Sunnyvale Shithawks (1) vs Montreal Victorias (3) - 2026 ATD Foster Hewitt Division Final | Page 2 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Sunnyvale Shithawks (1) vs Montreal Victorias (3) - 2026 ATD Foster Hewitt Division Final

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Fantastic research again, but it's a few conclusions I would take issue with.

I don't think the issue is whether Harvey and Stevens are better players than Potvin and McCrimmon. The issue is by how much. McCrimmon played major minutes on elite defensive teams, was trusted beside Potvin and Bourque (on Team Canada as well), and built his reputation specifically as a shutdown partner for offensive stars. He's a 3 in ATD I would think.

Likewise, Johnson and Clapper are not merely a good second pair; they form one of the strongest defensive second pairings in this draft. If Sunnyvale wins Pairing 1 and Montreal wins Pairing 2, then we are discussing degree, not a sweeping defensive mismatch.

On the third pair,
Pratt is the best offensive player, no dispute. But he is also the highest-risk defender on either third pair. If Montreal’s identity is sustained forecheck, board pressure, and forcing defenders to retrieve pucks under contact, Pratt is exactly the kind of player who can be exposed — not because he lacks talent, but because his strengths come with defensive and penalty risk.

Harmon helps the puck-moving, but he does not solve the defensive risk. A third pair of Pratt-Harmon may move the puck better than Morrow, but it also gives Montreal a clearer target. Neilson-McAvoy is lower-ceiling offensively, but it is more stable, more modern, and less likely to hand away penalties. McAvoy is also very strong by modern shot-share/impact metrics. At minimum I see the third pairs as a WASH, and for this matchup I prefer Montreal’s stability.

So again, I think the defense comes down to concentration versus balance.
Sunnyvale has the biggest names at the top. Montreal has the more stable depth and the stronger second pair. That is why I don’t see a clear Sunnyvale defensive edge.

Special teams are similar. Sunnyvale’s power play is dangerous, but that edge is blunted by Sunnyvale’s penalty profile, Montreal’s cleaner play, and Montreal’s strong PK1.

You have the better coach. I have the better goalie. This remains a seven-game series, not a mismatch.


Precisely, the issue IS by how much. That's proving my position IMO.

If we use the HoH projects as a good barometer, there is a major difference between having McCrimmon on a top ATD pairing, vs McDonagh on a 2nd, playing #4/5 minutes (he'll split with Pratt evenly).

If McCrimmon is a legitimate #3, as you say, in a 24 team draft, he'd have to be a top 65-75 defensemen, ever. He isn't. Point blank, the resume just doesn't stand out enough. Never a Norris finalist, a singular 2nd team AS nod, despite playing at the same time as Rod Langway, the premier stay at home template for the 80's and routinely being bested by Langway in all the major accolades departments. And Langway would still be a step down from Scott Stevens head to head!

McCrimmon has little to hang his hat on as far as playoff resumes go (some of that is just not playing on 1 of the dynasties in the 80's certainly).

The claim to fame for McCrimmon is the +/- record. If that's the case, guess who's been the best at that over the last 15 years?

Ryan McDonagh.

And McDonagh has a deeper Norris record, despite not playing in an era where defensive standouts get ANY credit (unlike the early/mid 80's when stay at home guys saw an unusual light shine on them). He is in the conversation for best PK'er over the last 15 years. McCrimmon was not used nearly as much on the kill so his value is tied more exclusively to ES, thus limiting the reach of his impact.

Nobody has blocked more shots over McDonagh's career. Regular season or postseason. That's a 16 year sample.

Edit - Sorry, McDonagh is 5th all time in blocked shots, regular season. #1 in playoffs.

3 straight Cup finals appearances where he was playing top pairing minutes (23 minutes) on 2 winners, the 2nd against Montreal was a stellar showing.

McDonagh, once again is properly placed as a #4 here IMHO. To be a #4, you just need to fall inside the top 100 to be passable in my mind. I think his career gets him that distinction, considering he was up for voting in the top 80 project, before just missing out.

So to summarize, if we're talking about gaps, the gap from Scott Stevens to Brad McCrimmon is a much wider crack then Moose Johnson to Ryan McDonagh. If someone disagrees with that particular statement, I'm all ears and eyes.

I didn't insinuate there was a sweeping mismatch. Stevens-Harvey simply outclasses Potvin-McCrimmon by several measures on a historical, ATD scale.

The best defenseman on either 2nd pairings, is Cleghorn (next best is Clapper). So that puts Montreal behind already. Where you gain the slight edge, is that Moose Johnson is multiple tiers above McDonagh. That's how you go from slight advantage Sunnyvale back to even, and then into the slight advantage Montreal conclusion as I laid out a above. I feel that is very fair, considering the historical logic I've put forth.

There really is little to suggest that Pratt is the highest risk defender when you look at where his teams finished in defensive metrics. Just like Glen Harmon there are figures that suggest his impact went well beyond just producing points. Speaking of Harmon I highlighted multiple pieces of information that showed his impact on Montreal, not just in terms of transition but defensive standing. Some mighty fine statistical numbers show he wasn't a liability defensively. Not saying he's Doug Harvey, but based on the matchup, is the right play.

You are trying to employ an aggressive, wave approach, forechecking system. The best, most reliable way of beating that is having blueliners (and a G, which we do) who can skate and handle the puck (along with F's who had the stickhandling and transition experience to link up, which Sunnyvale does).

Swapping Harmon is for Morrow is a huge boon, even if we're talking about a guy who probably won't play more than 5-6 minutes on any given night. Remember, Harvey and Cleghorn can easily eat up 55+ over the course of a game.


Sure, we give up size, but Harmon wasn't a softie by any biographical entry we have. Morrow would have been a bigger liability against a team like yours as he's probably a below average mover on an ATD scale and is much more suspectable to getting hemmed in and dumping the puck to someone on the other team.

Getting back to minutes, it's more likely your F's will be seeing Pratt-Harvey than Pratt-Harmon. That's just the nature of having 3 #1D with the top guy being a 30 minute per night constant, Doug Harvey.

Even in the rare event it is Pratt-Harmon out there, I find little to suggest they'd be eaten up in the 4-6 minutes of time they share together and possess the exact qualities you want against a team that is going to be overly aggressive in pushing up the ice. You don't have a set of stone hands to prey on.

And again, if we're talking historical gaps, it's hard to eclipse a defensive pairing that has a Hart trophy on it, and 4 postseason AS nods with a no doubt retro Norris and 4 SC titles. I like Neilson-McAvoy as a pair. They can't match that kind of resume.

We'll get into G/ST by Friday, close of business. :naughty:

I don't think this is a mismatch of a series and you built a team that will take me to a 6th game. I simply don't think you'll score near enough to beat us, best out of 7. I've been doing this a long time and can, with unwavering conviction, say it's the best roster (coaching/fit included) I've ever built. I'm going to stand on the table and plant the flag that says there is no one beating us on this journey. Why I'm being so thorough for the voters is directly connected to that belief. I'm studying the angles, matchups, and finding legitimate counters for any possible scenario.

If the voters end up disagreeing, I will applaud them, whoever my opponent is, and walk into the "shit abyss" damn proud of the Sunnyvale Shithawks!
 
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Precisely, the issue IS by how much. That's proving my position IMO.

If we use the HoH projects as a good barometer, there is a major difference between having McCrimmon on a top ATD pairing, vs McDonagh on a 2nd, playing #4/5 minutes (he'll split with Pratt evenly).

If McCrimmon is a legitimate #3, as you say, in a 24 team draft, he'd have to be a top 65-75 defensemen, ever. He isn't. Point blank, the resume just doesn't stand out enough. Never a Norris finalist, a singular 2nd team AS nod, despite playing at the same time as Rod Langway, the premier stay at home template for the 80's and routinely being bested by Langway in all the major accolades departments. And Langway would still be a step down from Scott Stevens head to head!

McCrimmon has little to hang his hat on as far as playoff resumes go (some of that is just not playing on 1 of the dynasties in the 80's certainly).

The claim to fame for McCrimmon is the +/- record. If that's the case, guess who's been the best at that over the last 15 years?

Ryan McDonagh.

And McDonagh has a deeper Norris record, despite not playing in an era where defensive standouts get ANY credit (unlike the early/mid 80's when stay at home guys saw an unusual light shine on them). He is in the conversation for best PK'er over the last 15 years. McCrimmon was not used nearly as much on the kill so his value is tied more exclusively to ES, thus limiting the reach of his impact.

Nobody has blocked more shots over McDonagh's career. Regular season or postseason. That's a 16 year sample.

Edit - Sorry, McDonagh is 5th all time in blocked shots, regular season. #1 in playoffs.

3 straight Cup finals appearances where he was playing top pairing minutes (23 minutes) on 2 winners, the 2nd against Montreal was a stellar showing.

McDonagh, once again is properly placed as a #4 here IMHO. To be a #4, you just need to fall inside the top 100 to be passable in my mind. I think his career gets him that distinction, considering he was up for voting in the top 80 project, before just missing out.

So to summarize, if we're talking about gaps, the gap from Scott Stevens to Brad McCrimmon is a much wider crack then Moose Johnson to Ryan McDonagh. If someone disagrees with that particular statement, I'm all ears and eyes.

I didn't insinuate there was a sweeping mismatch. Stevens-Harvey simply outclasses Potvin-McCrimmon by several measures on a historical, ATD scale.

The best defenseman on either 2nd pairings, is Cleghorn (next best is Clapper). So that puts Montreal behind already. Where you gain the slight edge, is that Moose Johnson is multiple tiers above McDonagh. That's how you go from slight advantage Sunnyvale back to even, and then into the slight advantage Montreal conclusion as I laid out a above. I feel that is very fair, considering the historical logic I've put forth.

There really is little to suggest that Pratt is the highest risk defender when you look at where his teams finished in defensive metrics. Just like Glen Harmon there are figures that suggest his impact went well beyond just producing points. Speaking of Harmon I highlighted multiple pieces of information that showed his impact on Montreal, not just in terms of transition but defensive standing. Some mighty fine statistical numbers show he wasn't a liability defensively. Not saying he's Doug Harvey, but based on the matchup, is the right play.

You are trying to employ an aggressive, wave approach, forechecking system. The best, most reliable way of beating that is having blueliners (and a G, which we do) who can skate and handle the puck (along with F's who had the stickhandling and transition experience to link up, which Sunnyvale does).

Swapping Harmon is for Morrow is a huge boon, even if we're talking about a guy who probably won't play more than 5-6 minutes on any given night. Remember, Harvey and Cleghorn can easily eat up 55+ over the course of a game.


Sure, we give up size, but Harmon wasn't a softie by any biographical entry we have. Morrow would have been a bigger liability against a team like yours as he's probably a below average mover on an ATD scale and is much more suspectable to getting hemmed in and dumping the puck to someone on the other team.

Getting back to minutes, it's more likely your F's will be seeing Pratt-Harvey than Pratt-Harmon. That's just the nature of having 3 #1D with the top guy being a 30 minute per night constant, Doug Harvey.

Even in the rare event it is Pratt-Harmon out there, I find little to suggest they'd be eaten up in the 4-6 minutes of time they share together and possess the exact qualities you want against a team that is going to be overly aggressive in pushing up the ice. You don't have a set of stone hands to prey on.

And again, if we're talking historical gaps, it's hard to eclipse a defensive pairing that has a Hart trophy on it, and 4 postseason AS nods with a no doubt retro Norris and 4 SC titles. I like Neilson-McAvoy as a pair. They can't match that kind of resume.

We'll get into G/ST by Friday, close of business. :naughty:

I don't think this is a mismatch of a series and you built a team that will take me to a 6th game. I simply don't think you'll score near enough to beat us, best out of 7. I've been doing this a long time and can, with unwavering conviction, say it's the best roster (coaching/fit included) I've ever built. I'm going to stand on the table and plant the flag that says there is no one beating us on this journey. Why I'm being so thorough for the voters is directly connected to that belief. I'm studying the angles, matchups, and finding legitimate counters for any possible scenario.

If the voters end up disagreeing, I will applaud them, whoever my opponent is, and walk into the "shit abyss" damn proud of the Sunnyvale Shithawks!

I still think there is a strong case to be made that the two groups overall are a wash.

Using the recent Top 80 defenseman project and 5Y draft market:

S-Doug Harvey — #2
Denis Potvin — #6
S-Sprague Cleghorn — #14
S-Scott Stevens — #22
Dit Clapper — #24
Moose Johnson — #44
Brad McCrimmon — 222 avg 5Y

S-Ryan McDonagh473 avg 5Y (36 dmen below McCrimmon, the same aggregate advantage between our Big 3’s combined and I prefer my third pair for this matchup. Overall my lower PIM’s and better skating make this a wash).

• The two Big 3s are relatively close historically:
  • Harvey #2 vs Potvin #6
  • Stevens #22 vs Clapper #24
  • Cleghorn #14 vs Moose #44
• The McCrimmon/McDonagh gap is much larger than Sunnyvale acknowledges:
  • McCrimmon: 222 avg 5Y
  • McDonagh: 473 avg 5Y
  • 36 defensemen separate them in recent ATD valuation.
• Both of Montreal’s top pairs are supported by elite two-way centers with size and Point is a luxury 4C that can defend and score
  • Barkov
  • Kopitar
  • Point
This support structure matters when evaluating defensive groups, not just defensemen in isolation.


• McCrimmon is being evaluated differently than McDonagh.
  • McDonagh’s case is largely role, fit, PK value and matchup utility.
  • McCrimmon’s historical value was also role-based: stabilizing elite offensive partners (Bourque, Howe, Team Canada).
If role value counts for McDonagh, it should count for McCrimmon.


• Montreal is built on depth and flexibility.
  • Moose can move up.
  • Clapper can play multiple roles.
  • Three of Montreal’s top four can play either side.
  • The group is not dependent on one fixed pairing.
• My Big 3 will carry the heavy minutes.
  • McCrimmon and McAvoy are support pieces.
  • They provide relief minutes and matchup flexibility.
  • Sunnyvale’s reliance on its Big 3 is greater and they will have added penalty burdens already on top of having to deal with all the size in my lineup which will wear them down.
  • And if Pratt is stapled to the bench by Arbour, they will have to pick up even more minutes.

• McAvoy is an elite modern impact defenseman by advanced metrics.
  • Harmon does not bring that level of modern defensive impact.

Stevens is an elite defensive defenseman, but:
  • He should not automatically be treated as a full two-way defenseman unless we are specifically emphasizing his Capitals years.

• Style matters.
  • Clapper and Moose both skate well.
  • Both bring major size, elite defense and are both over 6-4, 225 adjusted.
  • Both fit a territorial, cycle, and matchup game.

Penalty profile favors Montreal.
  • Sunnyvale carries substantially more penalty risk throughout the lineup.
  • Pratt’s penalty history is particularly concerning. Combined with his poor defense, he would likely be stapled to the bench by Arbor, who would have absolutely hated him.
  • Additional PK burden increases the workload on Sunnyvale’s top defensemen.
  • Clapper played a rough game but with only 0.50 PIMs.
One thing I think gets lost in these apples-to-apples comparisons is that Clapper was not a traditional stay-at-home defenseman. If Harvey is being credited for bringing offensive elements to the position before they became common, then Clapper deserves similar credit. He was an star forward who successfully transitioned to defense, won a Hart Trophy there, and was arguably the best defenseman in hockey at his peak. Harvey was the greater offensive defenseman, but Clapper was far more than a defensive specialist.


Overall Conclusion:

Sunnyvale has the best individual defensive pair.

Montreal has the stronger second pair, cleaner penalty profile, greater flexibility, better center support, and significantly more depth behind its Big 3.



Result: Defensive groups are approximately a wash.
 
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I could move Moose up if voters prefer a cleaner apples-to-apples comparison. It doesn’t really change my defense because the group is built on depth and matchup flexibility, not one overloaded pair, and three of my top four can play both sides. McCrimmon and even MacAvoy can give my big three some much-needed rest while you do not have that release valve in any of your other defense men. So again it’s a matter of depth and balance against the names at the top.

Your McDonagh argument is largely role/fit based, which is fine. But then that same logic has to apply to McCrimmon. McCrimmon’s role was always as a stabilizing partner beside a true #1 (Bourque and then Howe and also on Team Canada).

Using the recent Top 80 defenseman project and 5Y draft market:

Doug Harvey — #2
Denis Potvin — #6
Sprague Cleghorn — #14
Scott Stevens — #22
Dit Clapper — #24
Moose Johnson — #44
Brad McCrimmon — 222 avg 5Y
Ryan McDonagh — 473 avg 5Y

So the two Big 3s are relatively close by Top 80 rank, while the McCrimmon/McDonagh gap by recent draft market is substantial.

Both of my top two pairs will also have all-time two-way centers with size supporting them in Barkov and Kopitar.

My Big 3 will get the heavy minutes, with McCrimmon and the third pair used in more controlled roles. Your 3v3 edge is slight, and McCrimmon is materially ahead of McDonagh by recent ATD market value. Also with the defensive hole, PIM trouble and lack of skating quality on your third pair, overall I still see the defensive groups as a wash.

McAvoy is an elite advanced statistics defenseman in the modern NHL. You don’t have that level of play in Harmon.

I also don’t think Stevens can be sold as a full two-way defenseman in this context unless we are specifically using his Capitals years. His ATD value here is primarily as an elite defensive/physical presence beside Harvey.

And style matters. Clapper and Moose can both skate, both bring major size, and my top-four penalty profile is substantially cleaner than Sunnyvale’s. With the caveat that both Moose and Cleghorn lower their penalties in the playoffs substantially. Clapper has a minuscule 0.50/playoff game despite playing a heavy game.


Market value fluctuates significantly w/active players. I don't think we can ever use that as a legitimate barometer for historical ATD value. It's often chided to be frank.

If we're judging the record, the analytics, the historical value of each player, there is very, very little separating McCrimmon and McDonagh.

+/- glory by McC canceled out by McD.

The latter gives you a more robust defensive game because you can actually deploy him w/big minutes on the kill. McCrimmon, historically didn't do that.

PIM's are just not that much of an issue for Sunnyvale. I already highlighted those earlier in the thread, but will repost, especially considering we're swapping out Morrow for Harmon.

Sunnyvale:
Stevens:
RS - 140/82
PO - 141/82

Pratt:
RS - 78/82
PO - 120/82

Cleghorn (NHL only)
RS - 172/82
PO - 102/82

Harvey:
RS - 90/82
PO - 91/82

Harmon:
RS - 60/82
PO - 57/82

McDonagh:
RS - 30/82
PO - 43/82

Montreal:
McCrimmon
RS - 95/82
PO - 124/82

Potvin -
RS - 105/82
PO - 112/82

McAvoy:
RS - 70/82
PO - 87/82

Neilson:
RS - 72/82
PO - 77/82

Clapper:
RS - 44/82
PO - 50/82

Moose Johnson:
Top-6 in League PIM Five Times (2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 6th)

He had 51 PIM in 19 SC challenge games. 2.68 PIM/G. Compare that to the 515 PIM he had in 260 regular season games between the ECAHA, NHA, and PCHA. That's 1.98 PIM/G.

Johnson
1781681868919.png


I see Cleghorn had 89 PIM in 41 combined playoff/SCF games. That's 2.17 PIM/G. 803 PIMs in 374 regular season games across all leagues. 2.14 PIM/G

Cleghorn
1781683514607.png


Pratt is the only defender on Sunnyvale that sees his PIM average rise significantly from RS to PO. McCrimmon's figures jump a lot. Potvin's creep up more than Harvey. McAvoy's go the wrong way. Even Clapper does as well, though as you said, is a cleaner player than you usually get w/that kind of physicality.

But let's not ignore the figures above, which clearly don't paint this as some sort of battle between a squeaky clean roster and a band full of psychos.

Scott Stevens 2 way ability exists even if his style of play will resemble the NJ version. He doesn't automatically lose the capability/potential. It's not like we're taking only portions of a player's career and tossing the rest aside. McCrimmon played through the richest offensive era in hockey history and never resembled a legitimate 2 way guy outside of a few seasons. The first half of Stevens career saw him be that. Even into his NJ days, prior to the work stoppage.

Johnson is a significant PIM risk as a primary PK'er. Potvin is a greater risk than Harvey.

Lastly, as overpass showed, McCrimmon simply wasn't a big (certainly by ATD standards) PK guy and yet you have him on your top unit. I'm not sure I buy that as a quality play. Potvin logged much more duty down a man and the figures suggest he was excellent at it. McC feels more like a legitimate 2nd team chess piece based on real world data.
 
Market value fluctuates significantly w/active players. I don't think we can ever use that as a legitimate barometer for historical ATD value. It's often chided to be frank.

If we're judging the record, the analytics, the historical value of each player, there is very, very little separating McCrimmon and McDonagh.

+/- glory by McC canceled out by McD.

The latter gives you a more robust defensive game because you can actually deploy him w/big minutes on the kill. McCrimmon, historically didn't do that.

PIM's are just not that much of an issue for Sunnyvale. I already highlighted those earlier in the thread, but will repost, especially considering we're swapping out Morrow for Harmon.

Sunnyvale:
Stevens:
RS - 140/82
PO - 141/82

Pratt:
RS - 78/82
PO - 120/82

Cleghorn (NHL only)
RS - 172/82
PO - 102/82

Harvey:
RS - 90/82
PO - 91/82

Harmon:
RS - 60/82
PO - 57/82

McDonagh:
RS - 30/82
PO - 43/82

Montreal:
McCrimmon
RS - 95/82
PO - 124/82

Potvin -
RS - 105/82
PO - 112/82

McAvoy:
RS - 70/82
PO - 87/82

Neilson:
RS - 72/82
PO - 77/82

Clapper:
RS - 44/82
PO - 50/82

Moose Johnson:
Top-6 in League PIM Five Times (2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 6th)

He had 51 PIM in 19 SC challenge games. 2.68 PIM/G. Compare that to the 515 PIM he had in 260 regular season games between the ECAHA, NHA, and PCHA. That's 1.98 PIM/G.

Johnson
View attachment 1255276

I see Cleghorn had 89 PIM in 41 combined playoff/SCF games. That's 2.17 PIM/G. 803 PIMs in 374 regular season games across all leagues. 2.14 PIM/G

Cleghorn
View attachment 1255278

Pratt is the only defender on Sunnyvale that sees his PIM average rise significantly from RS to PO. McCrimmon's figures jump a lot. Potvin's creep up more than Harvey. McAvoy's go the wrong way. Even Clapper does as well, though as you said, is a cleaner player than you usually get w/that kind of physicality.

But let's not ignore the figures above, which clearly don't paint this as some sort of battle between a squeaky clean roster and a band full of psychos.

Scott Stevens 2 way ability exists even if his style of play will resemble the NJ version. He doesn't automatically lose the capability/potential. It's not like we're taking only portions of a player's career and tossing the rest aside. McCrimmon played through the richest offensive era in hockey history and never resembled a legitimate 2 way guy outside of a few seasons. The first half of Stevens career saw him be that. Even into his NJ days, prior to the work stoppage.

Johnson is a significant PIM risk as a primary PK'er. Potvin is a greater risk than Harvey.

Lastly, as overpass showed, McCrimmon simply wasn't a big (certainly by ATD standards) PK guy and yet you have him on your top unit. I'm not sure I buy that as a quality play. Potvin logged much more duty down a man and the figures suggest he was excellent at it. McC feels more like a legitimate 2nd team chess piece based on real world data.
These are big PIMs and you just said they werent:
Stevens:
RS - 140/82
PO - 141/82

Cleghorn (NHL only)
RS - 172/82
PO - 102/82

Pratt:
RS - 78/82
PO - 120/82

This means Arbour won’t play Pratt (along with his defensive issues) and that will further tax your Big 3.

McDonagh hasn’t exactly appreciated since he won those Cups with Tampa so he hasn’t climbed that ladder really. His advanced stats are below avg as well.

Not sure he’s better than McAvoy at this point. McAvoy absolutely has the stronger modern analytics case.

Regular Season (TOI-weighted)

Charlie McAvoy
  • CF%: 53.26
  • GF%: 58.88
  • xGF%: 55.11
  • SCF%: 54.35
  • HDCF%: 54.36

Ryan McDonagh
  • CF%: 49.23
  • GF%: 55.91
  • xGF%: 51.93
  • SCF%: 50.54
  • HDCF%: 53.76

Playoffs (TOI-weighted)

McAvoy
  • CF%: 51.48
  • GF%: 48.12
  • xGF%: 52.33

McDonagh
  • CF%: 48.88
  • GF%: 52.33
  • xGF%: 49.57

Not arguing McAvoy > McDonagh all-time.

But:
McAvoy’s impact metrics are elite and substantially stronger than McDonagh’s possession profile.

That’s a legitimate statement based on the data.

McAvoy is one of the strongest modern impact defensemen in the league by possession and expected-goal metrics. While McDonagh’s resume is longer and stronger historically, Sunnyvale’s third-pair support does not include a player with McAvoy’s level of modern territorial impact.
 
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These are big PIMs and you just said they werent:
Stevens:
RS - 140/82
PO - 141/82

Cleghorn (NHL only)
RS - 172/82
PO - 102/82

Pratt:
RS - 78/82
PO - 120/82

This means Arbour won’t play Pratt (along with his defensive issues) and that will further tax your Big 3.

McDonagh hasn’t exactly appreciated since he won those Cups with Tampa so he hasn’t climbed that ladder really. His advanced stats are below avg as well.

Not sure he’s better than McAvoy at this point.

Compared to Johnson (220/82), McCrimmon (124/82), Potvin (112/82)? 3 of your top 4 guys. Cleghorn's playoff PIM totals (2.17/G pr 178/82) are significantly less than Johnson's (2.68/G). I posted the visuals w/the last post.

So no, they aren't. That's literally a historical fact when you line up the 3 guys you quoted above and the 3 I just mentioned. Those 3 guys you highlighted won 8 combined titles with multiple Conn Smythe worry performances.

As I've said all along, Sunnyvale will see the box a few more times in this (and most series) but the idea that there will be some great disparity in PP chances defies the actual stats and historical precedent that playoff hockey sees fewer calls against and more evenly called games. Beyond that, we'll get into the special teams soon enough and why/how a lot of thought went into making sure the PK top end/depth was up to snuff given the play style of the Shithawks.

Our big 3 is able to handle more minutes than yours. Harvey, Cleghorn, Stevens > Potvin, Clapper, Johnson in terms of projectable minutes in an ATD setting.

When McAvoy has a playoff run where he's not getting spun around for large portions, I'll give that last sentence some credence. ;)

McDonagh doesn't need to add anything else to his resume. He's got 6, top 15 Norris finishes despite never being a big point guy. Historically great at shot blocking, and manning a top PK unit w/historically great individual/team results. Some of the new age fancy stats say he's below average. Others say he's elite. I know his GF/GA is historically great, especially in the modern era. And lastly, was more than just some depth passenger on back to back Cup winners.

According to the HoH section, those involved in the D project thought more of McDonagh than both Neilson and McAvoy btw, considering how discussion/evals unfolded and McDonagh at least appearing on the final ballot.

Pratt (and others) gets penalized too much for peaking over the war years, considering Earl Seibert was around, Butch Bouchard. Kenny Reardon. Clapper was on his last legs. It wasn't as if the Hart trophy or other praise/awards were all achieved over a league full of minor league replacement talent. Winning a Hart trumps anything, any of the other 3 guys on either side did. Easily. He was a big part of a pair of Cup winners as well.
 
Compared to Johnson (220/82), McCrimmon (124/82), Potvin (112/82)? 3 of your top 4 guys. Cleghorn's playoff PIM totals (2.17/G pr 178/82) are significantly less than Johnson's (2.68/G). I posted the visuals w/the last post.

So no, they aren't. That's literally a historical fact when you line up the 3 guys you quoted above and the 3 I just mentioned. Those 3 guys you highlighted won 8 combined titles with multiple Conn Smythe worry performances.

As I've said all along, Sunnyvale will see the box a few more times in this (and most series) but the idea that there will be some great disparity in PP chances defies the actual stats and historical precedent that playoff hockey sees fewer calls against and more evenly called games. Beyond that, we'll get into the special teams soon enough and why/how a lot of thought went into making sure the PK top end/depth was up to snuff given the play style of the Shithawks.

Our big 3 is able to handle more minutes than yours. Harvey, Cleghorn, Stevens > Potvin, Clapper, Johnson in terms of projectable minutes in an ATD setting.

When McAvoy has a playoff run where he's not getting spun around for large portions, I'll give that last sentence some credence. ;)

McDonagh doesn't need to add anything else to his resume. He's got 6, top 15 Norris finishes despite never being a big point guy. Historically great at shot blocking, and manning a top PK unit w/historically great individual/team results. Some of the new age fancy stats say he's below average. Others say he's elite. I know his GF/GA is historically great, especially in the modern era. And lastly, was more than just some depth passenger on back to back Cup winners.

According to the HoH section, those involved in the D project thought more of McDonagh than both Neilson and McAvoy btw, considering how discussion/evals unfolded and McDonagh at least appearing on the final ballot.

Pratt (and others) gets penalized too much for peaking over the war years, considering Earl Seibert was around, Butch Bouchard. Kenny Reardon. Clapper was on his last legs. It wasn't as if the Hart trophy or other praise/awards were all achieved over a league full of minor league replacement talent. Winning a Hart trumps anything, any of the other 3 guys on either side did. Easily. He was a big part of a pair of Cup winners as well.
That’s Johnson’s regular season PIMs, his playoff PIMs go way down. You conflated them there. We need a chart.

Stevens isn’t a two-way in ATD. You have to pick which Stevens you want the reckless offensive guy or the stay home guy. That’s always been true in ATD. He was never a two-way.

I don’t know what their criteria was for McDonagh over McAvoy but the numbers don’t show it and he’s been on strong teams. I don’t know. Have to look at zone starts. Advanced stats are not to be brushed off despite what the OG say. Look at Carolina’s GM- started as a fancy stat guy. Toe kept a book of stats too.

Pratt has his Hart but he’s still stapled to the bench by Arbour.

Your Big 3 needs to handle more minutes because of my size, your PIMs, and your third pairing. That’s why I call it a wash but I have to look closer later at your new post so I can back up my comments properly.
 
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I still think there is a strong case to be made that the two groups overall are a wash.

Using the recent Top 80 defenseman project and 5Y draft market:

S-Doug Harvey — #2
Denis Potvin — #6
S-Sprague Cleghorn — #14
S-Scott Stevens — #22
Dit Clapper — #24
Moose Johnson — #44
Brad McCrimmon — 222 avg 5Y

S-Ryan McDonagh473 avg 5Y (36 dmen below McCrimmon, the same aggregate advantage between our Big 3’s combined and I prefer my third pair for this matchup. Overall my lower PIM’s and better skating make this a wash).

• The two Big 3s are relatively close historically:
  • Harvey #2 vs Potvin #6
  • Stevens #22 vs Clapper #24
  • Cleghorn #14 vs Moose #44
• The McCrimmon/McDonagh gap is much larger than Sunnyvale acknowledges:
  • McCrimmon: 222 avg 5Y
  • McDonagh: 473 avg 5Y
  • 36 defensemen separate them in recent ATD valuation.
• Both of Montreal’s top pairs are supported by elite two-way centers with size:
  • Barkov
  • Kopitar
This support structure matters when evaluating defensive groups, not just defensemen in isolation.


• McCrimmon is being evaluated differently than McDonagh.
  • McDonagh’s case is largely role, fit, PK value and matchup utility.
  • McCrimmon’s historical value was also role-based: stabilizing elite offensive partners (Bourque, Howe, Team Canada).
If role value counts for McDonagh, it should count for McCrimmon.


• Montreal is built on depth and flexibility.
  • Moose can move up.
  • Clapper can play multiple roles.
  • Three of Montreal’s top four can play either side.
  • The group is not dependent on one fixed pairing.
• My Big 3 will carry the heavy minutes.
  • McCrimmon and McAvoy are support pieces.
  • They provide relief minutes and matchup flexibility.
  • Sunnyvale’s reliance on its Big 3 is greater and they will have added penalty burdens already on top of having to deal with all the size in my lineup which will wear them down.
  • And if Pratt is stapled to the bench by Arbour, they will have to pick up even more minutes.

• McAvoy is an elite modern impact defenseman by advanced metrics.
  • Harmon does not bring that level of modern defensive impact.

Stevens is an elite defensive defenseman, but:
  • He should not automatically be treated as a full two-way defenseman unless we are specifically emphasizing his Capitals years.

• Style matters.
  • Clapper and Moose both skate well.
  • Both bring major size, elite defense and are both over 6-4, 225 adjusted.
  • Both fit a territorial, cycle, and matchup game.

Penalty profile favors Montreal.
  • Sunnyvale carries substantially more penalty risk throughout the lineup.
  • Pratt’s penalty history is particularly concerning. Combined with his poor defense, he would likely be stapled to the bench by Arbor, who would have absolutely hated him.
  • Additional PK burden increases the workload on Sunnyvale’s top defensemen.
  • Clapper played a rough game but with only 0.50 PIMs.
One thing I think gets lost in these apples-to-apples comparisons is that Clapper was not a traditional stay-at-home defenseman. If Harvey is being credited for bringing offensive elements to the position before they became common, then Clapper deserves similar credit. He was an star forward who successfully transitioned to defense, won a Hart Trophy there, and was arguably the best defenseman in hockey at his peak. Harvey was the greater offensive defenseman, but Clapper was far more than a defensive specialist.


Overall Conclusion:

Sunnyvale has the best individual defensive pair.

Montreal has the stronger second pair, cleaner penalty profile, greater flexibility, better center support, and significantly more depth behind its Big 3.



Result: Defensive groups are approximately a wash.


1. Where guys are drafted should have next to no influence on the value of a player. I want to hit on that again. Especially when you're talking about the middle to latter portions of the draft and specifically examining active guys.

2. Relatively? Maybe? Harvey edges Potvin. My #2 in terms of minutes will be Cleghorn (14) and he's a half step above your #2 Clapper (24). Then Stevens (22) is a clear tier above Johnson (44). Our #3's by projected minutes.

3. Kopitar and Barkov have size and are certainly elite defensively. They've never had to endure a real life series against a 1-2 physical punch like Lalonde/Sittler. As good as they are defensively, they aren't taking the 1 spot on the podium in a series with Bergeron on the other side. And they surely, have never had to endure staring at a defensive trio of Harvey, Cleghorn, and Stevens.

4. McDonagh helped stabilize an elite partner (Hedman) in Tampa, and did it for back to back title winners! I'll continue to show how looking at McCrimmon, in so many ways, is like looking at McDonagh in a mirror.

5. I highlighted in the previous series how flexible Sunnyvale is. Versatility is everywhere in Sunnyvale's F group. Arbour has numerous configurations at his disposal from a tactical standpoint. Or if an injury occurs.

Malone played C/LW
Pitre - RW/D
Morris - RW/C
Tkachuk - RW/LW
Bourne - LW/C
Mackell - LW/C

6. Modern territorial impact is only known because he have the tech/algorithms to chop up a bunch of numbers that wasn't around for the vast majority of the sport.

7. Stevens proved he could play a 2 way game for a decade. That's not his focus here, but the historical reality is that he COULD do it, even during his earliest days in NJ.

8. Oh absolutely. I love Clapper. I've argued he had similarities to Harvey when I've drafted him in the past. I think of him as a true 2 way, #1 (lower end in a draft this size). But neither his peak or longevity as a defensemen comes anywhere near Harvey, especially in the playoffs. Also, Clapper never won a Hart (was runner up to Cowley in 1941).
 
1. Where guys are drafted should have next to no influence on the value of a player. I want to hit on that again. Especially when you're talking about the middle to latter portions of the draft and specifically examining active guys.

2. Relatively? Maybe? Harvey edges Potvin. My #2 in terms of minutes will be Cleghorn (14) and he's a half step above your #2 Clapper (24). Then Stevens (22) is a clear tier above Johnson (44). Our #3's by projected minutes.

3. Kopitar and Barkov have size and are certainly elite defensively. They've never had to endure a real life series against a 1-2 physical punch like Lalonde/Sittler. As good as they are defensively, they aren't taking the 1 spot on the podium in a series with Bergeron on the other side. And they surely, have never had to endure staring at a defensive trio of Harvey, Cleghorn, and Stevens.

4. McDonagh helped stabilize an elite partner (Hedman) in Tampa, and did it for back to back title winners! I'll continue to show how looking at McCrimmon, in so many ways, is like looking at McDonagh in a mirror.

5. I highlighted in the previous series how flexible Sunnyvale is. Versatility is everywhere in Sunnyvale's F group. Arbour has numerous configurations at his disposal from a tactical standpoint. Or if an injury occurs.

Malone played C/LW
Pitre - RW/D
Morris - RW/C
Tkachuk - RW/LW
Bourne - LW/C
Mackell - LW/C

6. Modern territorial impact is only known because he have the tech/algorithms to chop up a bunch of numbers that wasn't around for the vast majority of the sport.

7. Stevens proved he could play a 2 way game for a decade. That's not his focus here, but the historical reality is that he COULD do it, even during his earliest days in NJ.

8. Oh absolutely. I love Clapper. I've argued he had similarities to Harvey when I've drafted him in the past. I think of him as a true 2 way, #1 (lower end in a draft this size). But neither his peak or longevity as a defensemen comes anywhere near Harvey, especially in the playoffs. Also, Clapper never won a Hart (was runner up to Cowley in 1941).
Stevens isn’t a two-way no matter how often you say it. Unless I am overruled by someone on that it’s my understanding that’s always been the case here.

You are free to lengthen his leash and have Harvey cover for him and see what the voters think tho.

McAvoy doesn’t have a Hedman to play next to and his numbers are better than McD’s anyway. McDonagh strongest modern case is as Hedman’s defensive partner. McAvoy doesn’t get that kind of shelter or boost from a Hedman-level partner, and his territorial numbers are still better. So if we’re crediting McDonagh’s modern role, McAvoy’s independent impact deserves credit too.



This is not an argument—-> Modern territorial impact is only known because he have the tech/algorithms to chop up a bunch of numbers that wasn't around for the vast majority of the sport.

Both McDonagh and McAvoy have measurable advanced stats. McDonagh might be undervalued in ATD tho I’ll give you that. But then so is McAvoy. McDonagh has also been on loaded teams so those Norris finishes got a push and in those were reliable we wouldn’t need to rank dmen in ATD. The advanced stats don’t bear it out - have to check zone starts and quality of teammate. McDonagh wasn’t that great in this year’s playoffs either.

McAvoy was playing through serious injuries the last couple years and still put up solid numbers. If he played in the 4 Nations, Canada might not have won anything last year.
 
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Stevens isn’t a two-way no matter how often you say it. Unless I am overruled by someone on that it’s my understanding that’s always been the case here.

You are free to lengthen his leash and have Harvey cover for him and see what the voters think tho.

This is not an argument—-> Modern territorial impact is only known because he have the tech/algorithms to chop up a bunch of numbers that wasn't around for the vast majority of the sport.

Both McDonagh and McAvoy have measurable advanced stats.

I'm not saying that Stevens is. I'm merely stating that historically, he showed an ability to be that kind of player and that ability doesn't magically disappear because he's being deployed as he was in the DPE in NJ. Right. It's not like that talent up and vanished.

Where that is applicable are the moments when Montreal presses his way. Puts more pucks towards him. I'm more confident that Stevens CAN handle that kind of pressure because of what he showed the first 10 years in the league. Even in NJ, he never struck me as a guy teams targeted as a liability.

McCrimmon doesn't have the historical stats or visual evidence of being a consistent puck mover and when you're talking about going up against the likes of Gainey, Tkachuk, Lalonde, Sittler, speedsters like Pitre, Bourne, Mackell (and Gainey), I think posses more of a red flag than Stevens does in this element of the game.

Of course we can compare McDonagh and McAvoy. My point was that it doesn't apply to the vast majority of my roster and even some of yours. The data just doesn't go back far enough.

As far as McDonagh vs McAvoy, the latter is a better possession player. I won't argue that, though the data shows McDonagh being the guy you want on the ice if you're hunting fewer goals against and in a stabilizing role, that's precisely what I'm after with him next to a talent like Cleghorn.
 
I'm not saying that Stevens is. I'm merely stating that historically, he showed an ability to be that kind of player and that ability doesn't magically disappear because he's being deployed as he was in the DPE in NJ. Right. It's not like that talent up and vanished.

Where that is applicable are the moments when Montreal presses his way. Puts more pucks towards him. I'm more confident that Stevens CAN handle that kind of pressure because of what he showed the first 10 years in the league. Even in NJ, he never struck me as a guy teams targeted as a liability.

McCrimmon doesn't have the historical stats or visual evidence of being a consistent puck mover and when you're talking about going up against the likes of Gainey, Tkachuk, Lalonde, Sittler, speedsters like Pitre, Bourne, Mackell (and Gainey), I think posses more of a red flag than Stevens does in this element of the game.

Of course we can compare McDonagh and McAvoy. My point was that it doesn't apply to the vast majority of my roster and even some of yours. The data just doesn't go back far enough.

As far as McDonagh vs McAvoy, the latter is a better possession player. I won't argue that, though the data shows McDonagh being the guy you want on the ice if you're hunting fewer goals against and in a stabilizing role, that's precisely what I'm after with him next to a talent like Cleghorn.
Stevens turned the puck over as an offensive dman and was reckless. He was a failed two way if anything. He couldn’t do both and focused on what he was best at midway through his career… something he would not be allowed to do today because of the rules! Hehehe

Same for Cleghorn and Pratt. If anything their penalty minutes should be adjusted upwards and maybe jail time for Cleghorn if he’s not careful.
 
BTW, this has been a pleasure @tinyzombies ! It's been a good while since I've been engaged in discussion this robust.

Where are the jobs that allow you to do this stuff all day/night long and get paid for it!?!

Stevens turned the puck over as an offensive dman and was reckless. He was a failed two way if anything. He couldn’t do both and focused on what he was best at midway through his career… something he would not be allowed to do today because of the rules! Hehehe

Same for Cleghorn and Pratt. If anything that penalty minutes should be adjusted upwards.

Of course, taking risk = increased turnovers. Unless you're Doug Harvey haha!

But seriously, the light I'm shining on Stevens is that the puck skills, the ability in and of itself, exists, regardless of the style. If he gets extra pucks thrown his way by your boys, I'm confident in his ability to get out of the situation/zone with the right decision more often than not.

No doubt, a lot of the hits Stevens threw 25-35 years ago wouldn't pass legality in today's game but anyone can pull up the big highlight videos and see A LOT of crystal clean, massive thumps where he squared a guy up perfectly, legal in over 100 years worth of hockey. Kariya was the one I really didn't like, just because it was well after Paul had gotten rid of the puck. So yeah, if we're only viewing Stevens through the lens of post lockout hockey, he looks like a barbarian. But from 1890 through the early 2000's, Stevens was a largely legal hitter and physical intimidator.
 
That’s Johnson’s regular season PIMs, his playoff PIMs go way down. You conflated them there. We need a chart.

Actually, no, from what I gathered from Wiki the figures and pictures I posted show, clearly the regular season and postseason PIM totals for both Cleghorn and Johnson.

Moose Johnson career PIMs:
1781691878791.png


Johnson played 260 (40+29+191) professional level games between the ECAHA, NHA, and PCHA.
He recorded 451 PIM's (153+107+255) in those 260 games.
451/260 = 1.73 PIM/G (regular season)

Johnson played in 19 Stanley Cup Challenge games
He recorded 51 PIM in those 19 games.
51/19 = 2.68 PIM/G (playoffs)

Sprague Cleghorn career PIMs:


1781692176857.png


Cleghorn played in 374 professional level games between the NHA/NHL.
He recorded 803 PIMs (265+538) in those 374 games.
803/374 = 2.15 PIM/G (regular season)

Cleghorn played in 41 playoff/SCF games (2+21+18)
He recorded 89 PIM (17+26+46) in those 41 games
89/41 = 2.17 PIM/G (playoffs)

Cleghorn maintains his 1 trip to the box per game pace from the regular season to playoffs. So he's steadier than Moose Johnson who drastically shoots up from 1.73 to 2.68 PIM/G once the calendar turns over to playoff hockey.
 
BTW, this has been a pleasure @tinyzombies ! It's been a good while since I've been engaged in discussion this robust.

Where are the jobs that allow you to do this stuff all day/night long and get paid for it!?!



Of course, taking risk = increased turnovers. Unless you're Doug Harvey haha!

But seriously, the light I'm shining on Stevens is that the puck skills, the ability in and of itself, exists, regardless of the style. If he gets extra pucks thrown his way by your boys, I'm confident in his ability to get out of the situation/zone with the right decision more often than not.

No doubt, a lot of the hits Stevens threw 25-35 years ago wouldn't pass legality in today's game but anyone can pull up the big highlight videos and see A LOT of crystal clean, massive thumps where he squared a guy up perfectly, legal in over 100 years worth of hockey. Kariya was the one I really didn't like, just because it was well after Paul had gotten rid of the puck. So yeah, if we're only viewing Stevens through the lens of post lockout hockey, he looks like a barbarian. But from 1890 through the early 2000's, Stevens was a largely legal hitter and physical intimidator.
Agree, this has been great and I've learned a lot about these players by reading your research. It's going to take me a bit to answer, if I can. I don't want to just fling my feels out there without backup. More interested in the truth than "winning". Stay tuned!
 
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Series Overiew: Goaltenders

Sunnyvale:
Georges Vezina (10)
Hap Holmes (32)

vs

Montreal
Ken Dryden (8)
Rogie Vachon (39)

( ) = Placement on HoH Top 60 Goaltenders of All-Time Project


Starters - Slight Edge Montreal
I'll start off by saying having studied extensively Veinza, and had the pleasure of reading through some incredible analysis by Jiggly, among others during the most recent G project, Vezina is someone I'm probably higher on that most. To me, he was pretty clearly the best G of his era (see below) and largely a good to dominant G in the playoffs. He had peak (contemporary praise+ statistical dominance) coupled with incredible stamina and longevity (think Glenn Hall or Marty Brodeur), starting every Montreal Canadian game from 1910 through 1925. 328 regular season+39 more in the playoffs.

To me, he's on the Dryden/Tretiak tier w/a floor of 10th all time. With that being said, I'm going with the floor of 10th because that's where he was placed on the top G project so it represents a better consensus than the guy who's repping him in this matchup. Ultimately, the very slight edge for Montreal is based on the fact, at present, more people think he's worthy of a higher ranking, head to head, all time.

Georges Vezina:

Awards and Accomplishments:
Inaugural Member of the Hockey Hall of Fame
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1916, 1924)
6 x Stanley Cup Finalist (1914, 1916, 1917, 1919, 1924, 1925)
5 x NHA Champion (1916, 1917, 1919, 1924, 1925)
6 x Retro Vezina Winner (1911, 1912, 1914, 1918, 1924, 1925)
Ultimate Hockey's "Best Goaltender" of the 1910s.

Statistical Accomplishments:
Goals Against Average
- 1st(1911), 1st(1912), 1st(1914), 1st(1918), 1st(1924), 1st(1925), 2nd(1913), 2nd(1915), 2nd(1916), 2nd(1917), 2nd(1919), 2nd(1922), 2nd(1923)
Consolidated GAA - 1st(1911), 1st(1912), 1st(1914), 1st(1924), 1st(1925), 2nd(1918), 3rd(1916), 3rd(1917), 3rd(1922), 3rd(1923)

Playoff Results:
1914 - lost cup challenge to Toronto and Hap Holmes
1916 - won cup challenge over Portland and Tom Murray
1917 - won play-off series over Ottawa and Clint Benedict
1917 - lost cup challenge to Vancouver and Hugh Lehman
1918 - lost play-off series to Toronto and Hap Holmes
1919 - cup challenge cancelled after 2-2-1 due to flu epidemic vs Seattle and Hap Holmes
1923 - lost play-off series to Ottawa and Clint Benedict
1924 - won play-off series over Ottawa and Clint Benedict
1924 - won cup challenge over Calgary and Charlie Reid
1925 - won play-off series over Toronto and John Ross Roach
1925 - lost cup challenge to Victoria and Hap Holmes

Ken Dryden:

Awards and Achievements:

6 x Stanley Cup Champion (1971, 1973, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979)
Conn Smythe Trophy (1971)
5 x Vezina Trophy Winner (1973, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979)
5 x First Team All-Star (1973, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979)
Second Team All-Star (1972)
Hart - 2nd(1972), 4th(1973), 4th(1976), 10th(1978)
All-Star - 1st(1973), 1st(1976), 1st(1977), 1st(1978), 1st(1979), 2nd(1972), 4th(1974)

Statistical Accomplishments:
Save Percentage - 1st(1973), 1st(1977), 1st(1978), 2nd(1976), 2nd(1979), 3rd(1972), 7th(1975)
Goals Against Average - 1st(1973), 1st(1976), 1st(1978), 1st(1979), 2nd(1977), 4th(1972), 5th(1975)

1976 Coaches' Poll
1st Best Goalie
4th Player to build a team around

1979 Coaches' Poll
1st Best Goalie

1972 NHL Player Poll.... 1st all-star
1976 NHL Player Poll.... 1st all-star
1979 NHL Player Poll.... 1st all-star

Months before Vezina became ill, a panel of hockey experts voted him the best goaltender of all-time:

In 1925, MacLean's magazine asked Charlie H. Good, the Sporting Editor for the Toronto Daily News until that paper folded in 1919, to compile All-Time All-Star teams for their March 15, 1925 edition of the magazine. Good called upon his friends in the hockey world to help him with the list. The list of participants reads like a who's-who of the early hockey world:

Charles H. Good, W. A. Hewitt, Lester Patrick, J.F. Ahern, Tommy Gorman, W. J. Morrison, Lou Marsh, Bruce Boreham, K.G. H. McConnell, Roy Halpin, Ross Mackay, Harry Scott, O. F. Young, Art Ross, Frank Shaughnessey, James T. Sutherland, Bill Tackabery, Basil O'Meara, Ed. Baker, "Dusty" Rhodes, Walter McMullin, E. W.Ferguson, Joe Kincaid, and W. A. Boys, M.P.

The selected Vezina 1st Team All-Time-All-Star goalie. Percy LeSueur (of the previous generation) was 2nd team. Vezina's contemporaries Clint Benedict and Hugh Lehman were tied for 3rd Team

The March 17, 1925 Morning Leader report on MacLean's 1st Team makes one suspect that extra credit was given to deceased players. Noteably, Vezina, Cleghorn, and Nighbor were the only still-living players on the 1st Team:
Number One Team- Goal, Georges Vezina; defence, Sprague Cleghorn and Hod Stuart (deceased); center, Frank Nighbor; right wing, Allan, Scotty Davidson; left wing, Tommy Phillips (deceased)"

This timing is important because Vezina would not start to show signs of illness until the following October, was not diagnosed with tuberculosis until Nov 28, 1925, and did not die until March 26, 1926 (source = wikipedia).

So the MacLean's All-Time All-Star list is entirely untainted by Vezina's early death.

Frank Boucher said:
Vézina was a pale, narrow-featured fellow, almost frail-looking, yet remarkably good with his stick. He'd pick off more shots with it than he did with his glove. He stood upright in the net and scarcely ever left his feet; he simply played all his shots in a standing position. He always wore a toque—a small, knitted hat with no brim in Montreal colours – bleu, blanc et rouge. I also remember him as the coolest man I ever saw, absolutely imperturbable.
Jack Adam said:
When you talk about goaltenders, you have to start with Georges Vezina. By an almost unanimous vote of hockey people, he was the greatest the game has ever had. I remember him fairly well.

In 1918 when I broke into the National League with Toronto, Vezina was with Les Canadians. He was near the end of his career, but was still a marvel in the nets, as I found out the first time I skated in on him.

I thought I had him beat, I thought I had a cinch goal, but he had figured exactly what I was going to do, and brushed aside the shot, as easily as you'd strike a match.
Jack Adams said:
Vezina was a big fellow... I'd say he was about five feet 11 inches tall, without his skates on and he looked even taller in uniform because he always wore a red and blue toque. He had big hands and he used an exceptionally long stick.
...
He played a stand-up game, sliding from post to post, making save that seemed impossible by outguessing the puck carriers.

That was his strong point. Like all great goalers, he studied the styles of every forward in the league. He could sense what one of them would do under a given set of circumstances and was usually prepared. He guess wrong sometimes, of course, but not often.

...
I played against Vezina for three or four years. Many times he broke my heart by turning back what looked like a certain score. He was a real master. He had perfect co-ordination and an uncanny instinct.

Jiggly post regarding his in depth study of every Vezina playoff game.

View attachment 1244443

There are couple of areas where Vezina stands out, based on contemporary praise, that Dryden did not, thanks to video evidence.

Skating, puck retrieval/handling, and lateral mobility.

Part of the equation in evading a heavy forechecking system is having a G who is comfortable leaving his crease, getting the puck on his stick and out quickly to reputable movers at D and occasionally F's. Vezina was an uncommon genius at that part of the game in the 1910's/early 20's. It was specifically singled out multiple times.

The opposition is going to dump quite a bit and more than a few times, the G is the one playing those pucks. Comparatively speaking, Vezina is a clear step up from someone like Dryden who never seemed like a natural at having the puck on his stick.

That's another nuance that directly counters the MO of Montreal, limiting tactical targets for them. Ironically, it's going to be tougher for Montreal's own G/D to break the pressure of the likes of Lalonde, Sittler, Hay, Gainey, Tkachuk, Bourne, Mackell specifically IMO.

Dryden wasn't exactly the most agile G either. Getting him moving east-west is a recipe for success and having a passing/vision genius like Harvey on the back end is a great start. Sunnyvale possess several elite shooters that produce high shot volumes and results, in a variety of ways. Numerous guys who lived to muck it in the high traffic areas and create chaos around the net. Speed coming off the flanks, cutting across the grain.

Dryden played behind a significantly better team (especially defensively) in real life, than anything Vezina had in Montreal in the 1910's/early 20's. Lafleur, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Gainey, Lemaire, Jarvis. etc.

Despite the disparity in talent around each player, Vezina was still best in class over a longer period of time. Now Vezina has multiple defensive juggernauts in front of him (Harvey, Stevens, Bergeron, Gainey, IMHO the 4 best defensive presences in the entire series), along with numerous other strong checking/defensive types. Vezina was usually somewhere between good and downright MVP level in the postseason, winning a pair of titles and playing in 6 finals overall. Jiggly outlined that in the G project. A complete stinker was pretty rare, even in losses. And stinkers happen to them all, Dryden included (watch the Summit Series for starters).

The overall Cup wins/losses is much more to do about the teams these guys played behind in real life than any significant gap in actual postseason performance. I've got zero issue with Dryden being looked at as the superior playoff or G in general. Won a Smythe as a rookie, then backstopped a 4-peat with some scintillating efforts during multiple runs. He came in as the 4th G in the Top 40 Postseason Performers project and that's another finish I have zero issue with. Make no mistake, read up on Vezina and you'll come away very impressed, keeping the gap in the playoff/overall sense very small.

At the end of the day, I think Montreal has a slight edge between the starters. In time, I can see Vezina rising to a more consensus ranking on a tier w/Dryden and Tretiak (vs starting the next one), for the reasons I've outlined, namely, Vezina being the best G of an era that is bigger than any other in the history of the sport (06 included). Putting someone like that on the level of a peer who was say 3rd best of their own generation, is a tough sell for me.

Here are the eras and top G in each, IMHO.

Pre-Consolidation (1880's-1926) - Georges Vezina
Consolidation to 06 (1927-1942) - Charlie Gardiner
06 (1942 to 1967) - Jacques Plante/Terry Sawchuk
Post Expansion (1967 to 2004) - Patrick Roy/Dom Hasek
Post Lockout/Salary Cap (2005-present) - Henrik Lundqvist/Andrei Vasilevskiy (I'd take the latter at this point)

Backups: Slight Edge Sunnyvale
Read up on both guys and I think it's pretty clear, especially in the postseason, you'll want Holmes who backstopped 7 league winners and 4 SC champions (on 4 different teams, a record equaled by only one other skater in league history). His longevity as both a 2nd tier regular season G and playoff ringer is more robust than Vachon who was a full time starter for 1 Cup winner and played most of his career w/the expansion Kings.

A more modern comparison to Holmes would be Turk Broda who took his game up multiple notches in the playoffs for the dynasty Leafs of the 40's, while he was often behind the likes of Brimsek and Durnan in the regular season pecking order.

Goaltenders Overall - Slight Edge Montreal
Given the reserves will almost surely not see the ice, unless there is an injury, you still land on a slight edge for the Victorias here. I think the consensus at present is Dryden being a half step above Vezina, even though only 1 player separates them on a consensus all time ranking (Brimsek). It's a close call, though one I feel is historically accurate in calling for Montreal in this situation.
 
I literally just passed the Cleghorns old house in Westmount, Montreal.

You just proved that moose still takes penalties in the playoffs, but you also undercut your own Claghorn penalty reduction story because he still takes a lot of penalties in the playoffs.
IMG_0169.jpeg



I would like to move on to discuss the discrepancies between the two teams offense. More specifically where will your goals come from?
 
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I literally just passed the Cleghorns old house in Westmount, Montreal.

You just proved that moose still takes penalties in the playoffs, but you also undercut your own Claghorn penalty reduction story because he still takes a lot of penalties in the playoffs.
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I would like to move on to discuss the discrepancies between the two teams offense. More specifically where will your goals come from?

That's so cool! It must be hockey paradise (at least NA) to be within driving distance of so many historic sites and homes. A cross country trek of Canada is very high on the to do list, in part because I want to see those special hockey landmarks. Both coasts. I often wonder how crazy all the past hockey legends would think our band of ATD'ers and HoH'ers haha. What would they think of our research and teams?

1. My point in breaking down the PIM totals is to show that while Sunnyvale will likely be penalized a bit more over the course of a series, it's not the chasm people may be envision when you see Lalonde, Cleghorn, Stevens.

Our top player (Harvey) and D is penalized less than yours (Potvin).
Cleghorn is highly penalized, historically. So is Moose Johnson. Even more so, factually when looking at the postseason.
Montreal sees ALL 6 of their defensemen increase in PIMs from the regular season to post.

We're uniquely built to withstand playing the aggressive, physical brand of hockey. Bergeron, Gainey, Bourne and Mackell are all low PIM players. That makes up a sensational group of PK forwards. It'll be pretty rare we're without one of those 4. The D is flush with great to legendary PK'ers, on an all time scale. If Harvey would go off, you can still roll out Stevens-Cleghorn as your top unit. Stevens sitting? Harvey-Cleghorn. If Sprague is cooling down, you're still getting Stevens-Harvey and then McDonagh, one of the best PK'ers of the last 15 years, on a 2nd unit.

2. Where are my goals coming from?

I think that question is more applicable to your team considering the historical offensive output of both teams and then factor in which team has a better collection of defensive/checking legends/depth in those departments. Basically which F group is up against it more?

With that being said, Lalonde and Malone are elite. Here are the numbers again. Pitre sort of gets lost in the shuffle but was a great goal getter himself.

*Lalonde - 1st(1908), 1st(1910), 1st(1916), 2nd(1912), 2nd(1919), 2nd(1920), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1921), 5th(1913), 5th(1918), 6th(1911), 7th(1917), 10th(1914)

*Malone - 1st(1913), 1st(1918), 1st(1920), 2nd(1916), 2nd(1917), 4th(1921), 5th(1922), 7th(1914), 10th(1912)

*Pitre - 1st(1906), 3rd(1912), 3rd(1915), 3rd(1916), 7th(1911), 7th(1913), 7th(1914), 9th(1918), 9th (1919)

*Consolidated Finishes across all major professional hockey leagues at the time. The above figures would be even more robust if I was tallying figures from just the league each player was a part of. By using consolidated totals, the talent pool increases significantly, giving a person a better representation of where a player fell on a statistical curve.

There are 7 consolidated goal scoring titles on Sunnyvale's top line. It's lethal at putting the puck in the back of the net with the added bonus of being a real life trio. We literally know they worked fantastically together.

Moving on, Bernie Morris had consolidated finishes of 1, 2, 4, 4. He absolutely had a God mode (how about the 1917 SCF when he scored 14 goals in 4 games, a win over Lalonde and the Habs btw). If teams want to focus on limiting Morris's chances he was 1, 3, 4, 5, 8, 8 in consolidated assists and Sittler a tenacious and able (3 top 10 finishes) goal getter himself a nice target for Bernie. George Hay even had 4 seasons of top 10 in goals, consolidated.

Joe Mullen scored 30 goals or more, 10 times, with 7 of 40+. Led the playoff in goals, twice. Bergeron scored 30+, 6 times, with a Cup winner to his name in a game 7. 4 OT winners. Tkachuk, 4 OT winners, 40+ twice to this point. Cleghorn was an elite goal scoring defensemen in his day. Howitzer of a shot.

Digging deeper, your team is very dependent on cycling the puck and winning through attrition and griding out goals. But who is orchestrating all of that?

Montreal is woefully lacking in terms of playmaking, historically speaking on the F lines. I pointed that out clearly in the F analysis. You don't have a single player who ever led a league in assists. The best finish, out of 12 guys, was 4th (Bossy and Davidson).

Sunnyvale doesn't have that issue. Again, we're talking actual real world statistical facts.
 
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That's so cool! It must be hockey paradise (at least NA) to be within driving distance of so many historic sites and homes. A cross country trek of Canada is very high on the to do list, in part because I want to see those special hockey landmarks. Both coasts. I often wonder how crazy all the past hockey legends would think our band of ATD'ers and HoH'ers haha. What would they think of our research and teams?

1. My point in breaking down the PIM totals is to show that while Sunnyvale will likely be penalized a bit more over the course of a series, it's not the chasm people may be envision when you see Lalonde, Cleghorn, Stevens.

Our top player (Harvey) and D is penalized less than yours (Potvin).
Cleghorn is highly penalized, historically. So is Moose Johnson. Even more so, factually when looking at the postseason.
Montreal sees ALL 6 of their defensemen increase in PIMs from the regular season to post.

We're uniquely built to withstand playing the aggressive, physical brand of hockey. Bergeron, Gainey, Bourne and Mackell are all low PIM players. That makes up a sensational group of PK forwards. It'll be pretty rare we're without one of those 4. The D is flush with great to legendary PK'ers, on an all time scale. If Harvey would go off, you can still roll out Stevens-Cleghorn as your top unit. Stevens sitting? Harvey-Cleghorn. If Sprague is cooling down, you're still getting Stevens-Harvey and then McDonagh, one of the best PK'ers of the last 15 years, on a 2nd unit.

2. Where are my goals coming from?

I think that question is more applicable to your team considering the historical offensive output of both teams and then factor in which team has a better collection of defensive/checking legends/depth in those departments. Basically which F group is up against it more?

With that being said, Lalonde and Malone are elite. Here are the numbers again. Pitre sort of gets lost in the shuffle but was a great goal getter himself.

*Lalonde - 1st(1908), 1st(1910), 1st(1916), 2nd(1912), 2nd(1919), 2nd(1920), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1921), 5th(1913), 5th(1918), 6th(1911), 7th(1917), 10th(1914)

*Malone - 1st(1913), 1st(1918), 1st(1920), 2nd(1916), 2nd(1917), 4th(1921), 5th(1922), 7th(1914), 10th(1912)

*Pitre - 1st(1906), 3rd(1912), 3rd(1915), 3rd(1916), 7th(1911), 7th(1913), 7th(1914), 9th(1918), 9th (1919)

*Consolidated Finishes across all major professional hockey leagues at the time. The above figures would be even more robust if I was tallying figures from just the league each player was a part of. By using consolidated totals, the talent pool increases significantly, giving a person a better representation of where a player fell on a statistical curve.

There are 7 consolidated goal scoring titles on Sunnyvale's top line. It's lethal at putting the puck in the back of the net with the added bonus of being a real life trio. We literally know they worked fantastically together.

Moving on, Bernie Morris had consolidated finishes of 1, 2, 4, 4. He absolutely had a God mode (how about the 1917 SCF when he scored 14 goals in 4 games, a win over Lalonde and the Habs btw). If teams want to focus on limiting Morris's chances he was 1, 3, 4, 5, 8, 8 in consolidated assists and Sittler a tenacious and able (3 top 10 finishes) goal getter himself a nice target for Bernie. George Hay even had 4 seasons of top 10 in goals, consolidated.

Joe Mullen scored 30 goals or more, 10 times, with 7 of 40+. Led the playoff in goals, twice. Bergeron scored 30+, 6 times, with a Cup winner to his name in a game 7. 4 OT winners. Tkachuk, 4 OT winners, 40+ twice to this point. Cleghorn was an elite goal scoring defensemen in his day. Howitzer of a shot.

Digging deeper, your team is very dependent on cycling the puck and winning through attrition and griding out goals. But who is orchestrating all of that?

Montreal is woefully lacking in terms of playmaking, historically speaking on the F lines. I pointed that out clearly in the F analysis. You don't have a single player who ever led a league in assists. The best finish, out of 12 guys, was 4th (Bossy and Davidson).

Sunnyvale doesn't have that issue. Again, we're talking actual real world statistical facts.
Looks like I'm going to have to whip out my ERAS system. I'll be back shortly with my rundown of the series. Not sure it'll change my opinion or not, but we'll see.

This isn't an All-Star Game. Both teams have bluelines that mean business, but I believe my spine up the middle, overall size, toughness, and ability to play a clean, structured game give me a slight edge.

Sunnyvale has some tremendous weapons on their top line, but offense doesn't exist in a vacuum when it comes to the rest of your lines. Every chance still has to get through Potvin, Barkov, Kopitar, Sundin possessing the puck down low, a supersized Clapper/Moose shutdown pair, and Dryden over the course of a long seven-game series. Add in the luxury of having a player like Point driving play from the fourth line, and I think this team is built to wear opponents down rather than simply trade chances. With Gorman orchestrating a game he invented, but now with more weapons at his disposal.

The question I keep coming back to is this: which roster is better built to win a low-event series? Which team is more likely to play clean hockey, control possession, protect the middle of the ice, and force the other side to earn every inch of offense? That's where I think the discussion gets interesting.

Another factor here is coaching.

I don't think Al Arbour is going to have much patience for undisciplined hockey, particularly in a long playoff series. If Sunnyvale starts taking unnecessary penalties, running around looking for big hits, or turning games into track meets, I suspect Arbour reins that in pretty quickly.

The interesting question then becomes what happens to the workload distribution. Stevens and Harvey are already carrying enormous responsibilities. Stevens is a major part of the defensive backbone and penalty kill, while Harvey is being asked to drive offense from the back end and run PP1/PK1. Not saying they can't handle it, but I'm saying they are going to be busy dealing with big bodies as well. If Arbour is simultaneously asking them to clean up discipline issues and control the pace of the series, that's a lot on the plate of two defensemen who are already central to almost everything Sunnyvale does. Your Big 3 can handle it, but I'm not trying to win the battle, I'm just trying to contain them. And Stevens/Cleghorn will also be courting the attention of the referees in a modern game that doesn't tolerate headshots, charging, and stickwork.

That's where I think roster construction starts to matter. My team isn't relying on one or two players to carry the structure. The burden is spread across Barkov, Kopitar, Sundin, Point, Potvin, Clapper, Moose, and Dryden. Over seven games, that depth of responsibility and puck possession becomes very difficult to attack.

I see this series as extremely tight and the danger for me now is people see Harvey, Stevens, Cleghorn, Lalonde vs Potvin, Bossy, Clapper, Dryden giving no rebounds and make a value judgment based on names when we have a full series to play.

One thing I keep coming back to is that playoff hockey still isn't played in a vacuum. Sunnyvale has a scary top line and elite puck movement from the back end, but the question is whether that translates cleanly over seven games against size, defensive structure, center depth, disciplined toughness, and Ken Dryden.

With all due respect to your drafting abilities, after picking your Big 3 and Lalonde/Malone, my team was intentionally built around strength and size up the middle and in the corners, two-way play, and connected modern hockey rather than relying on a single elite playmaker to manufacture everything. If Gorman is being modernized into an ATD coach, I suspect he'd still want layers of support, puck possession, defensive structure, and enough physical pushback to make life miserable over seven games. Talent matters, obviously, but so does forcing that talent to play through traffic, pressure, and fatigue every night.

Anyway, we'll see what the ERAS exercise says. Maybe it changes my mind, maybe it doesn't. ERAS is about assigning ratings based on citation and creating a proxy environment that each player faced during their defining years. Then recombining that within their current roles in this series. You've already done a lot of the research. But it's the conclusions I'm not sure about in some cases as we've discussed. But I keep an open mind- the truth is the truth and that's what we're after.
 
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*-Where We Agree—and What I Have to Prove. I argue that with the matchups factored in, Sunnyvale will have trouble finding offense in a low event atmosphere.


CategoryYou argueSlightly disagreeI argue
Line 1Sunnyvale edgeYou say clear; I will try to reduce it to wash with the matchup factored in; Potvin's offense and my unit total defense makes it a wash. Especially with Lalonde/Stevens massive PIMs.*WASH
Line 2Montreal slight-to-solid edgeI will argue clear MTL matchup edge*MTL edge
Line 3Sunnyvale slight edgeYou lean Sunnyvale; I see matchup push if you are suppressing*WASH
Line 4Montreal slight edgeYou say slight; I say clear*I argue clear edge
Top pairSunnyvale edgeYou may see it larger; I say slight because Clapper will be used to supplement top unit mins; Stevens heavy PIMsWe agree.
Second pairI think you said washMoose Johnson (6'4", 225 adj) clearly better than McDonagh, Clapper 6'5", 230 adjusted*MTL edge
Third pairSunnyvale slight edgeWash/slight MTL depending on usage; Arbour will bench Pratt; Potvin (28-31 total mins) will take some mins with McAvoy with lower lines*Wash/slight MTL
Goalies: Dryden vs VezinaMontreal slight edgeYou say slight; I say clear. 1971, Dryden greatest peak of any goalie ever.*MTL edge
CoachSunnyvale edgeYou say clear; I say slight-to-solid; Gorman invented forecheck, took last place team to Cup, won Cup on two different teams back-to-back*SV slight edge
Special teamsSunnyvale slight edgeAgree. Reduced by PIMs, Montreal PK and DrydenWe agree.
Center depth/deploymentBarkov, Kopitar, Sundin.. big hockey. Point two-way scoring as a 4CMontreal clear structural edge
 
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Series Particulars:


1. Proven Chemistry of Top Line
The MLP line dominated the inaugural NHL season in 1917-18. Malone scored 44 goals in 20 games (won Rocket and Art Ross), a record that stood until Maurice Richard came to be. Despite missing 6 games, Lalonde registered 30 points (23+7) in 14 contests, still good enough for 4th place in the league. Pitre finished with 23 in 20, coming in 7th. Their combined 101 points in 54 combined games was most in the league and the trio easily had the most goals for/fewest goals against.

2. Finding The Back of the Net
You need to score to win. MLP collectively and individually, knew how to do just that. 6 times Lalonde led his leagues goals. His record of 455 goals in major league hockey was not surpassed until '55-56 by Maurice Richard. Malone actually had a slightly higher goals per game average, which is saying something, and led the NHA/NHL 4 separate times, including a long standing single season record in 17-18. Even the 3rd wheel, Pitre, led his leagues 3 times in outright scoring w/2 Rockets (IHL/NHA). That's 12 goal scoring titles combined, creating a unique challenge in defending.

Top Scorers, 1909-1926, from the Hockey Compendium
Name | Games|Goals|Assists|Points
Newsy Lalonde | 296 |362 |81 |443
Joe Malone | 273 |343 |58| 401

Cy Denneny | 259 |258 |82 | 340
Frank Nighbor | 287 |238 |96 | 334
Frank Foyston | 297 |223 |72 | 295
Cyclone Taylor | 169 |189 |104| 293
Mickey MacKay | 247 |198 |92| 290

PPG (min 100 games)
Taylor - 1.73 (significantly fewer games played than everyone else)
Lalonde - 1.50
Malone - 1.47

Denneny - 1.31
Nighbor - 1.20
MacKay - 1.17
Pitre - 1.10
Foyston - 0.99

GPG (min 100 games)
Malone - 1.26
Lalonde - 1.22

Taylor - 1.12
Denneny - 1.00
Pitre - 0.95
Nighbor - 0.83
MacKay - 0.80
Foyston - 0.75

Bernie Morris winning an outright consolidated (NHA+PCHA) Rocket in 1916 over some big, big names, including Lalonde.

Darryl Sittler scored 40 or more goals 5 times. Bergeron 30 or more 6 times.

Matt Tkachuk already has a pair of 40 goal seasons to his name and is playing with a C who excelled w/a very similar winger in Brad Marchand. He and Bergeron have scored A LOT of huge postseason/SCF goals.

Joe Mullen scored 51 once, 40+ 7 times, and led the postseason in goals, twice.

3. Sunnyvale Is Built For Arbour (and your team, we'll get to that later)

Lalonde plays an Arbour style of hockey. Fast, aggressive on the man/puck, playing a robust physical, 200 foot game. There are a lot of similarities to Bryan Trottier. A born leader and line driver, he possesses the skill needed to carry a puck through traffic, and tenacity to win puck battles when the need arises. Big game player who routinely showed out well in Cup matches.

Malone isn't a carbon copy of Bossy, but he's pretty close. Scored a lot of goals by "finding space", operating often in the slot, net areas. Preference for a lightning quick release, choosing accuracy over power. Both were clean players who stayed clear of the penalty box. The biggest difference to me, is that Malone stickhandled more than Bossy, though that's largely explained by the era/rules differences.

D.A.L. MacDonald, Montreal Gazette, January 23, 1934: Turning Back Hockey’s Pages
Scoring marks were not the only records Malone that left behind him for future hockey stars to shoot at. In the days of rowdy hockey, when butchery was too often the means towards victory, Malone was a Frankie Boucher type of centre. It is significant that in 1919-20, when penalties records were kept for the first time, Malone served only 12 minutes on the side-lines, though scoring 39 tallies.
Tall, rugged and a great stickhandler, he was also a potent defensive unit. He had a fine poke-check, and like Nighbor, used a long stick to break up opposing attacks. He and Odie Cleghorn were probably the outstanding stickhandlers of their day. But unlike Odie, who used a short stick and nursed the puck along almost between his skates, Malone swept through the opposition with long, swinging strides. He was a left hand shot.

Dink Carroll, Montreal Gazette, June 28, 1950 (Malone elected to Hall of Fame)
One thing Joe could do was put the puck in the net. As we recall him he skated with his feet fairly wide apart, was hard to knock off balance, was always in the right place at the right time and had a hard and accurate shot.
Many respected observers regard Joe Malone as the greatest all-around scorer of the early NHL year. “He might have been the most prolific scorer of all time if they had played more games in those days,” said Frank J. Selke, the former Canadiens managing director who remembered Malone as a young professional. “It was amazing the way Joe used to get himself in position to score. In that respect his style was similar to Gordie Howe’s. Joe was no Howie Morenz as far as speed was concerned. But he was a clean player like Dave Keon and Frank Boucher. On the other hand, though, Joe never took a backwards step from anybody.”

Joe Malone describing his own shot
"I didn't have the hardest shot in the world," he said "but I knew where it was going most of the time. You can't say as much for the slap shot. With the old wrist shot you looked where you were shooting, trying to pick your spots. With the slap the player has to keep his eye on the puck, like in golf, or you're liable to fan the shot entirely. I've seen that done. It's an exciting play, but I wouldn't want to be the goaltender. You never know where the puck's going. Seems to me that's why so many goalies get hurt."

Veteran ice hockey fan voicing his opinion on Joe Malone in the December 30, 1919 issue of Ottawa Journal
"This fellow Malone, he is not the fastest but he is the smoothest forward in the league. He is absolutely reliable around a net. He is a great stickhandler, and a player who never gets flurried no matter how hard the going is. What Eddie Collins is to baseball, Malone is to hockey."

The story, up and down the F group, are players who were/are very willing to engage in the checking game, even the scorers. Speaking of checking.

4. Skating/Relentless Checking
One of the main features of Arbour's Islanders was the ability and willingness to engage w/an aggressive forecheck, especially on opposing defensemen. Sunnyvale was built with that in mind, starting w/the lynchpin Lalonde.

Throughout the Shithawks lineup, you'll find plenty of noted elite to good skaters. Not surprisingly, most were also noted checkers, ranging from solid to best ever.

Pitre, Gainey, Bourne, Mackell were of the exceptional skating variety. Among the swiftest of their day. Both Hay and Morris were routinely described as "fast, speedy". Even those who were closer to average like Lalonde, Malone, Tkachuk, Mullen brought a willingness to play physical. Their drive (like Ted Kennedy for Gallifrey) and relentlessness essentially gave them the ability to play faster than their natural skating allowed.

Lalonde and Sittler set the tone in the top 6, down the middle. Gainey and Tkachuk is an absolutely lethal forechecking combination. Bergeron is almost always going to be in the right spot at the right time. Time and space will be next to nil for any opposing group, be it F's or D. You have a maddening 4th line to play against due to a combination of speed/tenacity and enough skill to counter.

One of the most common qualities of great title teams, especially the dynasties, was an ability to overwhelm other teams with skating and checking in their bottom 6's. That spurs depth scoring, which often becomes the difference.

5, Versatile F Group
Versatility is everywhere in Sunnyvale's F group. Arbour has numerous configurations at his disposal from a tactical standpoint. Or if an injury occurs.

Malone played C/LW
Pitre - RW/D
Morris - RW/C
Tkachuk - RW/LW
Bourne - LW/C
Mackell - LW/C

6. Sunnyvale Counters Montreal's Style Beautifully

This is a key one.

As I pointed out a few times already, it's obvious the style of game Gorman's Victorias want to play here. You spelled it out but anyone with a solid base in historical knowledge woudl see it. Lean on Sunnyvale, check, check, check, cycle, cycle, cycle and win low scoring contests. A war of attrition and puck possession.

You talk about this not being an exercise in building all-star teams or looking at teams/construction. I couldn't agree more.

Let's break down how I avoided doing anything of the sort. I could have. I could have focused on gaining more VsX. I could have focused on taking someone other than Sittler or Hay to boost playoff standing on the 2nd line. I could have skipped on Cleghorn after I already had taken Harvey-Stevens, out of fear for PIMs or not being able to field a balanced roster. I chose to take Cleghorn because of the tactical advantages a 3rd #1D allows me, namely is reduces the amount of time a bottom pairing is exposed in a best of 7.

The ATD is about all time standing, and talent, first and foremost, but the nuances of the sport should also be intertwined as you point out. Sunnyvale took all of that into consideration. There are a lot of years under this belt and hard lessons learned along the way. A great roster but a bad fit w/a coach. Choosing VsX over a better all around player who could bridge a gap in a line. Getting hung up on Cup counting. Those sorts of misses.

How do you expect to do gain the upper hand against a team that can skate, check, and defend like Sunnyvale? Led by one of the best ever, to employ that kind of approach in Arbour?

On the ice, led by 2 of the greatest to ever do it at F (Bergeron, Gainey) and D (Harvey, Stevens). As I showed above, elite skaters and more than willing fore/backckers up and down the lineup. Elite transition (Harvey, Cleghorn, Pratt/Harmon and Vezina in G) out of the defensive zone which is a direct counter to the aggressive forechecking approach. A group of F's that had A LOT of talent in stickhandling and combination work associated often in early era hockey. Guys like Lalonde, Malone, Pitre, Morris, Hay, etc.

Sunnyvale is not a small hockey team. 9 of 12 forwards are 6'1" or bigger. Let's get that out of the way. The 2 smallest players (Mackell and Harmon) were elite skaters and hyper aggressive performers. Mullen, the other guy under 6 foot was visually a very tough player and I will include contemporary praise in the subsequent section. Size is great but more than that, if we're getting outside a vacuum is heart, desire, play style. I've seen hundreds of hockey players who are sub 6 foot and consistently out hustle and out physical guys 3, 4, 5 inches and 40-50 lbs heavier. I'm sure you have as well.

Secondly, a lot of Sunnyvale's guys played in the roughest era in hockey history. Most of those players were on the ice for 60 minutes or at least close to that. Enduring a robust style of game is in their DNA. Trying to employ a Gorman scheme against Sunnyvale, IMHO, is a tactic that really falls flat when you examine each individual player (both sides) and thus the collective of the Shithawks.

Size and physicality. Let's dig into that.

7. Why Raw Size is Overrated - And Montreal Isn't Even THAT Much Bigger Anyway

To do what Montreal wants to do, which is own possession, win a war of attrition, and wear down the opposition, they need numerous clear cut advantages. Hockey isn't won simply based on size. Style of play, how consistently size is used, actual verifiable contemporary praise and/or video evidence give us a more robust and clear idea than just raw numbers.

Someone can't draft a bunch of big players and say they'll just impose their will on the opposition. Who you're playing matters, and who you're playing is, IMHO. the most physical and relentless roster in the ATD this year. Not to mention the most accomplished defensive collective led by 4 absolute legends.

However, I'm going to compare the rosters as they would play one another (LW vs RW, C vs C, LD vs RW, etc).

Since TZ has brought up adjusted size and it been used throughout the ATD process, we'll go w/seventieslord's adjustment methods. Starting with a 1970 birthday, every 20 years you go back in time you add 1 inch and 10 lbs to the player's raw size.

Top Lines:
Malone - Born in 1890 - Raw size is 5'10'' 150 so he would get 4 inches and 40 lbs = 6'2'' 190 lbs
Bossy - Born in 1957 - Raw size is 6'0'' 186 so 0.5 inch+5 lbs = 6'0.5'' 191 lbs

Lalonde - 6'1'' 210
Barkov - 6'3'' 214

Pitre - 6'3.5'' 230
Shanahan - 6'3'' 220

Where is the substantial size advantage? It doesn't exist between the 2 lines who will be getting the most ice time on either team.

Barkov has a slight bit more length than Lalonde but gives up a tremendous amount of physicality in an overall sense against Newsy who's one of the most intense competitors the league has ever seen.

I think this is a wonderful microcosm of what I've been saying. Not that Lalonde is small, by any stretch, certain players simply play, way, way bigger than whatever height/weight is attached to their name. Barkov has never, ever, had to face someone with the combination of sheer talent and physical tenacity in the modern NHL. And Lalonde did pretty darn well historically, against some guy name Frank Nighbor who has Barkov beat as a defensive and offensive presence, all time.

Shanahan gets equaled/slightly bested by Pitre in size and the latter has a big skating advantage head to head. Pitre didn't initiate near as much physically as Shanahan but he also took zero shit and was noted as a very difficult player to check (Cy Denneny direct quote) or move off the puck/around the ice by physical means.

Malone and Bossy, are once again, in another department, spitting images of each other. Same size, same willingness to endure a beating to score goals, though neither are going to be physically draining opponents in any big way.

2nd Lines:
Nash - 6'4'' 211
Morris - 5'11'' 185

Kopitar - 6'3'' 225
Sittler - 6'1'' 200

Anderson - 6'1.5'' 195
Hay - 6'1'' 195

Based on just size, Nash vs Morris is the first real substantial difference head to head. Going beyond just size, Morris was routinely noted as aggressive, rugged, and is one of many Sunnyvale players who happened to perform during the most aggressive and volatile era in hockey history. On top of that Morris was a really good back checker. Nash, by anyone who saw him play, which should be a lot of us, was not a consistent, physical presence despite his size. He could be, but not everyone is wired that way. These are key facts that need included in this talk about size and how that translates (or doesn't) to the ice.

Let's rip a fraction of the quotes I have on Morris' style of play from the 2024 bio. The first entry is from the God-mode SCF win over Lalonde and the Habs in 1917

21 Mar. 1917 - The Province

-SCF vs Montreal, toughness highlighted in a series Morris absolutely dominated. 4 game series win for Seattle. 14 goals and 2 assists.

1709007361275.png


24 Mar, 1917 - The Province

-SCF Seattle clinches the title with Morris yet again dominant.

-"Morris scored six of his team's goals and he skated and checked and shot the puck as few hockey players in the game ever have been able to do."

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31 Jan, 1918 - The Victoria Daily Times

-Morris carried off lion's share of honors as game's star.
-Noted "was there at the checking game as well, and his work aided the home team materially."

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Feb 21, 1918 - Seattle Daily Times

-Morris and Roberts played fine defensive hockey.

-Noted to play a very strong fore-checking game that saw Portland have trouble getting out of their own zone.

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22 Mar, 1920 - Ottawa Citizen

-Noted as "short, rugged looking athlete"
-Noted as "wonderful shot and sensational backchecker"
-
Was idol of Seattle fans and regarded as "one of most dangerous forwards hockey has ever produced"

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06 Dec, 1921 - Calgary Herald

-In post game (Mets lost 2-1 to Millionaires) write up Morris "played a hard game and back checked stiffly."


16 Feb, 1922 - Seattle Daily Times


-Morris post game noted as "best right wing in hockey"
-"Doing everything that the most particular critic could ask of a man"
-"Backbone of Seattle attack"
-"Wonder on defense, perfecting a swinging check with a stiff grip on his stick that is a beauty."
-"Time after time he batted the puck away from the Victoria team"

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19 Oct, 1923 - Calgary Herald

-Morris noted as versatilte, bouncing between C and RW.
-Noted as "extremely hard backcheker"
-Most dangerous shot
-Even-tempered player who is "pretty skater but excels in stickhandling"

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06 Dec, 1923 - Seattle Star

-Morris played a "beautiful game for the invaders, backchecking like a demon."

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26 Deb, 1923 - Saskatoon Daily Star

-Morris checked Newsy Lalonde down at center ice, leading to a subsequent goal.

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17 Jan, 1924: Calgary Albertan

-Clever and heady game w/stiff body checking

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08 Mar, 1924 - Calgary Herald

-SCF, Morris (along with Oliver) noted as "raising havoc with their incessant harassing of the Cap forwards who couldn't shake the checks."

-Morris sharpshooting noted but bulk of his (and Oliver's) excellent style was "shown in backchecking and they did that to a nicety."


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Kopitar is a good bit bigger than Sittler but not significantly so. Then again, like Lalonde vs Barkov, size means less in this instance. Sittler was wired and did operate aggressively, which lends itself to playing bigger than just the raw, physical, totals.

Hay and Anderson are essentially identical size wise, though Anderson certainly played a more aggressive game than Hay. The counter to Hay not being super physical, is that he was excellent defensively while possessing good offensive acumen and was a gamer/team man who did whatever the coach needed. Jack Adams spoke to how easy it was to coach Hay and what he provided as a player and they appeal to a coach like Arbour.

Modern comparison - Patrik Elias comes to mind immediately.

3rd Lines:
Tkachuk - 6'2'' 202
Tonelli - 6'1.5'' 205

Sundin - 6'5'' 231
Bergeron - 6'1'' 196

Gainey - 6'3'' 210
Rantanen - 6'4'' 228

Sundin is one of the biggest C's ever, no doubt offers what I consider just the 2nd, big advantage in raw size vs Bergeron.

Then again, Bergeron is the pinnacle for modern defensive mastery at C, had elite possession metrics, elite faceoff ability, and a tenacity that = a guy playing bigger than his 6'1'' 200ish lbs might indicate.
1781838050706.png


Bergeron played Sundin head to head 14 times from 03-04 to 08-09 and did pretty darn well despite the size difference. Historically, Sundin was post-prime but Bergeron was also pre-Selke version. Tilting the ice at ES is what Bergeron did for the vast majority of his career.

1781839984333.png


Gainey gives up very little to Rantanen in size, can outskate him and is arguably the greatest fore/backchecking winger in league history. When you add int the pure doggedness of Gainey, and elite physicality while taking few PIMs, is a touch more size for Mikko really going to move the needle 1v1?

Tkachuk wipes out Tonelli across the board physically speaking.

4th Lines:
Bourne - 6'4'' 210
Davidson - 6'5'' 235

Mackell - 5'9'' 176
Point - 5'11'' 177

Cashman - 6'2'' 218
Mullen - 5'9.5'' 185

The big difference is Cashman vs Mullen.

Mullen was a bulldog of a player despite his size so I don't see him being pushed around in any meaningful way. He's not going to shy away from the corners, or slot/net areas. Mullen excelled going to those places and scored a whole lot of goals, regular season and postseason for a 4th liner in the ATD. Here are some fantastic quotes on Mullen, including by your own Brad McCrimmon. Having watched a bit of old tape from the Flames and Penguins days, I'm not worried about Joe being lost in a war of attrition or heavy going.

He never played for Arbour but something tells me Al would have welcomed Mullen w/open arms.

The Fire Inside said:
Of course, that heart of a lion was part of a complete package, which included a pretty good set of hands that came with that pint-sized 5'9" 180 pound frame.

From the day the right winger was acquired from the St. Louis Blues on Feb. 1, 1986, he became a fan favourite. It was more than the 16 goals and 22 assists he tallied in his 29 games the rest of that 1985-86 season. It was the grit, guts and offensive touch he added in the playoffs, leading all playoff scorers with 12 goals and guiding the Flames to the Stanley Cup Final against the Montreal Canadiens.

Over the next 4 seasons, he was as consistent as any scorer in the NHL, firing 47, 40, 51 and 36 goals.

"I tried to give it 100% and play both ends of the rink," says Mullen. "I tried to concentrate on my defensive side of my game. Once we turned it over and we had the puck, it was all out offense. Get the puck to the center and try to get in the open, get it back and shoot."

No mater the score, Mullen never took a night off.
100 Things Penguins Fans Should Know Before They Die said:
On the contrary, he scored most of his goals twisting and driving through traffic, often releasing the puck from awkward angles as he was tumbling to the ice. But my, was he effective.

He had a choppy stride, a by-product of his roller hockey days on the streets of Manhattan. But Mullen possessed great balance and surprising strength, along with a nose for the net.

Many feared it was the end of the line for the 33 year old winger. Displaying his trademark bulldog tenacity, Mullen beat the odds. He returned to action in the playoffs wearing a neck collar for protection and scored 8 goals, including 2 in Game 6 of the finals to help spark the Penguins to their first Stanley Cup.

Again, there were doubts about whether Mullen could bounce back. Again, the gritty winger defied the odds returning to score 33 goals in 1992-93 and 38 the next year to earn a spot on the Eastern Conference All Star Team.

At 39 years of age, it appeared he had finally reached the end of the line. But the Penguins missed his reliable two-way play and his penchant for scoring clutch goals.
Wikipedia said:
Mullen arrived in the NHL possessing great balance on his skates, an ability his teammates and coaches believed he gained from playing roller hockey. His coaches praised his willingness to play in the difficult areas of the ice, even though he stood only five foot nine inches tall and knew he would have to take a hit to make a play. Penguins' play-by-play announcer Mike Lange nicknamed Mullen "Slippery Rock Joe" for his ability to evade opposing players.
Nobody handed out placards with Joe Mullen's name last night. Nobody roared approval when he stepped onto the ice. Truth is, nobody really seemed to notice.

Hey, it was supposed to be Mario Lemieux's night at the Civic Arena, not Mullen's. Besides, Mullen is used to being overlooked. He could have made a made a career out of it if people didn't have a nasty habit of adding up the numbers on the scoresheet after every game.

That two-way diligence doesn't do much to pad Mullen's personal stats...
Joe Mullen put himself through a rigorous workout program during the offseason... it is difficult to overstate his value as a consistent, two-way contributor...
Scotty Bowman said:
He's so good defensively, we often use him in roles that take away from his offense. We don't put him on a lot of power plays. He always finds a way to score goals
Terry Crisp said:
He goes where the heavy going is, comes in front of the net and is smart enough to know how to take a check. A lot of players give you a first effort and that's it. With Mully, you'll see a second and third and sometimes even a fourth effort where he scores from his knees. He simply refuses to accept the fact they are trying to take him out o the play.
Emile Francis said:
He's not the biggest guy in the world, but he's strong and he's got great balance.
Emile Francis said:
He was a godsend last year. He has become an intrcate part of this team's goal-scoring ability. He's not only a good goal scorer but a playmaker.
Brad McCrimmon said:
Mully spent a career excelling in areas of the ice a lot of guys wouldn't visit on a threat of death. Great balance on his skates. Great desire. Great teammate. A little guy with big talent and a huge heart


Davidson was one of the biggest players of his era and adjusts to a whopping 6'5'' 235 but he's opposed by Bourne who goes 6'4'' 210. Hardly a small man. Both guys could fly on skates. Bourne was noted for his elite wheels, forechecking, backchecking, long reach, etc.


Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1980 said:
Call him "Jets"...He has them for skates...One of swiftest skaters in the league...Used mostly at left wing but played all three forward positions..Plays on power play...Kills penalties...
Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1981 said:
May be fastest skater in league and he knows how to use his speed...Has emerged as devastating penalty killer due to speed and long reach...Versatile guy who played all three forward position...
Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1983 said:
One of hockey's swiftest, most graceful skaters...Always a threat to penetrate behind opposing defensemen with his quick, clever moves...Used either at center or left wing...Excels in defensive part of game as checker and penalty killer...A versatile player...Receives and delivers passes well while in full speed...Uses his speed effectively to create two-one-one rushes and breakaways...
Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1984 said:
One of the fastest skaters in the game...Always a breakway threat...Important cog in Islanders' great penalty-killing unit...Usually a left wing but has played all three forward positions...Underrated defensive player...Can play point on power play...
Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1985 said:
Islanders missed his speed in losing Stanley Cup final to swift skating Edmonton...Sidelined with ankle injury during most of playoffs..Has exceptional skating speed...Always a threat to make solo fast-break rush from one end of ice to the other...Can play all three forward positions...Excels as penalty-killer...Good forechecker and backchecker...Has winning touch when taking faceoffs...Normally plays wing...

Bob Bourne
Position: Left Wing/Center, New York Islanders 1974-86; Los Angelas Kings 1986-88

Bourne made his own luck through the rest of his career on a combination of speed, versatility, determination, attitude and heart.

His SPEED, DEFENSE, AND PENALTY KILLING made him EXTREMELY VALUABLE even if he was not as well known as some of his teammates.

-Who's Who in Hockey
http://books.google.com/books?id=wpbLnSHBNHgC&pg=PT58&lpg=PT58&dq=bob+bourne+versatility&source=bl&ots=XN8Z4bp-ra&sig=DX9IyOdf13rWlkNNj1WJ57Vs9VM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=99IcU5vkMoSj0QG02YDwDQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=bob bourne versatility&f=false

Mackell and Point are almost identically sized, both are great, great skaters. More importantly though;

Here are the quotes on Mackell's game. Another player who just doesn't read like a guy who will mind playing a heavy checking game/series.

Greatest Hockey Legends said:
When he was called upon by the Leafs he was expected to be a defensive-minded winger with rugged intentions. He was considered by many to be the fastest skater in the league when he played, despite a bowlegged stance.
...
In the 1951-52 season MacKell was traded to Boston where he found a home for nearly a decade. He became an important part of the Bruins attack, as well as a specialty teams specialist. He was a regular on both the power play and penalty kill units, thanks to his speed. He was also noted for scoring goals from the side of the net.

Ultimate Hockey said:
He was a tough, chippy little center. Like a lot of small players, Mackell was a maddening guy to play against. He was a tricky center who would dart from point to point on the ice. He had superb acceleration, was a nifty stick-handler, and had a star quality shot. And the boy had heart.

....

Peak years 1953-57
Comparable Recent Player Theoren Fleury
In a Word ROOSTER

Who's Who In Hockey said:
One of the speediest skaters ever to grace the National Hockey League

Trail of the Stanley Cup said:
Mackell was a tough little centre.

What about the defensemen?

Top Pairs:

*Harvey - 6'1'' 210
Stevens - 6'2'' 215
vs
Potvin - 6'1'' 215
McCrimmon - 5'11'.5'' 202

2nd Pairs:
*Cleghorn - 6'3'' 230
McDonagh - 6'1'' 215
vs
Johnson - 6'3'' 225
Clapper - 6'5'' 225

3rd Pairs:
*Pratt - 6'5.5'' 240
Harmon - 5'11'' 195
vs
Neilson - 6'3.5'' 225
McAvoy - 6'1'' 211

You have to go all the way down to Harmon to find a small player on Sunnyvale, a guy who will be playing roughly 4-5 minutes of a 60 minute contest at 3RD. And Harmon possessed elite skating and transition ability during his playing days. Had no problems playing a physical game, despite the size. He is there to repel the forechecking of Montreal with the attributes I just listed.

Montreal's smallest player is on their top pair, though he also plays bigger than his listed size. There's that distinction again!

Stevens and Cleghorn offer 2 of the most intimidating and physically stout players the league has ever seen. We know how great Harvey was. Pratt was a massive player who played a massive game. Even McDonagh goes 215 and is the metronomic sidekick to a colorful and better partner, Cleghorn.

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7. Montreal is Woefully Unbalanced Offensively

Beyond the fact that Montreal has a historically bad offensive group in the ATD, it's lacking playmakers that can be relied on to facilitate consistently, especially against the quality defensive team that is the Sunnyvale Shithawks.

Let's take a look at the collective, historical top 10 assist finishes for each team: Consolidated finishes for Sunnyvale's early era players are included.

Montreal - 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10
Sunnyvale - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9

Bossy, your best goal scorer, by far, is also your primary facilitator, historically speaking. That isn't a good thing in a team building exercise. That's not to say Bossy needed or needs Wayne Gretzky or even Trottier to be successful. Rather that it does place more of a burden on a guy who should be primarily focused on scoring goals, not handling the lions share of the playmaking role on the top unit.

Is Shanahan a reliable puck winner in a corner? Sure. Is he someone who should be looked at as making pinpoint passes and generating robust chances for others? I don't think so.

When you lack creativity, vision, and historical data on an ATD scale, guys like Harvey, Stevens, Bergeron, and Gainey are going to have a field day IMO.

Special Teams coming up next.
 
A few numbers of my own

MONTREAL WAS BUILT TO FACE SUNNYVALE. IE quickly stacked up his Big 3 on defense and for the entire draft I knew I had to build depth and structure but also have my bases covered on offense.

IE’s latest post makes a very strong historical case for Sunnyvale’s top line. No argument that Malone–Lalonde–Pitre is the offensive headline here.

But if we use his own line-value framework, the forward scoring picture is a lot closer than “Montreal is woefully unbalanced offensively.”

He has Didier Pitre on a top line, Darryl Sittler and his woeful playoff numbers as his 2C, not much scoring from Hay, he has McDonagh as his 4. His third line will be suppressing, so no goals there.

Again, once matchups are accounted for, where are the goals coming from?

Malone-Lalonde-Pitre will not be getting clean offense often enough against Barkov-Potvin-McCrimmon/Clapper and "Big Dryden" as Danny Gallivan used to call him. Harvey’s main offensive value is tempo, passing and transition, not Potvin-style activation/shot volume. Harvey isn't going to join the offense and doesn't provide a big shot at the point. Stevens is strictly stay-at-home.

My top line has what many say was the best player in the entire NHL in the second half of the 1970s in Denis Potvin. It also has dynasty chemistry in Potvin-Bossy. That's elite transition and playmaking with elite finishing at both ends. Gretzky called Bossy, "The greatest pure goal scorer in NHL history." Shanahan digs ditches but also had two 50 goal seasons and four 40+ goal seasons. Barkov is a 3x Selke winner and would have been a Conn Smythe winner in most years if Bobrovsky wasn't around, and even then it was iffy after some of those Bob performances in the final.

I'm arguing for a push with my top five-man unit and SV's, and I think I have one. Especially with Clapper sitting in for the tough minutes at RD next to Potvin.

LineSunnyvale offenseMontreal offenseDifference
Line 1272.0248.3Sunnyvale +23.7 (not including Potvin's input...) WASH when you add in Barkov/Potvin/McCrimmon-Clapper/Dryden.
Line 2241.7220.4Sunnyvale +21.3 (not counting Sittler huge playoff decline, and Hay's trace playoff scoring) When you take into account the size and all-around play of Kopitar/Moose Johnson/Clapper... Hay-Sittler-Morris plus Cleghorn's offense (vs Clapper, which is only fair to include if I'm adding in Potvin above), but again Sittler declined come playoff time 65%. I'LL SAY THIS IS A WASH ALSO. Exact same scenario as line 1.
Line 3173.2218.6Montreal +45.4 Nash-Sundin-Rantanen vs Gainey-Bergeron-M.Tkachuk. Bergeron's line will supress. I buy it. WASH.
Line 4178.9137.7 + Scotty DavidsonDavidson needs only 41.2 to pass (and he was later considered a proto-Bill Cook type), and Point's numbers improve come playoff time. If you team them up with Pratt you have PIMs and poor defense. Potvin will pair with McAvoy on many occasions so that's even more offense. You will have to slide an already busy Harvey down to compensate. LINE 4 IS A MTL WIN.
GoalieVezinaDrydenIE tries to argue that Vezina's longevity and solid career (there was talk that Benedict was actually the best of the era), vs Dryden's greatest goalie peak of all-time and 1971 heroics.

In a series this close having a big goalie who gives up no rebounds and has an impeccable track record matters.

In a game 7, I want Ken Dryden in nets.

That brings us to Braden Point as 4C and Scotty Davidson. If Scotty Davidson is worth only 50 by this scale, then the full forward offense becomes:

TeamTotal forward offense
Sunnyvale865.8
Montreal with Davidson at 50875.0
Montreal with Davidson at 60885.0

That is not “woefully unbalanced offensively.”

That is, at worst, a wash. At best, Montreal has a deeper scoring distribution and more balanced defensive structure, and yes SIZE for the playoffs.

Weighted by projected five-on-five minutes

Using the 16 / 14 / 13 / 7 minute split:

TeamWeighted forwards offenseResult
Sunnyvale224.8Baseline
Montreal with Davidson at 50224.3Essential wash
Montreal with Davidson at 60225.7Slight Montreal edge
Montreal with Davidson at 70227.1Montreal edge

So even if we accept IE’s raw offensive framing, the result is basically even before matchup value.

Then matchup value matters.

Where the playoff translation helps Montreal

This is where I think the raw historical totals start to overstate Sunnyvale’s actual scoring path.

Player / unitRegular season casePlayoff / matchup issue
SittlerStrong regular-season scorerMajor playoff drop; not the line where Sunnyvale should expect to recover offense
Bergeron lineElite suppressionIf it is suppressing, it is not also carrying the scoring load
PointBuried at 4CPlayoff offense rises and gives Montreal unusual depth scoring
PotvinNot counted in the forward totalsAdds a direct attacking engine from the back end
DrydenNot part of offenseReduces the cheap second-chance goals Sunnyvale’s scorers need in a low-event series

IE is right that Sunnyvale has more traditional assist finishes.

But assist finishes are not the same thing as offense surviving this matchup.

Montreal’s offense is not one playmaker feeding one shooter. It is built through possession layers: Barkov connecting, Kopitar controlling, Sundin/Rantanen forcing heavy shifts, Point attacking from the fourth line, and Potvin joining the rush.

So the scoring question remains:

If Line 1 is compressed and Line 3 is mostly suppression, where does Sunnyvale get enough goals?

The raw numbers do not answer that as cleanly as IE suggests. In fact, his own totals show the forward offense as essentially even once Montreal’s third line and Scotty Davidson are counted.

Sunnyvale has the brighter top-line headline.

Montreal has the deeper scoring distribution, the better playoff translation in key places, the center spine, Potvin’s activation, and Dryden behind the low-event structure.

As was argued last series, Sunnyvale has some top-six pieces that need the stars around them.

***

Didier Pitre playoff stats, 1 assist in two games and 13 PIMs. The big line of Malone-Lalonde-Pitre mostly fizzled in the playoffs after that big offensive season. Malone had 1 goal in 2 games. Only Lalonde was his usual bombastic self - he had 4 goals, 2 assists in the two games... BUT 17 penalty minutes.
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Sunnyvale’s playoff translation problem

Sunnyvale does not have a team-wide playoff collapse problem.

But the drop-offs hit in exactly the places where Sunnyvale needs secondary offense if Line 1 is compressed.

Sunnyvale playerRegular-season casePlayoff issueSeries effect
Darryl SittlerStrong regular-season scorer; 1.02 PPG0.36 playoff PPG; roughly a 65% declineMajor problem if Sunnyvale needs Line 2 to recover offense
George HayGood regular-season/consolidated offensive caseLimited playoff scoring; 3 points in 8 playoff gamesUseful player, but not a major playoff scoring answer
Bernie MorrisStrong historical scorer with a huge 1917 SCFOne massive spike, not a repeated playoff baselineDangerous, but volatile as the main secondary scoring answer
Joe MullenStrong goal scorer; roughly 0.99 RS PPGDrops to roughly 0.77 playoff PPGStill dangerous, but not enough. By contrast, MTL's big 4th line scorer Point is 0.97 PPG in the playoffs and 0.48 goals/game.
Fleming Mackell0.55 RS PPG0.79 PO PPG, but from a low base; also 0.91 playoff PIM/GNot a drop-off case; the issue is low offensive ceiling plus penalties
Bob GaineyElite defensive specialistCan score in moments, but not a regular offense sourceelite checker, limited regular offense
Didier PitreGreat historical goal-getterIn the famous 1917-18 MLP playoff sample: 1 assist and 13 PIM in 2 gamesTop-line pressure point: the regular-season machine did not translate cleanly

That is why the scoring question keeps coming back to the same place.

If Sunnyvale’s Line 1 is compressed, where does the secondary offense come from?

  • Sittler is the biggest issue. A strong regular-season scorer becoming a measly 0.36 PPG playoff player is not a minor footnote. That is exactly the kind of decline that matters in a low-event series.
  • Hay helps the line structurally, but he is not a major playoff scorer.
  • Morris is dangerous, but his playoff argument leans heavily on one giant God-mode run.
  • Mullen can finish, but even he declines from his regular-season scoring level.
  • The Bergeron line is elite, but it is elite primarily because it suppresses. If it is being used to smother Sundin/Rantanen, then it is not also solving Barkov/Bossy, Kopitar/Anderson, and Point underneath.
  • That is the difference in playoff translation.
  • Montreal has Point buried at 4C, Anderson’s playoff value on Line 2, Sundin/Rantanen driving a heavy third line, and Potvin adding direct offense from the back end.

Sunnyvale has the louder top-line scoring headline.

Montreal has more scoring that survives if the game gets tight, low-event, physical, and layered.
 
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7. Montreal is Woefully Unbalanced Offensively

Beyond the fact that Montreal has a historically bad offensive group in the ATD, it's lacking playmakers that can be relied on to facilitate consistently, especially against the quality defensive team that is the Sunnyvale Shithawks.

Let's take a look at the collective, historical top 10 assist finishes for each team: Consolidated finishes for Sunnyvale's early era players are included.

Montreal - 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10
Sunnyvale - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9

Bossy, your best goal scorer, by far, is also your primary facilitator, historically speaking. That isn't a good thing in a team building exercise. That's not to say Bossy needed or needs Wayne Gretzky or even Trottier to be successful. Rather that it does place more of a burden on a guy who should be primarily focused on scoring goals, not handling the lions share of the playmaking role on the top unit.

Is Shanahan a reliable puck winner in a corner? Sure. Is he someone who should be looked at as making pinpoint passes and generating robust chances for others? I don't think so.

When you lack creativity, vision, and historical data on an ATD scale, guys like Harvey, Stevens, Bergeron, and Gainey are going to have a field day IMO.

Special Teams coming up next.
I can accept that Sunnyvale has the cleaner traditional playmaking profile. That is a real edge.

But in this series, Montreal does not need to win a freewheeling playmaking contest.

Montreal needs to compress Line 1, grind Line 2 to a push, make Line 3 a suppression wash, win the Point minutes, and trust Dryden in a low-event series.

I give Sunnyvale the slight special-teams edge, but I think that edge is compressed by Sunnyvale’s PIMs, Montreal’s cleaner play, the PK structure, and Dryden behind it.

That is why I see this as about as tight as it gets.

As Danny Gallivan might say: 'And in a series this tight, when the puck is pinballing through the slot and every inch of ice has to be earned, I’ll entrust the whole magnificent contraption to Big 6'6" (adjusted size) Dryden — standing tall behind Montreal’s playoff-sized barricade of center depth, layered defense, and wonderfully obstinate structure, built for precisely this kind of Sunnyvale siege.'

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