Series Talk: Tax implications

[mydnyte]

The NHL really needs to arts the tax advantages some teams have with a fixed cap.
I always knew the no/low tax states have a huge advantage, but, I let AI spell it out directly for the Leafs vs Panthers in this years playoffs (exclusively)
We are looking at an advantage of ~45 million... imagine our depth with that much extra $$. We would have been able y to fit Marchand and Jones with full cap hits with ease and upgrade every depth player as well. So, we are a little hard on our guys since the ice is tilled WAY to the south!!

Accounting for the tax discrepancy, the Florida Panthers’ effective cap hit in Toronto’s tax environment was ~$132.9M, or $44.9M over the $88M cap, compared to the Leafs’

 

[Rare Jewel]

There's nothing you can do.

And the Leafs have used tricks to get around it anyway, like the signing bonus thing, that Dubas in particular utterly flubbed.

 

[IPS]

So if this tax thing really does make it out to be as grim as it really is, why are any of us bothering? Why would any of us bother watching or being a fan when rival teams can sign players for ~20% less than Toronto because of an inherent "nothing you can do about it" type of advantage that is clearly insurmountable with the parity in today's league?

 

[NVious]

How much taxes are the players actually paying though lmao, see Tavares, he doesn't even give effort on his tax payments rofl.

 

[TonsofPuppies]

The NHL really needs to arts the tax advantages some teams have with a fixed cap.
I always knew the no/low tax states have a huge advantage, but, I let AI spell it out directly for the Leafs vs Panthers in this years playoffs (exclusively)
We are looking at an advantage of ~45 million... imagine our depth with that much extra $$. We would have been able y to fit Marchand and Jones with full cap hits with ease and upgrade every depth player as well. So, we are a little hard on our guys since the ice is tilled WAY to the south!!

Accounting for the tax discrepancy, the Florida Panthers’ effective cap hit in Toronto’s tax environment was ~$132.9M, or $44.9M over the $88M cap, compared to the Leafs’

As long as it's an advantage that favours Gary's sunbelt teams, it's not something they're going to change. lol

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

It's just not fair!

 

[Menzinger]

It's been brought up at during previous cba negotiations. The biggest obstacle is it makes trying to figure out cap way too complicated, especially mid season when teams are trying to come up with quick trades like during the tdl. And then you have players who are dual citizens and may have very complicated tax situations,.so how does that affect the cap?

The other problem is the Sunbelt teams can offer way better weather + zero media or fan pressure too which can't ever be offset

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

No tax on overtime!

 

[sxvnert]

If the tax advantage were in canadian teams favour, it would be fixed within minutes. Salary/Tax harmonization throughout the league would easily fix it. The league knows exactly what each yearly state tax and what each player can potentially take home.

 

[JKG33]

Taxes are just the tip of the ice berg that is.. Canada is a undesirable place for millionaire men aged 18-40. Taxes, weather, politics, media, people.

Fans can and will blame the tax boogeyman but the reality is the canadian 7 teams being unfairly allowed to spend more won't magically bump them ahead of desirable markets in Florida, Nevada, Texas, Tennessee, Carolina, etc.

 

[mydnyte]

I extrapolated the data to all teams in the playoffs

Team Tax-Adjusted Cap Hit Tax-Adjusted Overage
Florida Panthers $132,908,127 $44,908,127
Tampa Bay Lightning $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Dallas Stars $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Nashville Predators $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Vegas Golden Knights $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Colorado Avalanche $110,700,000 $22,700,000
Boston Bruins $108,800,000 $20,800,000
Carolina Hurricanes $108,800,000 $20,800,000
New Jersey Devils $105,100,000 $17,100,000
Edmonton Oilers $105,902,975 $17,902,975
Washington Capitals $103,200,000 $15,200,000
New York Rangers $101,300,000 $13,300,000
New York Islanders $101,300,000 $13,300,000
Vancouver Canucks $95,700,000 $7,700,000
Winnipeg Jets $93,800,000 $5,800,000
Toronto Maple Leafs $88,000,000 $0

Sucks to be at the very bottom of this list.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

I guess we're just gonna have to not tax as much here.

 

[JaegerDice]

I think your AI response is nuts and warrants double checking. Especially since it also thinks Vancouver and the Rangers made the playoffs…?

More over, the primary problem with the Leafs wasnt a lack of depth, it was their top players getting dragged around the ice like a squeegee.

Lack of cap wasnt the issue. Spending cap on the wrong guys was the issue.

 

[mydnyte]

It's been brought up at during previous cba negotiations. The biggest obstacle is it makes trying to figure out cap way too complicated, especially mid season when teams are trying to come up with quick trades like during the tdl. And then you have players who are dual citizens and may have very complicated tax situations,.so how does that affect the cap?

The other problem is the Sunbelt teams can offer way better weather + zero media or fan pressure too which can't ever be offset

Highest tax team is the baseline and adjusted by team.
All teams playoff rosters must be cap compliant!!
Fixed and very simple.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

I extrapolated the data to all teams in the playoffs

Team Tax-Adjusted Cap Hit Tax-Adjusted Overage
Florida Panthers $132,908,127 $44,908,127
Tampa Bay Lightning $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Dallas Stars $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Nashville Predators $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Vegas Golden Knights $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Colorado Avalanche $110,700,000 $22,700,000
Boston Bruins $108,800,000 $20,800,000
Carolina Hurricanes $108,800,000 $20,800,000
New Jersey Devils $105,100,000 $17,100,000
Edmonton Oilers $105,902,975 $17,902,975
Washington Capitals $103,200,000 $15,200,000
New York Rangers $101,300,000 $13,300,000
New York Islanders $101,300,000 $13,300,000
Vancouver Canucks $95,700,000 $7,700,000
Winnipeg Jets $93,800,000 $5,800,000
Toronto Maple Leafs $88,000,000 $0

Sucks to be at the very bottom of this list.

If you look at how Dallas is set up, they're going to be very good for a long time. That's because:

1) They shrewdly signed their young kids to $8.25M instead of $12M+ contracts before they hit the UFA market.

2) They are in a more favourable position to do #1 than the Leafs are.

 

[JaegerDice]

Highest tax team is the baseline and adjusted by team.
All teams playoff rosters must be cap compliant!!
Fixed and very simple.

The NHLPA is not going to sign off on artificially limiting dollars in the system based on the whims of local governments. Nor should they.

 

[mydnyte]

If you look at how Dallas is set up, they're going to be very good for a long time. That's because:

1) They shrewdly signed their young kids to $8.25M instead of $12M+ contracts before they hit the UFA market.

2) They are in a more favourable position to do #1 than the Leafs are.

They also have a better mix of high end defence and forwards, and had great drafting.
We got too good too fast. Colorodo other than their Cup season has been just as bad in the playoffs, but they tanked after getting MacKinnon and got Makar and otjer high end pieces. We never had a drop or draft luck, so, our D is better now, but slow and easy to keep hemmed in.

 

[Menzinger]

Highest tax team is the baseline and adjusted by team.
All teams playoff rosters must be cap compliant!!
Fixed and very simple.

At minimum this probably needs to happen even if they don't formally change the main cap rules.

There has been some absurd abuse of that over the past few years

 

[mydnyte]

The NHLPA is not going to sign off on artificially limiting dollars in the system based on the whims of local governments. Nor should they.

A 'flat cap' needs to be fair and equal to all teams though, and it is not!!

 

[Rare Jewel]

I extrapolated the data to all teams in the playoffs

Team Tax-Adjusted Cap Hit Tax-Adjusted Overage
Florida Panthers $132,908,127 $44,908,127
Tampa Bay Lightning $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Dallas Stars $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Nashville Predators $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Vegas Golden Knights $119,000,000 $31,000,000
Colorado Avalanche $110,700,000 $22,700,000
Boston Bruins $108,800,000 $20,800,000
Carolina Hurricanes $108,800,000 $20,800,000
New Jersey Devils $105,100,000 $17,100,000
Edmonton Oilers $105,902,975 $17,902,975
Washington Capitals $103,200,000 $15,200,000
New York Rangers $101,300,000 $13,300,000
New York Islanders $101,300,000 $13,300,000
Vancouver Canucks $95,700,000 $7,700,000
Winnipeg Jets $93,800,000 $5,800,000
Toronto Maple Leafs $88,000,000 $0

Sucks to be at the very bottom of this list.

And we still chose to give 50% of the cap to 4 or 5 guys.

Then, they were given massive lump sum signing bonuses to offset the tax issue, only to get no benefit with term or AAV.

Double trouble, well done, Shanny and co.

 

[mydnyte]

I think your AI response is nuts and warrants double checking. Especially since it also thinks Vancouver and the Rangers made the playoffs…?

More over, the primary problem with the Leafs wasnt a lack of depth, it was their top players getting dragged around the ice like a squeegee.

Lack of cap wasnt the issue. Spending cap on the wrong guys was the issue.

It got confused because of performance bonuses. I tried to get those stripped out but it missed some.

 

[WilliamInLondon]

They also have a better mix of high end defence and forwards, and had great drafting.
We got too good too fast. Colorodo other than their Cup season has been just as bad in the playoffs, but they tanked after getting MacKinnon and got Makar and otjer high end pieces. We never had a drop or draft luck, so, our D is better now, but slow and easy to keep hemmed in.

completely agree on Dallas. Mental defects aside, on a pure talent basis, you could say that Marner/Nylander/Matthews are more talented on paper than any homegrown/young player on Dallas' side. But for that price, I'd obviously much rather have Hintz, Robertson, Johnston, Heiskanen, and Harley. It's a complete no brainer.

 

[Stephen]

completely agree on Dallas. Mental defects aside, on a pure talent basis, you could say that Marner/Nylander/Matthews are more talented on paper than any homegrown/young player on Dallas' side. But for that price, I'd obviously much rather have Hintz, Robertson, Johnston, Heiskanen, and Harley. It's a complete no brainer.

Leafs overpaid for the steep climb of 2017-2019 from first overall selection to playoffs the next year and staying the playoffs permanently. Imagine if Celebrini and friends made the playoffs this year. Team like Dallas grew more organically and slowly and didn’t have to pay that superstar premium. That superstar premium was always rooted in the McDavid Matthews 5 on 5 extrapolation. It was ludicrous but it felt like we had something very special.

 

[Stephen]

The US only has the feeling of being a better place to play on aggregate. You go to a place like Detroit, Columbus, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, St. Paul, St. Louis it’s not exactly like you have the weather of South Beach, cosmopolitanism of New York and flash of Los Angeles all rolled into one because ‘Murica.

And you know what, for all the easy living a place like Florida has, one thing I am adamant about is a championship team from there will never receive its due respect.

Don’t believe me? No one cares about Tampa’s championships. No one cares about Carolina and Anaheim. It simply matters more for the game when it’s won in traditional markets. That's why Panthers and Lightning guys come up here and ham it up like they've never given a press conference before. Cause down there the NHL is probably arena football.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The NHL really needs to arts the tax advantages some teams have with a fixed cap.
I always knew the no/low tax states have a huge advantage, but, I let AI spell it out directly for the Leafs vs Panthers in this years playoffs (exclusively)
We are looking at an advantage of ~45 million... imagine our depth with that much extra $$. We would have been able y to fit Marchand and Jones with full cap hits with ease and upgrade every depth player as well. So, we are a little hard on our guys since the ice is tilled WAY to the south!!

Accounting for the tax discrepancy, the Florida Panthers’ effective cap hit in Toronto’s tax environment was ~$132.9M, or $44.9M over the $88M cap, compared to the Leafs’

This is not even close to being accurate. How did you come up with this number?