Proposal: Swap of 2nds

[KevinRedkey]

To Utah:
2026 2nd (BUF)

To Ottawa:
2026 2nd (OTT)

Utah gets the likely better of the two picks, and Ottawa gets their pick back. It gives Ottawa flexibility to make an offer sheet but also gives them a pick they can potentially give up if Bettman lowers the Dadonov penalty to a 2nd (which seems more fair IMHO)

 

[BigRig4]

I don’t want to move down 15 spots on the off-chance we decide to offer sheet someone

 

[KevinRedkey]

I don’t want to move down 15 spots on the off-chance we decide to offer sheet someone

And If Bettman lowers the penalty, what then?

Keep in mind our GM and owner are essentially betting on that actually happening, and we'd need our pick if it were to happen.

15 spots will be F-all compared to losing a 1st.

 

[PlayersLtd]

If that's the reasoning behind the trade just do it once the deal is brokered with Bettman.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

If that's the reasoning behind the trade just do it once the deal is brokered with Bettman.

I'd expect the price to go up if Utah knew Bettman was going to take our 2nd...if we had it.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

And If Bettman lowers the penalty, what then?

Keep in mind our GM and owner are essentially betting on that actually happening, and we'd need our pick if it were to happen.

15 spots will be F-all compared to losing a 1st.

The penalty will almost assuredly be lowered, I'm not worried about it.

If it isn't, them's the breaks. Don't make bad decisions out of fear, don't make a tough spot even worse. What you are suggesting isn't cutting our losses, it is make our losses even worse.

This team and our AHL team need a lot more skill, just BPA all the time because Dorion left us with very little.

 

[BondraTime]

The penalty will almost assuredly be lowered, I'm not worried about it.

If it isn't, them's the breaks. Don't make bad decisions out of fear, don't make a tough spot even worse. What you are suggesting isn't cutting our losses, it is make our losses even worse.

This team and our AHL team need a lot more skill, just BPA all the time because Dorion left us with very little.

That's definitely not true

 

[PlayersLtd]

If that's the reasoning behind the trade just do it once the deal is brokered with Bettman.

Meh, they have two years to swap out. That's enough leverage to get Armstrong to not be a prick about it.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

That's definitely not true

I think it is likely.

However, we aren't a darling franchise and the transgression was very serious, so I wouldn't be surprised if the penalty stayed the same.

I'd be operating under the assumption that the precedent was set with the Kovalchuk in Jersey situation, but I also know the real world: the only thing that matters is favouritism and connections.

 

[BondraTime]

I think it is likely.

However, we aren't a darling franchise and the transgression was very serious, so I wouldn't be surprised if the penalty stayed the same.

I'd be operating under the assumption that the precedent was set with the Kovalchuk in Jersey situation, but I also know the real world: the only thing that matters is favouritism and connections.

I think it’s extremely unlikely

Kovalchuk situation was quite a bit different. He had left the NHL, Jersey were hit with a dead cap for a long time, and it wasn’t a situation where Jersey broke league by laws. They just finessed a rule that was amended shortly after, that multiple teams had done the same around the same time. NHL was just trying to nip the problem in the bud before it got out of hand (Hossa, Luongo, Kovalchuk contracts starting to become ridiculous and them not having rules in place against it)

Lamerello only called on the league to amend the punishment after Kovalchuk retired and they were hit with all the dead cap, and the league agreed to pay back 1.5 million and give them the 30th. The Sens have no catalyst like that.

It’s much more similar to the Coyotes losing their 1st for breaking league bylaws, which happened much more recently with no amendment to the penalty

 

[BigRig4]

I think it’s extremely unlikely

Kovalchuk situation was quite a bit different. He had left the NHL, Jersey were hit with a dead cap for a long time, and it wasn’t a situation where Jersey broke league by laws. They just finessed a rule that was amended shortly after, that multiple teams had done the same around the same time. NHL was just trying to nip the problem in the bud before it got out of hand (Hossa, Luongo, Kovalchuk contracts starting to become ridiculous and them not having rules in place against it)

Lamerello only called on the league to amend the punishment after Kovalchuk retired and they were hit with all the dead cap, and the league agreed to pay back 1.5 million and give them the 30th. The Sens have no catalyst like that.

It’s much more similar to the Coyotes losing their 1st for breaking league bylaws, which happened much more recently with no amendment to the penalty

The big difference is going to be (imo) that our actions impacted another team. There were no real victims in the Jersey situation, whereas in our situation Vegas got screwed by Dorion’s negligence.

 

[Micklebot]

The big difference is going to be (imo) that our actions impacted another team. There were no real victims in the Jersey situation, whereas in our situation Vegas got screwed by Dorion’s negligence.

I'm not sure you can say there are no victims in the NJ scenario; Kovalchuk was a sought after UFA, and may have opted to sign elsewhere if not for the creative contract NJ offered to him to, they took him off the board for 29 other teams (or more specifically, LA and NYI who were the other finalists) until weeks later and the deal was officially voided when teams had finalized their rosters.

That said, I don't think any punishment to Jersey was warranted at all, at least not the degree of the punishment; the league approves all contracts, they should have just rejected it and that's that. It's not like they haven't rejected other contracts before. NJ appeals, lose the appeal, and then have to figure out how to fill out their roster in a cap compliant way.

But, the league decided attempting to circumvent the cap in that specific way needed to be punished, especially since it potentially affected LA and NYI, so they got hit up for a couple picks.

The fact that Kovalchuk signed a second, cap compliant deal, then retired early from it leaving NJD with a dead cap hit shouldn't matter at all in whether or not attempting to circumvent the cap, and potentially preventing two other teams in the mix from getting an impact UFA, is worthy of punishment or not. Had NJD not been able to come to terms with Kovalchuuk on that second deal and instead singed some other player that retired early leaving them with dead cap they'd have no argument, the fact that it was the same guy who they eventually signed to a different deal shouldn't matter, that was just a convenient excuse for the league to fix the mistake they made by being to heavy handed in the first place.

 

[dumbdick]

The big difference is going to be (imo) that our actions impacted another team. There were no real victims in the Jersey situation, whereas in our situation Vegas got screwed by Dorion’s negligence.

You could probably argue that VGK lawyers probably could have asked about an NTC, given everyone could see it on capgeek. I wouldn't be shocked if a few VGK noticed the gaffe and didn't make a stink until after the deal was done.

Or that the league holds some responsibility for being so f***ing mickey mouse with their processes that these kinds of mistakes can slip through when registering business transactions worth $10M+.

A little checkbox in the trade documentation certifying that the player doesn't have an NTC/NMC would go a long f***ing way. I bet you the league even added one in there since then.

 

[BigRig4]

You could probably argue that VGK lawyers probably could have asked about an NTC, given everyone could see it on capgeek. I wouldn't be shocked if a few VGK noticed the gaffe and didn't make a stink until after the deal was done.

Or that the league holds some responsibility for being so f***ing mickey mouse with their processes that these kinds of mistakes can slip through when registering business transactions worth $10M+.

A little checkbox in the trade documentation certifying that the player doesn't have an NTC/NMC would go a long f***ing way. I bet you the league even added one in there since then.

I generally agree with everything you said, but my understanding of what transpired is slightly different. I understand that the NTC for Dadonov was publicly known. Ottawa and Vegas both acknowledged it throughout the discussions. The issue that arose was that Dorion asserted that it was no longer enforceable because Dadonov had either missed or chosen not to make a submission by the deadline for that particular year, and thus it had become void. Allegedly, Dorion straight up lied on this point.

 

[BondraTime]

You could probably argue that VGK lawyers probably could have asked about an NTC, given everyone could see it on capgeek. I wouldn't be shocked if a few VGK noticed the gaffe and didn't make a stink until after the deal was done.

Or that the league holds some responsibility for being so f***ing mickey mouse with their processes that these kinds of mistakes can slip through when registering business transactions worth $10M+.

A little checkbox in the trade documentation certifying that the player doesn't have an NTC/NMC would go a long f***ing way. I bet you the league even added one in there since then.

Capgeek has absolutely no clue what was happening, or if the NTC was in play

They know whats there the day the contract is signed, that's it.

Vegas and the NHL were told that the list wasn't submitted, thus was null and void, something Capgeek would have 0 clue about

The league andn Vegas knew there was a NTC, they were told by Dorion that it wasn't submitted and wasn't enforcable anymore. That's why the Sens are being punished.

 

[dumbdick]

I generally agree with everything you said, but my understanding of what transpired is slightly different. I understand that the NTC for Dadonov was publicly known. Ottawa and Vegas both acknowledged it throughout the discussions. The issue that arose was that Dorion asserted that it was no longer enforceable because Dadonov had either missed or chosen not to make a submission by the deadline for that particular year, and thus it had become void. Allegedly, Dorion straight up lied on this point.

Yeah that sounds familiar now.

I would still suggest that the league is mickey mouse here.

Dorion should have never been in a position to lie about this (i doubt he intentionally lied vs just got it wrong or got bad info from a staffer). He's a dufus not a liar.

That change in NTC status should have been registered with the league and the player notified when his no trade list deadline was missed. Apparently didn't happen cause league doesn't require it.

The existence or non-existence of an NTC should be verified as a step in processing a trade, and noted in the signed paperwork. Apparently didn't happen cause the league doesn't require it.

The player/agent should get a copy of the trade paperwork and be given 24 hours post trade to raise a red flag if he sees a doc saying that he has no NTC when he knows he has one. Apparently didn't happen cause the league doesn't require it.

Lots of ways this could have been avoided. This is a league worth tens of billions with a lot of lawyers. They processed a trade worth millions, where some of the details of the agreement were based solely on verbal assurances given by Pierre Dorion at a meeting.

Mickey f***ing Mouse.

 

[Cosmix]

I don’t want to move down 15 spots on the off-chance we decide to offer sheet someone

Agreed. However, it could be a backroom agreement to swap those picks IF the Senators decide to submit an offer sheet to somebody.

 

[darude]

I don't see why anyone would believe the penalty will be lowered. The only argument for that was the nature of the nondisclosure to Andlauer during the sale, and then really it should be on the old ownership group rather than the league.

They can't be having people mess with the league rules. It's shitty that the Sens get punished for the league's ridiculous system of managing contracts while Chicago and all of those involved in covering up sexual abuse pay a joke of a fine and are already back in the league.
It's ugly but it's what the league is.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I generally agree with everything you said, but my understanding of what transpired is slightly different. I understand that the NTC for Dadonov was publicly known. Ottawa and Vegas both acknowledged it throughout the discussions. The issue that arose was that Dorion asserted that it was no longer enforceable because Dadonov had either missed or chosen not to make a submission by the deadline for that particular year, and thus it had become void. Allegedly, Dorion straight up lied on this point.

My understanding was that he didn’t lie. Dadonov hadn’t submitted it at the time he made the claim. The problem was that he did end up submitting before the midnight deadline after Dorion had already moved forward with the deal.

Dorion jumped the gun and was negligent, idiotic, and Mickey Mouse, but I doubt he purposefully mislead anyone.

 

[Micklebot]

Capgeek has absolutely no clue what was happening, or if the NTC was in play

They know whats there the day the contract is signed, that's it.

Vegas and the NHL were told that the list wasn't submitted, thus was null and void, something Capgeek would have 0 clue about

The league andn Vegas knew there was a NTC, they were told by Dorion that it wasn't submitted and wasn't enforcable anymore. That's why the Sens are being punished.

What confuses me about this is the league initially investigated and determined that there would be no punishment for Ottawa back in Mar 2022. Then, a year later they've re-opened the case and found that Ottawa/Dorion straight up lied about it.

The whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense since if Dorion told the NHL that the List hadn't been submitted, when in fact it had, it should have been identified the first go around in 2022 and we'd have been punished way earlier.

The only explanation I can think of is that the league initially were lead to believe this was all just a clerical error by Ottawa and decided they couldn't come down hard on it, only to re-open the case and after interviewing people involved decided it was an intentional act by Dorion to lie. But, that begs the question, why didn't they investigate more thoroughly in the first place before absolving Ottawa in 2022? And why wouldn't Ottawa be on the hook for a clerical error?

The fact that the league operated on the honour system when it comes to tracking NTC lists in the first place was a giant failure by the NHL. There is ample examples of teams "cheating" to get an advantage. If Vegas hadn't tried to trade Dadonov, we'd have "gotten away with it". We have no idea how often this may have happened before and just not been caught.

 

[BondraTime]

What confuses me about this is the league initially investigated and determined that there would be no punishment for Ottawa back in Mar 2022. Then, a year later they've re-opened the case and found that Ottawa/Dorion straight up lied about it.

The whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense since if Dorion told the NHL that the List hadn't been submitted, when in fact it had, it should have been identified the first go around in 2022 and we'd have been punished way earlier.

The only explanation I can think of is that the league initially were lead to believe this was all just a clerical error by Ottawa and decided they couldn't come down hard on it, only to re-open the case and after interviewing people involved decided it was an intentional act by Dorion to lie. But, that begs the question, why didn't they investigate more thoroughly in the first place before absolving Ottawa in 2022? And why wouldn't Ottawa be on the hook for a clerical error?

The fact that the league operated on the honour system when it comes to tracking NTC lists in the first place was a giant failure by the NHL. There is ample examples of teams "cheating" to get an advantage. If Vegas hadn't tried to trade Dadonov, we'd have "gotten away with it". We have no idea how often this may have happened before and just not been caught.

I don’t think there is anything to it other than they just got all the information.

As soon as it happened it was extremely obvious the Sens were going to receive a punishment. It just took longer than expected.

 

[Micklebot]

I don’t think there is anything to it other than they just got all the information.

As soon as it happened it was extremely obvious the Sens were going to receive a punishment. It just took longer than expected.

They literally said there would be no punishment for the sens when it happened. You can say it was obvious, and that may be true, but that makes them jumping to say no discipline to the sens even stupider.

It also shouldn't take a year and a half to figure out if it was incredibly obvious. The claim is Dorion said the list wasn't submitted, but Dadonov provided evidence it was and acknowledgement it was recieved. They also claim the league was told by Dorion no list was submitted. Right there, you have enough to initiate the investigation, instead they say no discipline to the sens, then wait months before doing more digging.

It was a clown show top to bottom by both the NHL and Dorion/sens.

 

[BigRig4]

What confuses me about this is the league initially investigated and determined that there would be no punishment for Ottawa back in Mar 2022. Then, a year later they've re-opened the case and found that Ottawa/Dorion straight up lied about it.

The whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense since if Dorion told the NHL that the List hadn't been submitted, when in fact it had, it should have been identified the first go around in 2022 and we'd have been punished way earlier.

The only explanation I can think of is that the league initially were lead to believe this was all just a clerical error by Ottawa and decided they couldn't come down hard on it, only to re-open the case and after interviewing people involved decided it was an intentional act by Dorion to lie. But, that begs the question, why didn't they investigate more thoroughly in the first place before absolving Ottawa in 2022? And why wouldn't Ottawa be on the hook for a clerical error?

The fact that the league operated on the honour system when it comes to tracking NTC lists in the first place was a giant failure by the NHL. There is ample examples of teams "cheating" to get an advantage. If Vegas hadn't tried to trade Dadonov, we'd have "gotten away with it". We have no idea how often this may have happened before and just not been caught.

I think it’s been reported that Vegas pushed pretty hard for the investigation to be re-opened and Ottawa to be punished. I think Andlauer referenced they wanted their “pound of flesh” at his press conference immediately after the punishment.

 

[BondraTime]

They literally said there would be no punishment for the sens when it happened. You can say it was obvious, and that may be true, but that makes them jumping to say no discipline to the sens even stupider.

It also shouldn't take a year and a half to figure out if it was incredibly obvious. The claim is Dorion said the list wasn't submitted, but Dadonov provided evidence it was and acknowledgement it was recieved. They also claim the league was told by Dorion no list was submitted. Right there, you have enough to initiate the investigation, instead they say no discipline to the sens, then wait months before doing more digging.

It was a clown show top to bottom by both the NHL and Dorion/sens.

Vegas pushed for it to be re-opened because they were catching flack around the league for something that was very clearly the fault of the Sens.

League should have punished the Sens right away, instead they took the year to do so.

It was a clown show all around, the Sens are deserved of the punsihment, it just took the long way around the track

 

[Xspyrit]

No Thanks

Not in a position to lose/lower draft capital, we desperately need more

All of this for an offer sheet that :

- most likely wouldn't work/would be matched.
- Staios creating ennemies around the league when we just got out of a 7 years Dorion era.

The REAL need is to change the drafting philosophy.