Teams' tragic flaws

[joe_shannon_1983*]

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/International/2006/02/20/1452189-sun.html

Here is another guy that agrees with me.
"Gretzky hockey gamble appears to be losing big"

I haven't totally disagreed with the things that you have been saying in this thread. Not totally agreeing with them, but not totally disagree with them either.

However, you posted a link to an article written by Steve Simmons. Steve Simmons is one of the biggest clowns in the hockey media right now.

 

[Souffle]

It's hard to say. If Canada wins gold, Gretzky's a genius. I haven't been impressed so far. The guys who are there don't really seem to be concerned. Maybe they're just waiting for the elimination games, but then again maybe they're just too comfy.

 

[Ironchef Chris Wok*]

I'm so sick of the Ryan Smyth and Shane Doan hate.

1) Two "checking" forwards is not the reason for the lack of offense.

2) The two guys that ARE skating, chasing, digging, and hitting are NOT the reasons we're losing.

Our tragic flaw? Reliance on "skillz"

Dump Chase Dig Repeat. Not rocket science

 

[Showerhead]

I'll stay away from debating who is and isn't on this team as much as possible here (I hate armchair GM-ing) but there is one thing I wanted to add.

When Gretzky guaranteed Yzerman and Lemieux those spots, he did it with the provision that they could step down. Do you not find anything to be proud of in this show of faith? He knew there was a chance that those guys would be hurting or not playing well but he showed faith in them as world class human beings to be able to make the right call with all personal aspirations aside. He was then justified when each player did make the right call (as you have pointed out and I agree, those two guys should not be on the roster this year and I'm glad they aren't).

It just seems like he made the right call from a human standpoint here and received vindication when Lemieux and Yzerman made the same correct call from a hockey standpoint.

 

[The Beav]

Guess what? Even if Team Canada sucks out and gets eliminated in the QF, you can't take away Gretz accomplishments on the ice. His reputation will not be tarnished because he is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, hockey players of all time. Look the Pens are struggling, does that mean that Mario was a bad player because a team he pulled from the brink of bankruptcy and repaid all debts (when he didn't have to) is at the bottom of the league? Managing an olympic team and being a great hockey player are two totally different worlds and no one is taking away Gretz' on the ice performance with some cockamamie junk about an olympic tournament that has more talent than ever. Gretz is the Great One and always will be, medal or no for Team Canada in 06

 

[Orpik#44]

As a finn I'd say our main problem is that only our first line Lehtinen-Koivu-Selänne is able to produce some offence. Until now they've been unstoppable but having only one line able to score is rarely enough to win a tournament.

We need the Jokinen line to start scoring.

 

[Raimo Sillanpää]

Sure, but what else? Their experience in big games compared to Canada and the Czechs is negligible.

When was the last time the Czechs were in a serious final. Not world championships but serious. Nagano 1998?

If you insist on throwing in world championships finals, then the Finns are just as experienced having been there multiple times at the end of the nineties.
Plus Nagano was 8 years ago, the World Cup final was less than 2 years ago.

Canada does have more "final" experience, last Olympics + World Cup, but thats 1 more tournament. Is it really *that* much more?

But on no account can their big game experience compared to the Czechs be negligible.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Sure, but what else? Their experience in big games compared to Canada and the Czechs is negligible.

It is? This core of players Finland has, has been competing on international level for over 10 years. They have 1 world championship, several world championship medals, olympic bronze, world cup 2nd place, quarterfinals in salt lake... Yeah Canada and Czech have had more notable success during that time, nobody else. So this experience thing wont fly.

Yeah, our goalie does not have that much experience on big international games, but does Lundqvist, Gerber, DiPietro (esche?), Budaj, Nabokov, Luongo? Vokoun was the best goalie in last world championships and Brodeur has won enough to be very experienced. I'd also count Hnilicka experienced in big games.

If you want to find a tragic flaw, or a flaw in team Finland, its the few defensemen who play in europe. Nummelin and A.J Niemi. They are relatively small and not completely used to NHL players so they are in trouble. Nummelin has far exceeded my expectations in these games, must be because all the clutching and grabbing is gone, he gets to use his tools and does well. Also the lack of second line grinder somehow makes them a bit dull....Tuomo Ruutu left a huge hole in that line, and J.Jokinen's style just does not create more space, so O.Jokinen has to do the grinding as well, which keeps him from finding scoring chances.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Finland plays as a Teemu and haven't Lehtinen many goals, and that's no Jokinen.

 

[MeN_Ace2]

Finland plays as a Teemu and haven't Lehtinen many goals, and that's no Jokinen.

Sorry, hard to comprehend what your really saying?

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Here's what I think the weakness of the Quarterfinal teams

Canada-Overconfident, slow defense and Bryan McCabe
Finland- Not alot of depth in all areas
Sweden- Not overwelming, very good, but not great
Russia- Goaltending and some defensive weaknesses
Swizterland- Not enough talent
Czech- Goaltending (atleast last night) and mental block
Slovakia- Goaltending and slight defensive weaknesses
USA- Goaltending, not great defense, and no heart (sorry guys like Tkachuk and Modano out weigh Weight and Chelios)

 

[mytor4*]

I haven't totally disagreed with the things that you have been saying in this thread. Not totally agreeing with them, but not totally disagree with them either.

However, you posted a link to an article written by Steve Simmons. Steve Simmons is one of the biggest clowns in the hockey media right now.

yes and now we have two clowns now-simmons and w&*lthman+g%r

 

[Freudian]

Here's what I think the weakness of the Quarterfinal teams

Canada-Overconfident, slow defense and Bryan McCabe
Finland- Not alot of depth in all areas
Sweden- Not overwelming, very good, but not great
Russia- Goaltending and some defensive weaknesses
Swizterland- Not enough talent
Czech- Goaltending (atleast last night) and mental block
Slovakia- Goaltending and slight defensive weaknesses
USA- Goaltending, not great defense, and no heart (sorry guys like Tkachuk and Modano out weigh Weight and Chelios)

Disagree with the US. I think their goaltending has been pretty good (especially DiPietro who I suspect will get the start today) as has their defense. Their big weakness is that they haven't been able to convert on the chances they create. They have been collectively snakebitten. At least until the last period last night, but we don't really know how hard the russians played last night. They are my darkhorse for an upset here. I saw some fire in the eyes of the veterans last night.

 

[Macman]

When was the last time the Czechs were in a serious final. Not world championships but serious. Nagano 1998?

I think you have to look at world juniors as well. It's a serious championship and the Czechs, Canadians and Russians all have players with gold medal experience. I'm not saying the Finns and Slovaks can't win the Olympics, but if we're looking for potential tragic flaws, a lack of experience winning big games could be one.

 

[Raimo Sillanpää]

I think you have to look at world juniors as well. It's a serious championship and the Czechs, Canadians and Russians all have players with gold medal experience. I'm not saying the Finns and Slovaks can't win the Olympics, but if we're looking for potential tragic flaws, a lack of experience winning big games could be one.

World Juniors?

I'm sure a 40 year old Hasek considers that his biggest big game experience ever.



What do you think was bigger for Olli Jokinen, winning the WJC gold in 99 in Helsinki, or winning the SM-Liiga gold in 99 in Helsinki?

I'm going to need a lot more substantiation as to how exactly a WJC championships final is a big game for a 30+ year old star. Like a Jagr, Koivu, Selänne, Hasek etc etc.

 

[Random Oracle]

I think you have to look at world juniors as well. It's a serious championship and the Czechs, Canadians and Russians all have players with gold medal experience.

Finns have players that have won the gold in the juniors, don't we?

 

[Macman]

World Juniors?

I'm sure a 40 year old Hasek considers that his biggest big game experience ever.

No, but we're not talking about the Czechs lack of experience, are we?

 

[Raimo Sillanpää]

No, but we're not talking about the Czechs lack of experience, are we?

So like I said.

How does a possible tournament "big game" from like 12-15 years ago affect a hockey player today?

 

[Macman]

So like I said.

How does a possible tournament "big game" from like 12-15 years ago affect a hockey player today?

Who's talking about 12 to 15 years ago and one tournament? Every player on Canada except maybe Nash and Bertuzzi have won recent gold medals at either the Olympics, world championships, World Cup or world juniors and in most cases multiple variations of all four. The Czechs have several players in a fairly similar situation. If you think the Finns and Slovaks have as much experience playing in big games, or it's not a factor at all, fine by me.

 

[Raimo Sillanpää]

Who's talking about 12 to 15 years ago and one tournament? Every player on Canada except maybe Nash and Bertuzzi have won recent gold medals at either the Olympics, world championships, World Cup or world juniors and in most cases multiple variations of all four. The Czechs have several players in a fairly similar situation. If you think the Finns and Slovaks have as much experience playing in big games, or it's not a factor at all, fine by me.

Wait, don't try to run away from your arguement by dodging it if you can't back it up.

Jagr is 34 years old. He competed in the WJC championships in the late 80's.. which would be atleast 14-15 years ago.
He last went deep in the playoffs in 00-01, which was 5 years ago.

Koivu is 32 years old. so his WJC experience is from 12 years ago. Just as negligible is it not? 01-02 and 03-04 Montreal had lenghty playoff series. Those are surely bigger games than a WJC from 1988? He has SM-Liiga gold and WC gold, and WC silver too.



I fail to see the significance of a 1988 final "big game" in terms of your current big game "experience".

 

[Macman]

Wait, don't try to run away from your arguement by dodging it if you can't back it up.

I have backed it up, but I suspect whatever I say is never going to be good enough. Once again, if you think the players on Finland or Slovakia have as much experience winning internationally as the Canadians or Czechs, the numbers certainly don't support it. Whether it matters remains to be seen. I only suggested a lack of experience as a possible tragic flaw. That's what this thread is about. You don't have to agree. Enjoy the rest of the tournament.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

The big weakness for the U.S. (at least up until the Russia game) has been scoring punch. A ton of chances but no finish (I MEAN YOU JASON BLAKE!!!!). Overall, a solid work ethic but some spotty consistency. I hope we can bring it today!

 

[TK79]

Sure, but what else? Their experience in big games compared to Canada and the Czechs is negligible.

Bronze in Nagano..

 

[Wondercarrot]

I believe his legacy will be tarnished even further after he failed to do what was best for the country.

not that i disagree with some of what you've said however i do take exception to this.

in what fashion has his legacy ever been tarnished? this would be his first failure, if it comes to pass.