GDT: TankTown Express: It Smells like Fried ChickenHawks

[Moose and Squirrel]

I mean the only goal Binny had a chance on was still a break away. This team defense is just f***ing aweful and something has to change. We have GOOD defensemen but the system is some absolute shit and someone needs fired for it.

yup.. I don't understand how anyone could be blaming the goalie on those.. those are ridiculous and happening WAY too often.. basically wide open goals

but.. it's trendy to blame him so...

 

[542365]

yup.. I don't understand how anyone could be blaming the goalie on those.. those are ridiculous and happening WAY too often.. basically wide open goals

but.. it's trendy to blame him so...

The guy allowed four goals on .538 xG. It’s not “trendy”, it’s true. He was dreadful. Again. The first one was not on him, the rest were absolutely stoppable. Look at the saves that Greiss and even the Hawks goalie made throughout the game. Those are saves that NHL goalies are expected to make. Goalies have to make some saves outside of the routine ones to win. Every goalie in the AHL is capable of making most of the routine stops. What separates an NHL goalie is their ability to make big stops when the team needs them. Binnington, once again, was unable to do that. Greiss saw three times as many scoring chances in his 33 minutes and only allowed 1. That’s a near league minimum backup doing that. Why can’t we expect at least that from our 6 million dollar man? Yet another season where the backup outplays Binnington(under worse circumstances and behind the same defense that apparently makes Binner’s job impossible.)

 

[TruBlu]

The guy allowed four goals on .538 xG. It’s not “trendy”, it’s true. He was dreadful. Again. The first one was not on him, the rest were absolutely stoppable. Look at the saves that Greiss and even the Hawks goalie made throughout the game. Those are saves that NHL goalies are expected to make. Goalies have to make some saves outside of the routine ones to win. Every goalie in the AHL is capable of making most of the routine stops. What separates an NHL goalie is their ability to make big stops when the team needs them. Binnington, once again, was unable to do that. Greiss saw three times as many scoring chances in his 33 minutes and only allowed 1. That’s a near league minimum backup doing that. Why can’t we expect at least that from our 6 million dollar man? Yet another season where the backup outplays Binnington(under worse circumstances and behind the same defense that apparently makes Binner’s job impossible.)

Can't like this enough. The backup is playing behind the same defense as Binny. Often times he's playing on a b2b where the team in front of him is more apt to be tired. He also gets sent in when Binny shits the bed and we are down 3 or 4 goals. You think the defense is bad now, just look at how they abandon all attempts at even trying to play defense and just start trying to swarm the net. The Domi goal was a perfect example of that. As far as I'm concerned Greiss has won the starting role until Binny proves otherwise. This also not the first time Binny has lost his starting job...or the second...

 

[PJJJP]

It's simple the hawks goalie made the great saves against us. The rookie played well against us and without him it might have been a different story

 

[Sgt Schultz]

yup.. I don't understand how anyone could be blaming the goalie on those.. those are ridiculous and happening WAY too often.. basically wide open goals

but.. it's trendy to blame him so...

When the worst goal of those was a breakaway, you know the defense is bad. Granted, the breakaway goal was soft, but that does not let the defense off the hook. It was still a breakaway, on top of a couple of cross-ice gifts.

I'm sure I have seen defenses that are worse at allowing those over the years, but off the top of my head I can't think of who they were.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I thought Binner was terrible on all four GA. The D is also bad, but Jordie done put his finger in the meteor shit.

 

[Cotton McKnight]

This season is a wash unless the defense magically gets fixed, van ryn and mactavish get fired all at once.

 

[BlueSeal]

FIX THE DEFENCE DAMMIT

 

[Reality Czech]

yup.. I don't understand how anyone could be blaming the goalie on those.. those are ridiculous and happening WAY too often.. basically wide open goals

but.. it's trendy to blame him so...

The only people who would criticize Binner are people who only read the box score instead of watching the game, or people who are clueless about hockey. You wouldn't really expect a goalie to stop any of those 4 shots. He could have played the breakaway better, but it's tough to blame a goalie on a breakaway goal, and while AA's goal was "stoppable" it's not easy to stop a top corner shot from the high slot. He had zero chance on the other two.

This past game was a great example of why his numbers are so bad. Games like that will tank a goalie's numbers real fast and there have been quite a few games like that this year. However, it seemed like a perfect game to start Greiss and Chief should have done so in my opinion. Far too many careless mistakes, and I think our injuries are catching up to us. Tucker, Rosen, Torpo, Walker and others looked like AHLers in that game. Kind of crazy how they can look so good against Nashville and then totally suck against the Craphawks two days later.

 

[PJJJP]

This is simply a game where the other goalie made the saves on those grade A chances while Binnington didn’t. You can’t expect a goalie to make a save on a grade A chance.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

I always wait until January to make any assertions on how good, bad, or mediocre teams are. Sometimes it takes teams that long to "find their legs" and show how good they are.

At this point, I don't think the second coming of Ken Dryden could save this team in the defensive end. We don't prevent the cross-ice passes by either breaking up the pass or checking the recipient. We allow people to get free in the slot, sometimes two at a time.

I understood what they were trying to do when they retooled the defense after the 2019 Cup. I didn't agree with the extent they did it, but I could at least see it. At this point, yet again this year, we see the results. This year seems worse in that respect, but it should not be a complete surprise.

It is almost like this team is built to be the 80's Oilers, except we don't score nearly as often and can't generate those kinds of offensive onslaughts, and we are not nearly as much of a threat to do so. Fuhr was considered a pretty good goalie in his day, but his stats do not reflect that. They couldn't, nor did they need to because the puck wound up in the opposing net so often. This team does not have opponents feeling good about themselves if they "hold us" to 4 goals.

It is time to call this what it is: a failed experiment. We have some good pieces, but not nearly enough, and have put ourselves in a situation that we can not play what was envisioned nor can we tighten it up and do the opposite on a consistent basis.

 

[TruBlu]

I don't think it was a "failed experiment," so much as having to work with what is available. Pietrangelo wasn't staying and, as far as I can tell, there was no other real legit defender on the market to replace him other than Krug. We are too heavy with puck moving defensemen and light on stay at home defensive guys that can keep the other team honest on the ice. We don't even really need a top pairing defenseman. Even guys like the likes of Edmundson and Gunnarson would make a huge difference. Bottom line is there is no set diagram or team type for what will make you successful in this league; you simply need to have a well rounded group with chemistry. "Fixing" the defense isn't going to change this team's trajectory. We have a lot of holes to fix including getting some two way forwards and some consistency out of our starting goalie. That has to start at the TDL. This team is going nowhere as currently assembled.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I always wait until January to make any assertions on how good, bad, or mediocre teams are. Sometimes it takes teams that long to "find their legs" and show how good they are.

At this point, I don't think the second coming of Ken Dryden could save this team in the defensive end. We don't prevent the cross-ice passes by either breaking up the pass or checking the recipient. We allow people to get free in the slot, sometimes two at a time.

I understood what they were trying to do when they retooled the defense after the 2019 Cup. I didn't agree with the extent they did it, but I could at least see it. At this point, yet again this year, we see the results. This year seems worse in that respect, but it should not be a complete surprise.

It is almost like this team is built to be the 80's Oilers, except we don't score nearly as often and can't generate those kinds of offensive onslaughts, and we are not nearly as much of a threat to do so. Fuhr was considered a pretty good goalie in his day, but his stats do not reflect that. They couldn't, nor did they need to because the puck wound up in the opposing net so often. This team does not have opponents feeling good about themselves if they "hold us" to 4 goals.

It is time to call this what it is: a failed experiment. We have some good pieces, but not nearly enough, and have put ourselves in a situation that we can not play what was envisioned nor can we tighten it up and do the opposite on a consistent basis.

Is there a way out without a coaching change? Personnel changes are needed too, but I believe the current personnel could be a lot better.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

The only people who would criticize Binner are people who only read the box score instead of watching the game, or people who are clueless about hockey. You wouldn't really expect a goalie to stop any of those 4 shots. He could have played the breakaway better, but it's tough to blame a goalie on a breakaway goal, and while AA's goal was "stoppable" it's not easy to stop a top corner shot from the high slot. He had zero chance on the other two.

This past game was a great example of why his numbers are so bad. Games like that will tank a goalie's numbers real fast and there have been quite a few games like that this year. However, it seemed like a perfect game to start Greiss and Chief should have done so in my opinion. Far too many careless mistakes, and I think our injuries are catching up to us. Tucker, Rosen, Torpo, Walker and others looked like AHLers in that game. Kind of crazy how they can look so good against Nashville and then totally suck against the Craphawks two days later.

Such a stupid post.

Binny didn’t do much of anything on any of those four goals.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Binny didn’t do much of anything on any of those four goals.

that’s kinda the point.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

that’s kinda the point.

No, it’s not.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

Is there a way out without a coaching change? Personnel changes are needed too, but I believe the current personnel could be a lot better.

I honestly do not know. I wondered when we went to a more transition-heavy defensive core whether Chief survives that. But, the problem I see is there is not enough scoring talent to win 7-5 games, and not enough defensive prowess to consistently win 2-1 games. There are a lot of teams that can make that statement about themselves, but they are all mediocre with little chance of bringing home the whole enchilada.

Ages ago, there was a railroad engineer that described his experience with a new steam engine design in a way that applies to us: When it's good, it's great. But when it's bad, it's awful. Our consistent swings may not quite reach those extremes, but it is the same idea.

I agree with TruBlu, we have a lot of holes to fix. The defense is just the most identifiable, and part of that is two-way forwards. It is going to be a process. I don't know if Chief or Binner are part of that. If they are, something has to give, because neither is playing to their strength as it is.

 

[Brian39]

Binner didn't have a prayer on goal #1.

But goal #2 was very stoppable and I'd call it a bad goal. There was enough backside pressure on a player with mediocre-at-best puck skills to prevent him from opening his entire toolbox. The odds of him driving wide and attempting a backhand at full speed are pretty low and he did very little to mask the fact that he was shooting. This wasn't a shootout where the shooter could freeze the goalie by slowing down. Binner is off his angle by a decent margin AND his blocker positioning pushed his stick blade away from the portion of the 5 hole that a right handed player driving right to left is likely to target. Look at how little Binner's stick is actually covering:

Ideally, Binner would be exactly centered between the black lines. This is a rare replay where the camera is almost perfectly in line with the puck's angle to the net, so those lines are close to perfectly representative of the angle. He's off that angle, which opens up a lot of space far side. The gray lines demonstrate how big of a 5 hole target he gave the shooter, which is essentially the entire center portion of the net. You want you stick covering that part, so that the shooter has to pick a smaller target to shoot at. Based on his positioning, that was a goal if the player was able to hit a very large target. And if he had missed far side and caught Binner in the pad/toe, the rebound was kicking right back out to him. That's a bad goal that feels even worse given the timing and shot count at the time.

I'm not going to fault him for goal #3, but he had his skate in proper position on his right post and should have gotten some kind of push off. I don't know that it would have been enough to make the save, but his right skate never leaves the post and he instead just kind of leans toward the far side post. His left skate/leg is actually retracting back toward his body as the puck crosses the line. There should have been some type of lateral push here. It might not have been enough to stop the puck, but he didn't play it well.

Goal #4 was a great shot. I wouldn't describe it as a bad goal at all, but it was stoppable and he gave up a bit too much room on the far side. There was no pre-shot passing and no backdoor options. he's carrying his blacker very low in his stance (while carrying his glove high as always), which gave the shooter a lot to shoot at high blocker. It was a great shot through traffic and I wouldn't call it a bad goal. But it was stoppable and his pre-shot positioning again gave the shooter lots to shoot at.

All in all, I think you've got a bad goal to make it 2-0 and then poor pre-shot effort/positioning on goals 3 and 4. He was making himself look really small out there and wasn't battling at all. He deserves a lot of blame for that game.

 

[Fez Whatley]

I honestly do not know. I wondered when we went to a more transition-heavy defensive core whether Chief survives that. But, the problem I see is there is not enough scoring talent to win 7-5 games, and not enough defensive prowess to consistently win 2-1 games. There are a lot of teams that can make that statement about themselves, but they are all mediocre with little chance of bringing home the whole enchilada.

Ages ago, there was a railroad engineer that described his experience with a new steam engine design in a way that applies to us: When it's good, it's great. But when it's bad, it's awful. Our consistent swings may not quite reach those extremes, but it is the same idea.

I agree with TruBlu, we have a lot of holes to fix. The defense is just the most identifiable, and part of that is two-way forwards. It is going to be a process. I don't know if Chief or Binner are part of that. If they are, something has to give, because neither is playing to their strength as it is.

I think Berube is suffering from the coaches around him. Van Ryn hasn't been popular for a long time and MacT isn't good. They took him off pk and it instantly got better. They went from Monty last year to MacTavish and we've all seen the results.
I think that everyone sees the writing on the wall at this point. The retool should be a somewhat brief one (unless a few things go catastrophically wrong) and during that time I imagine Army will try and bring in a few assistants that will work well with Berube and the entire team going forward. Imo the coaching staff has the same symptoms as the team does. Army will address it along with the roster and this bump in the road will be a distant memory in two or so years.

 

[Xerloris]

Binner didn't have a prayer on goal #1.

But goal #2 was very stoppable and I'd call it a bad goal. There was enough backside pressure on a player with mediocre-at-best puck skills to prevent him from opening his entire toolbox. The odds of him driving wide and attempting a backhand at full speed are pretty low and he did very little to mask the fact that he was shooting. This wasn't a shootout where the shooter could freeze the goalie by slowing down. Binner is off his angle by a decent margin AND his blocker positioning pushed his stick blade away from the portion of the 5 hole that a right handed player driving right to left is likely to target. Look at how little Binner's stick is actually covering:

View attachment 640011

Ideally, Binner would be exactly centered between the black lines. This is a rare replay where the camera is almost perfectly in line with the puck's angle to the net, so those lines are close to perfectly representative of the angle. He's off that angle, which opens up a lot of space far side. The gray lines demonstrate how big of a 5 hole target he gave the shooter, which is essentially the entire center portion of the net. You want you stick covering that part, so that the shooter has to pick a smaller target to shoot at. Based on his positioning, that was a goal if the player was able to hit a very large target. And if he had missed far side and caught Binner in the pad/toe, the rebound was kicking right back out to him. That's a bad goal that feels even worse given the timing and shot count at the time.

I'm not going to fault him for goal #3, but he had his skate in proper position on his right post and should have gotten some kind of push off. I don't know that it would have been enough to make the save, but his right skate never leaves the post and he instead just kind of leans toward the far side post. His left skate/leg is actually retracting back toward his body as the puck crosses the line. There should have been some type of lateral push here. It might not have been enough to stop the puck, but he didn't play it well.

Goal #4 was a great shot. I wouldn't describe it as a bad goal at all, but it was stoppable and he gave up a bit too much room on the far side. There was no pre-shot passing and no backdoor options. he's carrying his blacker very low in his stance (while carrying his glove high as always), which gave the shooter a lot to shoot at high blocker. It was a great shot through traffic and I wouldn't call it a bad goal. But it was stoppable and his pre-shot positioning again gave the shooter lots to shoot at.

All in all, I think you've got a bad goal to make it 2-0 and then poor pre-shot effort/positioning on goals 3 and 4. He was making himself look really small out there and wasn't battling at all. He deserves a lot of blame for that game.

Just a question but is that picture of Binnington mid move? It seems like he was moving. Anyhow I hate to call a break away a bad goal but it was poorly played for sure.

 

[LogosBlue]

Binner didn't have a great game vs. the Hawks, that's for sure. The breakaway was proof that he wasn't on that night. The defense was pretty bad as well. Anytime you can complete a cross ice pass below the dots, your gonna score 90% of the time.

That being said, all goalies have bad games. Patrick Roy and Dominic Hasek laid some stinkers out back in the day too. You just remember them for their incredible games / saves / winning games by themselves. Binner has that in him too. We just witnessed it the previous 3-4 games. He made some great game saving saves. He is the reason we won the cup in 2019 (and coaching change too).

I guess i'm saying that he won't win every game and he will have his really bad games just like other goalies but he does have the ability to tune out distractions and get in the zone especially when it matters most. People here saying he doesn't deserve his contract are selling him short and kidding themselves.

I will give it up for Griess though. He has played much better than i expected when we signed him.

 

[LogosBlue]

I think Berube is suffering from the coaches around him. Van Ryn hasn't been popular for a long time and MacT isn't good. They took him off pk and it instantly got better. They went from Monty last year to MacTavish and we've all seen the results.
I think that everyone sees the writing on the wall at this point. The retool should be a somewhat brief one (unless a few things go catastrophically wrong) and during that time I imagine Army will try and bring in a few assistants that will work well with Berube and the entire team going forward. Imo the coaching staff has the same symptoms as the team does. Army will address it along with the roster and this bump in the road will be a distant memory in two or so years.

Agreed. The assistant coaches need to go. I like Berube but he needs competent help. The loss of Monty hurt us more than expected. I really liked Kirk Muller when he was with us. Wonder what he is doing now?

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Agreed. The assistant coaches need to go. I like Berube but he needs competent help. The loss of Monty hurt us more than expected. I really liked Kirk Muller when he was with us. Wonder what he is doing now?

Associate Coach in Calgary

 

[Brian39]

Just a question but is that picture of Binnington mid move? It seems like he was moving. Anyhow I hate to call a break away a bad goal but it was poorly played for sure.

There was almost zero lateral movement from Binner from the time the Hawks player picked up the puck at the top of the circle to the time of my screenshot. His left (our right) skate remains outside the post the entire time. His right (our left) skate moves toward the far post a bit, but he is simply widening his stance and retreating toward his net rather than moving laterally. When he went into his butterfly, he went straight downward rather than sliding toward his blocker side to match the direction/momentum of the shooter:

This replay shows the angle from behind the goal and then the angle I took screenshots from. You can see clearly that he's not making any type of move that would justify being so far off his angle. I think the issue is that he wasn't moving laterally. He miscalculated the route the attacker was going to take and his angle of retreat didn't match how aggressively the shooter cut toward the middle. He needed to retreat more toward the far post than straight back toward the center of the goal from his initial angle. Since he didn't do that, he needed to push himself laterally with his left (our right) skate during the 2nd/3rd frames when the attacker is angling his skates left and wasn't in a good shooting position. He didn't, so then he was pretty much frozen into that bad angle once the shot threat was real again. It was too early for a butterfly slide, but too late to meaningfully react to a shot. His only hope at this point would have been stick positioning to cover the 5 hole, but he was carrying his blocker too low for his blade to be centered.

Edit: One thing that I want to look out for in the future is his blocker positioning (and how that positioning impacts his stick placement). On both this shot and their 4th goal, he's carrying his blocker pretty low, causing the blocker to overlap with his pad and his stick blade to be way toward his left leg instead of centered on his 5 hole. I'm not sure if he is intentionally carrying it there because he was getting beat a lot about 18-24 inches off the ice blocker side or if it was something unintentional. If he plans on carrying it there in the future, he probably needs to shorten his paddle length.

 

[DeuceNine]

There was almost zero lateral movement from Binner from the time the Hawks player picked up the puck at the top of the circle to the time of my screenshot. His left (our right) skate remains outside the post the entire time. His right (our left) skate moves toward the far post a bit, but he is simply widening his stance and retreating toward his net rather than moving laterally. When he went into his butterfly, he went straight downward rather than sliding toward his blocker side to match the direction/momentum of the shooter:

View attachment 640581
View attachment 640585
View attachment 640582
View attachment 640586
View attachment 640587
View attachment 640590
View attachment 640592

Lots of guys try to get goalies moving across the grain and go short side. I'm thinking that was Binner's read on this one. Very stoppable, no argument there, but I'm sure he's aware of that.