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The 2024-2025 Roster Thread

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truthbluth said:
You are so close. The last sentence is the only one that matters. The Sabres don't use analytics more than most NHL teams. The problem is the last sentence. Your logic is
The Sabres employ a bunch of statisticians
and
The Sabres are bad
therefore
employing a bunch of statisticians makes you bad

A conclusion easily foiled by teams who use it well.

A better use of logic would be
The Sabres are bad
and
Kevyn Adams is the least qualified person to run an NHL team since Garth Snow (who also was atrocious).
Thereofore
Having a highly unqualified person run an NHL franchise will make them bad.

Easy peazy.

Where you're maybe close is the Sabres thinking that hiring a bunch of analytics staff will give them a competitive advantage when that is now just keeping pace. Every team has them.

The Sabres did, in fact, need to get faster. It was obvious last season that they weren't fast enough. That wasn't a wrong conclusion. The Sabres needs speed, jam and defensive acumen. That was correct, but he didn't do enough to change over a roster that wasn't good enough.
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It should be noted that while Garf was quite bad given the conditions he worked under (total austerity budget post Lighthouse Project going down in flames until L&M/Barclays/Getting out of the horrific Coliseum lease) he still did FAR better than Adams (who is a Milbury level incompetent).
 
I’m sure the analytics guy was screaming “NO,” as Lasorda called out Gibson to the plate, and he limped out.

There’s a place for analytics to be used as a tool but I’d rather go with DeJager’s information he gave us about the Boston Bruins…..give me intelligence first.

I still can’t believe anyone who follows the Sabres still feels Adams hasn’t been given a set of rules to follow by Pegula. Some things are just too hard to believe from a life long hockey guy like Adams. He did a great job in reshaping the bottom six, McLeod and Zucker. Who would’ve thought our core guys would shit-the-bed.

If he’s in control and serious about winning, he better do whatever it takes to complete a “Tkachuk to Florida” type trade to change the p***y style of game these guys play.
 
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truthbluth said:
You are so close. The last sentence is the only one that matters. The Sabres don't use analytics more than most NHL teams. The problem is the last sentence. Your logic is
The Sabres employ a bunch of statisticians
and
The Sabres are bad
therefore
employing a bunch of statisticians makes you bad

A conclusion easily foiled by teams who use it well.

A better use of logic would be
The Sabres are bad
and
Kevyn Adams is the least qualified person to run an NHL team since Garth Snow (who also was atrocious).
Thereofore
Having a highly unqualified person run an NHL franchise will make them bad.

Easy peazy.

Where you're maybe close is the Sabres thinking that hiring a bunch of analytics staff will give them a competitive advantage when that is now just keeping pace. Every team has them.

The Sabres did, in fact, need to get faster. It was obvious last season that they weren't fast enough. That wasn't a wrong conclusion. The Sabres needs speed, jam and defensive acumen. That was correct, but he didn't do enough to change over a roster that wasn't good enough.
Click to expand...
No, my argument is: the Sabres established their analytics department in 2021 and finished the season 25 points out of a playoff spot with Adams as GM.
3 years later, they will finish even further out of a playoff spot. with Adams as GM in spite of a fully staffed analytics department.
Ergo, analytics has been completely useless for the purposes of building a better Sabres hockey team.

You could pull players out of a hat and still end up with a better hockey team than the current iteration of the Sabres which has been heavily informed by the opinions of their analytics department. The data they're mining isn't just wrong or misused, it's been worthless. In fact, based on this season, less than worthless. No diamonds in the rough over several years uncovered through painstaking statistical number crunching, worse results this season after chasing multiple role players based on some abstract measure of "speed" (kind of the NHL equivalent of baseball's "he gets on base.") "What is it you do around here?" is my first question to Karmanos and especially his analytical underlings. They all need to f*** off and get real jobs.

Enough of relying on the statistician in any capacity to tell us who to keep and who to let go. First, it takes a sound hockey mind with keen intuition about players and their roles to build a good hockey team, and those qualities emerge over time with experience -- or never emerge, in the case of Kevyn Adams. Second, thinking data mining can give you an advantage in a sport -- any sport -- that is overwhelmingly governed by the forces of chance, luck and randomness is simply one of the more persistent delusions circulating in our sports obsessed culture. This isn't the natural world governed by rules and laws. And no amount of complex math will ever change that.
 
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slip said:
No, my argument is: the Sabres established their analytics department in 2021 and finished the season 25 points out of a playoff spot with Adams as GM.
3 years later, they will finish even further out of a playoff spot. with Adams as GM in spite of a fully staffed analytics department.
Ergo, analytics has been completely useless for the purposes of building a better Sabres hockey team.

You could pull players out of a hat and still end up with a better hockey team than the current iteration of the Sabres which has been heavily informed by the opinions of their analytics department. The data they're mining isn't just wrong or misused, it's been worthless. In fact, based on this season, less than worthless. No diamonds in the rough over several years uncovered through painstaking statistical number crunching, worse results this season after chasing multiple role players based on some abstract measure of "speed" (kind of the NHL equivalent of baseball's "he gets on base.") "What is it you do around here?" is my first question to Karmanos and especially his analytical underlings. They all need to f*** off and get real jobs.

Enough of relying on the statistician in any capacity to tell us who to keep and who to let go. First, it takes a sound hockey mind with keen intuition about players and their roles to build a good hockey team, and those qualities emerge over time with experience -- or not at all, in the case of Kevyn Adams. Second, thinking data mining can give you an advantage in a sport -- any sport -- that is overwhelmingly governed by the forces of chance, luck and randomness is simply one of the more persistent delusions circulating in our sports obsessed culture. This isn't the natural world governed by rules and laws. And no amount of complex math will ever change that.
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Why is that? McLeod could have been added because of analytics, maybe Zucker. We also don't know how well Adams uses it, do you think other GMs don't use analytics? If you don't use it, then you'll end up with a bunch of garbage on your team and the results will be the same or worse. Only dinosaurs don't use analytics.
 
BFLO said:
All of the publicly available numbers and charts say this team and most of it's players are garbage.
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Rather, this collection of players, under this coach, under this moron GM and owner have produced garbage results, resulting is bad numbers and charts.

Pluck almost any guy off this roster and put him on a good team and he will thrive -- sans Jeff Skinner, who will always suck anywhere, anytime. I still got about a dozen examples that prove this.

The garbage numbers are an effect of bad teams, but good teams are not the sum total of players with good charts.
 
Last edited:
I don't think this team is a big of a mess as it seems. It can be fixed with some easy to do steps. One is practically going to fall into the Sabres' lap.

Problem 1: team needs NHL level centers
Problem 2: structure doesn't match personnel
Problem 3: defensive corps needs bolstering

Problem 1 is going to fix itself if the Sabres continue to suck. Ostlund, Helenius, with either Misa or Hagens, and the position is solved in the long term. For the short term....

Problem 2 is a structure mismatch. You're hemorrhaging goals but have two guys on the roster who can be defensive centers: Cozens and McLeod. Create defensive lines around Cozens and McLeod. Simplify everything for Cozens and just ask him to match up against top offensive centers. It may require moving Thompson or Kulich to wing. This is the short-term center fix.

Then just wait for the problem one solution to overtake the problem 2 solution.

Problem 3 can be fixed by using the offensive wingers you may not need any more as trade bait: Quinn and Peterka.

Assuming Adams re-signs Zucker, Byram, and Greenway:

Zucker - Thompson - Tuch (just go score)
Benson - Cozens - Greenway (matchup)
Kulich - McLeod - xxx (secondary match up line)
Malenstyn - Krebs/Kozak - Lafferty (checking)

Dahlin - Byram
Power - xxx
Samuelsson - Clifton

Use Peterka and Quinn to fill holes, then tighten up and play a defensive brand of hockey. Which will shield some of the young talent coming up as well. It's not going to be a fun team, but they'll win. Ruff did it before and knows how to do it.
 
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Der Jaeger said:
I don't think this team is a big of a mess as it seems. It can be fixed with some easy to do steps. One is practically going to fall into the Sabres' lap.

Problem 1: team needs NHL level centers
Problem 2: structure doesn't match personnel
Problem 3: defensive corps needs bolstering

Problem 1 is going to fix itself if the Sabres continue to suck. Ostlund, Helenius, with either Misa or Hagens, and the position is solved in the long term. For the short term....

Problem 2 is a structure mismatch. You're hemorrhaging goals but have two guys on the roster who can be defensive centers: Cozens and McLeod. Create defensive lines around Cozens and McLeod. Simplify everything for Cozens and just ask him to match up against top offensive centers. It may require moving Thompson or Kulich to wing. This is the short-term center fix.

Then just wait for the problem one solution to overtake the problem 2 solution.

Problem 3 can be fixed by using the offensive wingers you may not need any more as trade bait: Quinn and Peterka.

Assuming Adams re-signs Zucker, Byram, and Greenway:

Zucker - Thompson - Tuch (just go score)
Benson - Cozens - Greenway (matchup)
Kulich - McLeod - xxx (secondary match up line)
Malenstyn - Krebs/Kozak - Lafferty (checking)

Dahlin - Byram
Power - xxx
Samuelsson - Clifton

Use Peterka and Quinn to fill holes, then tighten up and play a defensive brand of hockey. Which will shield some of the young talent coming up as well. It's not going to be a fun team, but they'll win. Ruff did it before and knows how to do it.
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I think this team has more problems. The defense is built incorrectly, I am convinced of this almost every game. A serious lack of vets. Look at the Flames, who are their young players playing with? Coronato plays on a line with Backlund and Coleman, and then he plays on a line with Huberdeau and Kadri, with vets. You can see partly the same thing in Washington, the same in Dallas, you need more Zuckers (personality and a good player).

You yourself said that Cozens is not a center, now you change your mind and think that he will be fine as a top 6 C, although this has not been seen for two years and he is not even close to Hischier. Honestly, I do not want to play Benson with Cozens ever again. Greenway went to UFA someone said on this board. Although I am not even sure that he is a top 6 forward.

Adams has not added a single top 6 forward in five years, you have not added either. I see how we need a top 6 C and a top 6 W, at least one of them should be a legit, stable and productive player. If Greenway is gone, add someone similar in his place. Crouse, Luostarinen, Coleman, all these guys are physical and play defense. Frederic or Tolvanen are options, but I think they are a little different in defensive ability.

I think this team really needs to seriously change, build the defense correctly, more guys who know how to play defense, preferably right-handed. Of course, we need more vets. We need smart and stable players who are hard to play against.
 
Fjordy said:
I think this team has more problems. The defense is built incorrectly, I am convinced of this almost every game. A serious lack of vets. Look at the Flames, who are their young players playing with? Coronato plays on a line with Backlund and Coleman, and then he plays on a line with Huberdeau and Kadri, with vets. You can see partly the same thing in Washington, the same in Dallas, you need more Zuckers (personality and a good player).

You yourself said that Cozens is not a center, now you change your mind and think that he will be fine as a top 6 C, although this has not been seen for two years and he is not even close to Hischier. Honestly, I do not want to play Benson with Cozens ever again. Greenway went to UFA someone said on this board. Although I am not even sure that he is a top 6 forward.

Adams has not added a single top 6 forward in five years, you have not added either. I see how we need a top 6 C and a top 6 W, at least one of them should be a legit, stable and productive player. If Greenway is gone, add someone similar in his place. Crouse, Luostarinen, Coleman, all these guys are physical and play defense. Frederic or Tolvanen are options, but I think they are a little different in defensive ability.

I think this team really needs to seriously change, build the defense correctly, more guys who know how to play defense, preferably right-handed. Of course, we need more vets. We need smart and stable players who are hard to play against.
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First point: I did the same thing. Greenway is with Cozens. McLeod and possibly a veteran is with Kulich.

Second point: I've always said Cozens was a better winger, but if he stayed at center, everyone needed to realise that he's a Cirelli style center. Just focus him on shutting down other lines, like Granato did early in his career. And he was good at it. He can move to wing later once another center emerges.

When you tighten things up, you won't need huge additions. And really, what's the gap between the Cozens line and the McLeod line that you couldn't add any of the players you mention. And Greenway needs to be retained. He's good at defense.
 
Der Jaeger said:
First point: I did the same thing. Greenway is with Cozens. McLeod and possibly a veteran is with Kulich.

Second point: I've always said Cozens was a better winger, but if he stayed at center, everyone needed to realise that he's a Cirelli style center. Just focus him on shutting down other lines, like Granato did early in his career. And he was good at it. He can move to wing later once another center emerges.

When you tighten things up, you won't need huge additions. And really, what's the gap between the Cozens line and the McLeod line that you couldn't add any of the players you mention. And Greenway needs to be retained. He's good at defense.
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I think you have a pretty risky plan. Greenway is a vet, ok, Benson is a young guy, Cozens is still young and inconsistent to me. But even Greenway is not a legit top 6 forward and has always been a good third liner. I mean, we literally played with Benson - Cozens - Quinn in the top 6 this season, then Quinn got taken away from Cozens and he did better. Thompson has bad numbers with Cozens on the line. I don't want to say Dylan is a black hole, but he is very inconsistent and maybe not a very smart player, that's what it looks like. McLeod's line is fine if it's a vet added or just a good mature player. But I don't like our second line, it's very risky.

First of all, he didn't play all the time, yes, he had such games, but how are you going to make Cozens the second Cirelli? Who should do it? Ruff doesn't seem like he's going to do it. Also, Cirelli had experienced and good partners and a good team. If you want Cozens to play center, surround him with good and probably experienced partners, add a legit top 6 forward, think carefully about who will play on his second wing. When I say legit top 6 forward, I mean guys like Konecny, Boeser, Terry, etc.

Again, I'm fine with the first line, although they could even try to play Benson. Zucker could play with Cozens or even McLeod again. The main thing is that the young players are surrounded by vets. I'm fine with the third line if we add a good player there, but I don't like the second line. I think we lack that good top 6 forward, maybe it wouldn't even be a flashy player or a very expensive one, maybe even someone like Bjorkstrand would fit, I think there are options.
 
HaNotsri said:
Rochester's success is built on our draft picks being nhl-tweeners though...
Click to expand...

Is it though? They are getting a shocking amount of depth scoring down there (13 guys with at least 6 goals) without a single player at a point/game. Third in 5-on-5 scoring in part because they are getting juice out over every line is big, same with being good at 5-on-5 in GA (10th best) and that gives them the third best goal differential at 5-on-5. They are a team and get contributions from everywhere.
 
Chainshot said:
Is it though? They are getting a shocking amount of depth scoring down there (13 guys with at least 6 goals) without a single player at a point/game. Third in 5-on-5 scoring in part because they are getting juice out over every line is big, same with being good at 5-on-5 in GA (10th best) and that gives them the third best goal differential at 5-on-5. They are a team and get contributions from everywhere.
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It’s easy to make your AHL team good, if you put enough money into it, as others have pointed out over the years. And there is zero correlation between a good AHL team and a good parent team.

That said, Leone and Prospal seem like excellent coaches. Probably better than Lindy and Apprt imo, though obviously with only a tiny fraction of the experience.
 
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Chainshot said:
Is it though? They are getting a shocking amount of depth scoring down there (13 guys with at least 6 goals) without a single player at a point/game. Third in 5-on-5 scoring in part because they are getting juice out over every line is big, same with being good at 5-on-5 in GA (10th best) and that gives them the third best goal differential at 5-on-5. They are a team and get contributions from everywhere.
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Hey, I'm trying to be as negative as I can here. Not much gets said about Rochester here on Sweden but I Pilut spoke warmly about his time there (before Karmanos time but things seem to have been working well there over time)

Hopefully Karmanos can trade for some of the gems he's seen in the ahl at least.
 
HaNotsri said:
Hey, I'm trying to be as negative as I can here. Not much gets said about Rochester here on Sweden but I Pilut spoke warmly about his time there (before Karmanos time but things seem to have been working well there over time)

Hopefully Karmanos can trade for some of the gems he's seen in the ahl at least.
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Larry Pilut, the only defenseman ever to make Risto a net positive while in Buffalo. He must've been bitten by a radioactive mosquito or something. :laugh:

Too bad it wore off...

The new draftees haven't really started to take over but they're contributing. We'll see how it works out. Helenius has been very good, Ostlund is starting to heat up.
 
Chainshot said:
Larry Pilut, the only defenseman ever to make Risto a net positive while in Buffalo. He must've been bitten by a radioactive mosquito or something. :laugh:

Too bad it wore off...

The new draftees haven't really started to take over but they're contributing. We'll see how it works out. Helenius has been very good, Ostlund is starting to heat up.
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I've been happy about all our draft picks really except for Quinn and Rosén.

Östlund will need a lot of time. I'm still expecting Helenius to race past the others towards the end of the season.
 
Inside you are two wolves.

1 - Lots of trades, executed by Adams
2 - No trades, Adams fired and replaced

Which scenario do you prefer? I feel like we're all sick of the majority of this roster, but do you trust the man in charge to do the right thing?
 
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I’m starting to question the foundation of hockey analytics and its reliance on the 5v5 scenario as the purest environment in which to assess a player. I’m weighing 5v5/ES numbers less and less these days, relative to how it’s typical used, in light of what I’ve learned watching Buffalo the last few years.

I’m not a big analytics guy, so maybe im just talking nonsense but…I just think focusing on ES stats as heavily as we do leaves a lot of insight on the table.
 
slip said:
Rather, this collection of players, under this coach, under this moron GM and owner have produced garbage results, resulting is bad numbers and charts.

Pluck almost any guy off this roster and put him on a good team and he will thrive -- sans Jeff Skinner, who will always suck anywhere, anytime. I still got about a dozen examples that prove this.

The garbage numbers are an effect of bad teams, but good teams are not the sum total of players with good charts.
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Of course they would. They go to teams that are older, more experienced, more talented and have established leadership groups. Having better coaches is just the icing on the cake.

Successful teams also aren’t usually trying to accomplish things with a ton of young/unproven talent in the lineup. All of whom are trying to figure it out at the same time and frequently playing together. Not exactly a recipe for consistent/effective play.

A great example of this is Cozens, he’s played with at least 1, if not both, of his linemates younger than him the last couple seasons. That would normally not be a great idea or even the easiest thing to do with someone who was 21-23yrs old in that stretch. But thats the roster we’ve had.
 
Fjordy said:
I think you have a pretty risky plan. Greenway is a vet, ok, Benson is a young guy, Cozens is still young and inconsistent to me. But even Greenway is not a legit top 6 forward and has always been a good third liner. I mean, we literally played with Benson - Cozens - Quinn in the top 6 this season, then Quinn got taken away from Cozens and he did better. Thompson has bad numbers with Cozens on the line. I don't want to say Dylan is a black hole, but he is very inconsistent and maybe not a very smart player, that's what it looks like. McLeod's line is fine if it's a vet added or just a good mature player. But I don't like our second line, it's very risky.

First of all, he didn't play all the time, yes, he had such games, but how are you going to make Cozens the second Cirelli? Who should do it? Ruff doesn't seem like he's going to do it. Also, Cirelli had experienced and good partners and a good team. If you want Cozens to play center, surround him with good and probably experienced partners, add a legit top 6 forward, think carefully about who will play on his second wing. When I say legit top 6 forward, I mean guys like Konecny, Boeser, Terry, etc.

Again, I'm fine with the first line, although they could even try to play Benson. Zucker could play with Cozens or even McLeod again. The main thing is that the young players are surrounded by vets. I'm fine with the third line if we add a good player there, but I don't like the second line. I think we lack that good top 6 forward, maybe it wouldn't even be a flashy player or a very expensive one, maybe even someone like Bjorkstrand would fit, I think there are options.
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You’re getting way too hung up on top 6 and bottom 6. Plenty of non top line players are in the “top 6” because of fit and chemistry.

When Granato focused Cozens on defense and match ups against top centers like McDavid and Matthews two years ago, he excelled.
 
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