Prospect Info: The 2024 - 2025 Prospect Thread: Part 2: WE ARE SO F***ING BACK

[Vector]

Consensus is that this prospect pool is mid. With most underrating EP25. Wheeler's 21st rank doesn't include Mancini and the guy is all about flash. Mancini is probably the 5th ranked prospect on the Rangers.

If you’re just looking at Wheeler, I checked last night and he didn’t have Mancini ranked at all for the Rangers. So he wouldn’t move the needle for the Canucks in his eyes.

Wheelers rankings are only good as a compilation of notable prospects for each team. He still misses quite a bit too.

Personally, I’m a big Dave Hall fan. He’s also technically a coworker now but even before then I trusted his opinions.

The Canucks prospect pool isn’t amazing but if they can get 3 NHL defencemen out of the 5 they have tracking well, that’s a damn good haul and better than most in the league. What’s impressive is that the pool was left completely barren and it’s climbed out of the muck with 2 first round picks and no seconds.

 

[ManVanFan]

When the team had Hughes and EP1 in their prospect pool, it was probably a top 3 pool in the entire league. This is an entirely unrealistic expectation and I'm not sure there's a single team that has 2 prospects like 2018 Hughes/Pettersson right now.

And again, you're moving the goalposts. Nobody said that this is an elite group of prospects, but it's clearly outside of the bottom 10 and is absolutely fine for a team that finished 6th in the NHL last year. There might be 10 teams that have players like Lekkerimaki/Willander/EP2, but they've all likely finished far lower than us in the standings in the past few years.

Jim Benning being stupid is why we have overpaid for bottom 6 players in the past. None of the Blueger/Suter/O'Connor/Sherwood/Joshua acquisitions have been overpayments. Mikheyev was an overpayment, but it's clear that they saw him as a top 6 player and also never got to see him completely healthy. At most Heinen was an overpayment by a few hundred thousand.

99% of the prospects people are upset about missing on are going to be waiver wire guys as well.

Why do we specifically need "hits" through the draft? If we have good player development and pro-scouting, it doesn't really matter how many 4th rounders we have and how deep our prospect pool is anyways. They'll obviously eventually need to make more good picks at some point in the future, but that can be said about any team.

I moved the goal posts? You are talking into trading and free agent signings and everything else.

 

[Vector]

Who exactly is underrating him? Analysts or Canucks fans? The only thing I've heard since he was drafted was that he is likely to be a 3rd pairing defender and that's continued from what I've heard through the years from analysts.

Many analysts had him as an organizational depth defender with maybe 7/8 upside. He’s been reevaluated with a 3rd pairing ceiling but that wasn’t taking into account his rapid adjustment to North America and development curve this season.

 

[ManVanFan]

If you’re just looking at Wheeler, I checked last night and he didn’t have Mancini ranked at all for the Rangers. So he wouldn’t move the needle for the Canucks in his eyes.

Wheelers rankings are only good as a compilation of notable prospects for each team. He still misses quite a bit too.

Personally, I’m a big Dave Hall fan. He’s also technically a coworker now but even before then I trusted his opinions.

The Canucks prospect pool isn’t amazing but if they can get 3 NHL defencemen out of the 5 they have tracking well, that’s a damn good haul and better than most in the league. What’s impressive is that the pool was left completely barren and it’s climbed out of the muck with 2 first round picks and no seconds.

Throwing out the love to fellow co-worker. Lol jk. I like Dave too, he's very reasonable and I think he listens to what others have to say and that's important because you aren't always getting his super personal bias that some others have. I'm two decades on hockey boards and the takes I've heard over the years are hilarious to say the least. There's the haters, the lovers, the love for skills or the love of body checking. The guys that think Patrice Bergeron's grow on trees and the guys who think defencemen should never need to score just whack people over the backs in front of their nets. You are either a top 6 forward or AHL worthy nothing in between guys, love them always made me wonder if they knew there were 3 other forward lines per team. Lol.

 

[ManVanFan]

Many analysts had him as an organizational depth defender with maybe 7/8 upside. He’s been reevaluated with a 3rd pairing ceiling but that wasn’t taking into account his rapid adjustment to North America and development curve this season.

From what I heard many talked 3rd pair ceiling since he started. Not everybody hits their ceiling. He had 98 games vs Men before he came over between the top 2 leagues in Sweden. An NHL ready body. I'm not really surprised at all by his transition. Did I expect him to get NHL games this year, probably not. Is he underrated to move the needle of the farm system, not nearly enough.

 

[RobsonStreet]

Consensus is that this prospect pool is mid. With most underrating EP25. Wheeler's 21st rank doesn't include Mancini and the guy is all about flash. Mancini is probably the 5th ranked prospect on the Rangers.

The process has been okay in way we haven’t seen in Vancouver for a long time: the team hasn’t outright blown a 1st round pick and seems to have found 1-4 NHL defensemen outside the first round from the last three drafts (Pettersson, Kudryavtsev, Brzustewictz, Mynio). That’s a decent level of success for a team that isn’t terrible.

 

[credulous]

i don't think the canucks pool is terrible but the cost of having 3-5 dmen with nhl upside is that there's basically nothing coming in terms of forwards and goalies except for lekkerimaki and even he has some pretty big question marks

the best case scenario is lekkerimaki is a good top 6 forward and mueller, raty and sasson are useful nhl depth. i don't think any of their goalies are relevant

 

[strattonius]

i don't think the canucks pool is terrible but the cost of having 3-5 dmen with nhl upside is that there's basically nothing coming in terms of forwards and goalies except for lekkerimaki and even he has some pretty big question marks

the best case scenario is lekkerimaki is a good top 6 forward and mueller, raty and sasson are useful nhl depth. i don't think any of their goalies are relevant

Yup.

Something like
Defense A
Forwards C
Goalies C

We are around 14th-18th is my guess.

 

[credulous]

Yup.

Something like
Defense A
Forwards C
Goalies C

We are around 14th-18th is my guess.

i dunno if i'd give the defense an A. the problem is none of them are going to be stars

the canucks have quantity on defense but not enough quality. even willander at his absolute best case is like jonas brodin or jared spurgeon. there's a lot of d prospects out there with quinn hughes (cole hutson, asp, buium, parekh) or chris pronger (levshyunov, lamoureux, rinzel, silayev) upside. they're obviously not certain to hit that but those are the kind of prospects that really elevate your team. see for example quinn hughes. getting a 4/5 defender is great but you can also just like trade a 2nd to fill that spot so it's not as impactful

 

[arttk]

Canucks had no first rounder or second rounder in 2020; no first rounder in 2021; no second rounder in 2022; no second rounder in 2023; and of course no first or second rounder in 2024.

I guess there were some logical reasons for surrendering these picks at the time. And I suppose the Canucks wouldn't have 'hit' on all of them.

But you can't help but wonder how much better their prospect pipeline would be if they'd kept more of those high picks.

Actually there isn’t really any good reason for Benning trading away 1st rounders.
f*** Benning

 

[nowhereman]

i dunno if i'd give the defense an A. the problem is none of them are going to be stars

the canucks have quantity on defense but not enough quality. even willander at his absolute best case is like jonas brodin or jared spurgeon. there's a lot of d prospects out there with quinn hughes (cole hutson, asp, buium, parekh) or chris pronger (levshyunov, lamoureux, rinzel, silayev) upside. they're obviously not certain to hit that but those are the kind of prospects that really elevate your team. see for example quinn hughes. getting a 4/5 defender is great but you can also just like trade a 2nd to fill that spot so it's not as impactful

None of those players have Hughes or Pronger upside. And Willander is a top 15 prospect.

 

[WTG]

If you’re just looking at Wheeler, I checked last night and he didn’t have Mancini ranked at all for the Rangers. So he wouldn’t move the needle for the Canucks in his eyes.

Wheelers rankings are only good as a compilation of notable prospects for each team. He still misses quite a bit too.

Personally, I’m a big Dave Hall fan. He’s also technically a coworker now but even before then I trusted his opinions.

The Canucks prospect pool isn’t amazing but if they can get 3 NHL defencemen out of the 5 they have tracking well, that’s a damn good haul and better than most in the league. What’s impressive is that the pool was left completely barren and it’s climbed out of the muck with 2 first round picks and no seconds.

I have massive respect for anyone who watches players play instead of just regurgitating other people's opinions or stat watches. Sometimes, I hear analysts, and you can just tell that they heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy. Dave Hall is fantastic when it comes to covering the prospects.

It's why Vancouver has such a bad rep and that the fans are "toxic," when in reality, everyone just regurgitates that narrative since fans were fed up with management. How often did we hear that Green was a good coach from people out east who never stayed up to watch the team, or that fans are way too hard on Benning?

 

[Jerry the great]

i dunno if i'd give the defense an A. the problem is none of them are going to be stars

the canucks have quantity on defense but not enough quality. even willander at his absolute best case is like jonas brodin or jared spurgeon. there's a lot of d prospects out there with quinn hughes (cole hutson, asp, buium, parekh) or chris pronger (levshyunov, lamoureux, rinzel, silayev) upside. they're obviously not certain to hit that but those are the kind of prospects that really elevate your team. see for example quinn hughes. getting a 4/5 defender is great but you can also just like trade a 2nd to fill that spot so it's not as impactful

Except there were plenty of doubters Quinn Hughes would be more than a PP specialist with a below average shot in need of sheltering at the NHL level.

Not many were calling for Brock Faber to be a minute leading all situations defender for the Wild in his first pro season and anyone suggesting he would be after his 2nd year at Minny would have been laughed at.

Development isn't linear and some guys on your list are going to struggle to adjust to the pro game while others with supposedly limited upside will not, and people are going to wonder where they came from.

Guys with a high hockey IQ are going to excel at the NHL level because they can adapt to and thrive in a more structured system vs the chaos in junior/college and the AHL. Guys lauded for their creativity and puck skills will buckle under the physicality of the NHL.

How many people had Kudryavtsev looking better this year than Jiricek who was taken 202 picks earlier in the 2022 draft and has 166 pro games under his belt?

We'll see what kind of upside our class of 22/23 have in time, but they're all tracking very well right now.

 

[Diversification]

i dunno if i'd give the defense an A. the problem is none of them are going to be stars

the canucks have quantity on defense but not enough quality. even willander at his absolute best case is like jonas brodin or jared spurgeon. there's a lot of d prospects out there with quinn hughes (cole hutson, asp, buium, parekh) or chris pronger (levshyunov, lamoureux, rinzel, silayev) upside. they're obviously not certain to hit that but those are the kind of prospects that really elevate your team. see for example quinn hughes. getting a 4/5 defender is great but you can also just like trade a 2nd to fill that spot so it's not as impactful

I'm not sure it's helpful to think of your prospect system in relation to everyone else in the league because each team's needs are different because of their timeline and roster makeup. Rather, how does our prospect system meet our current and future needs?

For our particular team, Willander and EP2 are Godsends. Guys that can eat NHL minutes on ELCs are exactly what we need, especially if a guy like Willander can work his way up to the 2nd pairing in the next year or so.

We also really need Lekkerimaki to hit as Boeser ages out. With the way we are structured capwise, we will need Lekk sooner rather than later as a top 6 winger option.

Guys like Raty, Sasson, Aman and Karlsson are nice to have, but their surplus value is going to be limited. Raty, perhaps less so because of faceoff utility on both sides of the ice; it would be amazing if he can become an effective PKer.

As for the rest, if one of Mynio, Kud or Mancini hits, great. If not that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Where our prospect pipeline fails us will need to be filled in with free agent signings and trades. Needs include, top 6 C (RH preferred, faceoff proficiency preferred), top 6 W (speed and some finishing ability).

Goalies, who knows? Will Demko regain his form while staying healthy? Is Lankinen a flash in the pan? Is the NHL moving towards a 1a/1b model because of the wear and tear of the RVH modern style?

 

[Wisp]

I'm not sure it's helpful to think of your prospect system in relation to everyone else in the league because each team's needs are different because of their timeline and roster makeup. Rather, how does our prospect system meet our current and future needs?

A neat way of thinking about things and helps verbalize why I'm so loath to part with any of our prospects right now because I think they're so important to the Canucks program. These defensemen coming up are too useful for a team that's struggled with defensemen depth, Canucks are going to need Lekkerimaki as a top 6 forward.

 

[Diversification]

A neat way of thinking about things and helps verbalize why I'm so loath to part with any of our prospects right now because I think they're so important to the Canucks program. These defensemen coming up are too useful for a team that's struggled with defensemen depth, Canucks are going to need Lekkerimaki as a top 6 forward.

We can probably do okay if we lose one of Kud, Mynio or Mancini. Hogs and Raty are also tradeable.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Acquire picks at the TDL when their value is the lowest.

Trade them at the Draft when they are their highest.

Forwards, especially at C, needs a major boost.

 

[credulous]

I'm not sure it's helpful to think of your prospect system in relation to everyone else in the league because each team's needs are different because of their timeline and roster makeup. Rather, how does our prospect system meet our current and future needs?

For our particular team, Willander and EP2 are Godsends. Guys that can eat NHL minutes on ELCs are exactly what we need, especially if a guy like Willander can work his way up to the 2nd pairing in the next year or so.

i don't think i agree with this take although i do understand where you are coming from. if you follow this logic through the canucks have arguably the worst prospect pool in the league. other than lekkerimaki none of their prospects really fill any critical holes

they have hughes, hronek, (marcus) pettersson and myers locked up for the forseeable future and they have adequate depth to supplement it. having pettersson or willander over soucy or juulsen is nice but it's not really critical to the team's success. their biggest needs are play driving wingers and centers and they have nothing coming. they need lekkerimaki, raty and someone like sasson to vastly exceed expectations in a hurry to fill those gaps

if you look at it from just a pure asset pov then the canucks would be foolish to want willander over someone like levshyunov or asp. those players might be redundant with quinn hughes in place but they inarguably have far greater value as trade chips

 

[alternate]

We can probably do okay if we lose one of Kud, Mynio or Mancini. Hogs and Raty are also tradeable.

I'd put Lekkerimaki in that category as well, as long as it's to acquire a cost controlled top 6 forward.

Sometimes on this site, this thread, and just in general, fans conflate the end goal with the process. Goal isn't to win the Prospect Cup. Goal is to develop a winning NHL roster. Prospects are one element of that, but if trading a 1st for (for example) JT Miller makes you a much better team but hurts your prospect depth, that's a win not a loss.

 

[Diversification]

i don't think i agree with this take although i do understand where you are coming from. if you follow this logic through the canucks have arguably the worst prospect pool in the league. other than lekkerimaki none of their prospects really fill any critical holes

they have hughes, hronek, (marcus) pettersson and myers locked up for the forseeable future and they have adequate depth to supplement it. having pettersson or willander over soucy or juulsen is nice but it's not really critical to the team's success. their biggest needs are play driving wingers and centers and they have nothing coming. they need lekkerimaki, raty and someone like sasson to vastly exceed expectations in a hurry to fill those gaps

if you look at it from just a pure asset pov then the canucks would be foolish to want willander over someone like levshyunov or asp. those players might be redundant with quinn hughes in place but they inarguably have far greater value as trade chips

I think the idea with Willander is that he will eventually supplant Myers, who has 2 years left on his contract. So, perhaps Myers slides down to the 3rd pairing in the 3rd year of his deal.

As for the idea that we would be better off with ASP than Willander, I'm not so sure. For one, Willander might end up as Hughes' long term partner in the Devon Toews mold. Second, prospect value is contextual and often you'll get less for them than what you think you should in the event that you have to move them. Case in point: Byram being moved by the Avs for Mittlestadt. In that way, it's better that you have what you can actually use rather than have to depend on flipping the asset in hopes of addressing another need.

 

[Soups On]

I'd put Lekkerimaki in that category as well, as long as it's to acquire a cost controlled top 6 forward.

Sometimes on this site, this thread, and just in general, fans conflate the end goal with the process. Goal isn't to win the Prospect Cup. Goal is to develop a winning NHL roster. Prospects are one element of that, but if trading a 1st for (for example) JT Miller makes you a much better team but hurts your prospect depth, that's a win not a loss.

Agreed. Here the mentality is who can build the best prospect pool and it's funny - if the Rangers trade for Miller a few years ago at 50% retention like what might have been available, they probably win the cup. But they've been hell bent on not trading Braden god damn Schneider lmao

With that said - the Canucks should be very hesitant to tease Lek. Having him on an ELC playing in the top 6 as early as next year, which is the appropriate gamble, is insane value. This year I doubt the team can go far with Petey playing like a mid tier 2C so it really would be a bad idea to throw Lek into a deal for a top line winger. Can only really trade him in a package for ~25 year old first liner, not many of those guys available though.

 

[wetcoast]

None of those players have Hughes or Pronger upside. And Willander is a top 15 prospect.

You are right they don't but also to give our defensive prospects an A rating, that's probably not true either.

 

[VanJack]

Actually there isn’t really any good reason for Benning trading away 1st rounders.
f*** Benning

Actually, you can't really argue with trading their first round pick in 2020 (which turned out to be 20th overall) for J.T. Miller.

The one that really hurts though is giving up a top-10 pick in 2021 (Dylan Guenther); and their second round pick to bring OEL to Vancouver.

 

[John Belushi]

Actually, you can't really argue with trading their first round pick in 2020 (which turned out to be 20th overall) for J.T. Miller.

The one that really hurts though is giving up a top-10 pick in 2021 (Dylan Guenther); and their second round pick to bring OEL to Vancouver.

No, that trade in particular paid off in spades - however you could ask the question on whether it was the right move for the direction of the team at the time. Either way, it (sort of) worked out.


As for picks in rounds 1-5 traded away during Benning's tenure (almost exclusively as a non playoff team) :

2014 2nd
2015 2nd
2016 2nd
2016 2nd
2016 3rd
2016 4th
2016 5th
2017 5th
2018 4th
2019 3rd
2020 1st
2020 2nd
2021 1st
2021 3rd
2021 4th
2021 5th
2022 2nd
2022 3rd

Two 1sts, six 2nds and four 3rds over his tenure - while acquiring very little for picks in return and absolutely squandering the development of the few prospects in possession.

Its astounding looking back upon it. Allvin and Rutherford haven't batted 100% but at least you can fathom the process and strategy behind their deals.

Benning gave up a 4th and a 5th for Madison freakin' Bowey for Christ's sake!

Looking back, the 2016 offseason may be the worst managed season for a team in pro sports. Acquiring Gudbranson, Sutter and Louie Eriksson while giving up an absolute boatload of picks.

That said, the 2020/21 offseasons aren't far behind...

What a dark era to reminisce about.

 

[bandwagonesque]

i dunno if i'd give the defense an A. the problem is none of them are going to be stars

I don't think a defense needs more than 1-2 stars. I would probably take a two Quinn Hughes and 4 or 5 Chris Tanevs over any defense that has ever actually existed.