt that kind of offensive philosophy you need the pieces to implement it and Buffalo has no MacKinnon, no Rantanen, and with all due respect to Dahlin, no Makar.
ValJamesDuex
Registered User
- Nov 4, 2021
- 12,643
- 7,339
I see the Mitts rumors picking up now btw, Boston, Calgary, MN are interested per Seravelli. Wonder if the WIld would trade Rossi for him ?
