Subban's next contract

[Wats]

MB's job is to get Subban signed at the lowest possible number. If that means PK has to sweat it out then so be it. No one will make any kind of offer for him because it's only a waste of time.

No one will want to mess with MTL by offer sheeting Subban because they might what exactly? Habs are in no position to counter offersheet and have openly stated they don't want to trade their 1st. Habs don't exactly make a ton of deals either so it's not like whoever offersheets Subban will lose much in terms of a trade partner. If Habs match, it creates a crappy internal situation where the Habs basically admit to lowballing him.

 

[417]

Art ross?? What trophy had PK won to justify giving him 5 x 5 at that time?

None...people just wanted Habs to sign him to a 5x5 type of deal because

A. Other teams were 'locking up' their young stars before they proved anything

B. Because on the surface, it 'seems' way more cost efficient (even though in the long run, it's not)

 

[Wats]

None...people just wanted Habs to sign him to a 5x5 type of deal because

A. Other teams were 'locking up' their young stars before they proved anything

B. Because on the surface, it 'seems' way more cost efficient (even though in the long run, it's not)

Except the same people who didn't want PK at 5x5 are scared that he might not be worth a long term deal now...essentially making their ideal contract 4-5 year term.

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

That's a great approach...are you going to do the same with Galchenyuk too?

I prefer the approach of a GM taking advantage of the RFA system to its fullest potential before handing over a player a huge contract.

Again...a player's Entry-Level Contract and RFA years are the only times teams can control their salaries. After that, the players in the drivers seat

If teams forego the opportunity to control players salary when they can, then it sets a precendent that they may not be able to keep going forward.

I'm sorry, but precedence does not work here. Keep arguing it, I will keep ignoring it. (Look lower for more detail to why no player can match Subbans NHL credentials at 22 years old).

Art ross?? What trophy had PK won to justify giving him 5 x 5 at that time?

5 x 5 for me was so easy. His stats for the season of 11-12 were on average with D players in the NHL making 4.5 M. So for him to get 5x5 over the length of that contract, knowing that as a 22 year old, being worth 4.5 M, he is going to get better. The player we have all watched from day 1, coming in against Philly, grabbing 2 points in 2 games. Coming in the playoffs in 09-10, 8 points in 14 games, shutting down Crosby. 5M for Subban is a steal. I knew it in 2012, I know it still today. The trophy reference is for the "precedence" argument, if a player asks to negate the bridge contract, you show them Subbans credentials and say "You think you're that good?". Only an incompetent, or greedy agent will keep talking.

 

[417]

Except the same people who didn't want PK at 5x5 are scared that he might not be worth a long term deal now...essentially making their ideal contract 4-5 year term.

Who cares though lol

The only people that matter is the Habs and Subban...and both parties want to be and stay in Montreal long term.

That's all that really matters

 

[417]

I'm sorry, but precedence does not work here. Keep arguing it, I will keep ignoring it. (Look lower for more detail to why no player can match Subbans NHL credentials at 22 years old).

What 'credentials' were those?

Other than being a very good, young and promising player...which i'm not even sure you can consider those 'credentials'. Subban had proved nothing.

Now, he's got a Norris trophy as his credentials...

And how does precendence not work...when you used an example of it in the post I quoted? lol

 

[Kriss E]

None...people just wanted Habs to sign him to a 5x5 type of deal because

A. Other teams were 'locking up' their young stars before they proved anything

B. Because on the surface, it 'seems' way more cost efficient (even though in the long run, it's not)

C. Because it saves us the headache of having to find room to fit PK-Markov-Eller-Emelin (at the time unsigned)- Gionta, and hopefully make a strong push for an UFA (which we now acquired via trade in Vanek).

It simply avoids you having to deal with one extra big contract while also saving cash over the next 3 years.
You're always reaching for the end in order to make your point. At the end of his career, PK will have grabbed pretty much the same amount of cash. Sure. But nobody gives two craps about that and that is far from being the issue.
Around 3M extra cap space over the next 3 years, that's what is being discussed. 3 years from now, will PK be worth 10M? Who freaking knows. He was worth around 5x5 2 years ago, and he was going to cost us more at the end of his bridge deal. Does this mean the Habs are in a craphole? No. It's just money that could have been saved via Subban that just won't be anymore.
Year 3-4-5 of Bergevin's tenure are the years where we need to save as much cash as possible from any of our own players so we can make strong pushes over the free agency market.
If Bergevin ends up spending the money on another Briere, well that sucks, but that is irrelevant. Point is we have that extra cash to do whatever is needed.

 

[Kriss E]

anymore? im babbling about you being wrong on subban's value because from what I read on your post subban was the new GOLLLDEN BOY

We agreed on the same value genius.

 

[417]

5 x 5 for me was so easy. His stats for the season of 11-12 were on average with D players in the NHL making 4.5 M. So for him to get 5x5 over the length of that contract, knowing that as a 22 year old, being worth 4.5 M, he is going to get better. The player we have all watched from day 1, coming in against Philly, grabbing 2 points in 2 games. Coming in the playoffs in 09-10, 8 points in 14 games, shutting down Crosby. 5M for Subban is a steal. I knew it in 2012, I know it still today. The trophy reference is for the "precedence" argument, if a player asks to negate the bridge contract, you show them Subbans credentials and say "You think you're that good?". Only an incompetent, or greedy agent will keep talking.

You're right...his stats on average were on part with similar players in the NHL making 4.5M

But the Habs did not HAVE to pay him that kind of salary because he was an RFA and THEY could control his earnings.

This is something that's built in for teams to take advantage of to control their player's salaries.

Some teams (see Oilers) choose not to take that opportunity...the Habs did

 

[Adriatic]

I'm sorry, but precedence does not work here. Keep arguing it, I will keep ignoring it. (Look lower for more detail to why no player can match Subbans NHL credentials at 22 years old).



5 x 5 for me was so easy. His stats for the season of 11-12 were on average with D players in the NHL making 4.5 M. So for him to get 5x5 over the length of that contract, knowing that as a 22 year old, being worth 4.5 M, he is going to get better. The player we have all watched from day 1, coming in against Philly, grabbing 2 points in 2 games. Coming in the playoffs in 09-10, 8 points in 14 games, shutting down Crosby. 5M for Subban is a steal. I knew it in 2012, I know it still today. The trophy reference is for the "precedence" argument, if a player asks to negate the bridge contract, you show them Subbans credentials and say "You think you're that good?". Only an incompetent, or greedy agent will keep talking.

So because his stats for one season were on average with other NHL players you want to match salary just like that. At the beginning of the season Lars Eller could've just said my stats from last year are pretty similar to Kovalchuk, Bergeron or Marleau, I'm only 24 years old and will only get better..so therefore i'm worth 6 million. You'd be perrrfect to run the Oilers!

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

What 'credentials' were those?

Other than being a very good, young and promising player...which i'm not even sure you can consider those 'credentials'. Subban had proved nothing.

Now, he's got a Norris trophy as his credentials...

And how does precendence not work...when you used an example of it in the post I quoted? lol

Because I used it in jest to compromise your point of view, does not mean "I used it".

You're right, grabbing 8 points in 14 NHL playoffs games, after playing a total of 2 NHL games in his career, doesn't speak volume for this kids potential. Sure let's ignore everything. I call them credentials, you call them what you want. At the end of the day, he impressed us all.

In 10-11, the habs sucked. He on the other hand had a decent year. That year he averaged the stats of defencemen in the NHL making 4.5 M. Again these are credentials to me. Proof that we have a player here worth investing in.

Arguments will always be arguments. Ignoring that Subban deserved 4.5 M out of his ELC is just being ignorant. Yes yes... MB had the right to give him a bridge contract, blah blah blah. I see a player worth 4.5 M and in 5 years he will be worth double that. All he wants is 5x5? Pretty simple math to know you are saving money.

Now you are going to talk about "oh what if". Well if you doubted Subbans resolve, that's your choice. Unfortunately MB screwed up his chance to have two great players well under market value. (PK and Max)

 

[CrAzYNiNe]

You're right...his stats on average were on part with similar players in the NHL making 4.5M

But the Habs did not HAVE to pay him that kind of salary because he was an RFA and THEY could control his earnings.

This is something that's built in for teams to take advantage of to control their player's salaries.

Some teams (see Oilers) choose not to take that opportunity...the Habs did

Take advantage of what? Hurt yourself in 2 years? No advantage do do the bridge deal, except one tiny short term window.

So because his stats for one season were on average with other NHL players you want to match salary just like that. At the beginning of the season Lars Eller could've just said my stats from last year are pretty similar to Kovalchuk, Bergeron or Marleau, I'm only 24 years old and will only get better..so therefore i'm worth 6 million. You'd be perrrfect to run the Oilers!

I'm really not sure what you are getting at. Are you talking about 10 game sample? Because if you are, I think you're smarter then that. If you are talking about those players numbers at the same age (24), if they had numbers like Eller did, none of those players making 6 M at 24.

I don't get it?

 

[Adriatic]

Take advantage of what? Hurt yourself in 2 years? No advantage do do the bridge deal, except one tiny short term window.



I'm really not sure what you are getting at. Are you talking about 10 game sample? Because if you are, I think you're smarter then that. If you are talking about those players numbers at the same age (24), if they had numbers like Eller did, none of those players making 6 M at 24.

I don't get it?

Last year Eller had similar statistics to the players mentioned above. Does that entitle him to the same salary?

 

[417]

Because I used it in jest to compromise your point of view, does not mean "I used it".

You're right, grabbing 8 points in 14 NHL playoffs games, after playing a total of 2 NHL games in his career, doesn't speak volume for this kids potential. Sure let's ignore everything. I call them credentials, you call them what you want. At the end of the day, he impressed us all.

In 10-11, the habs sucked. He on the other hand had a decent year. That year he averaged the stats of defencemen in the NHL making 4.5 M. Again these are credentials to me. Proof that we have a player here worth investing in.

Arguments will always be arguments. Ignoring that Subban deserved 4.5 M out of his ELC is just being ignorant. Yes yes... MB had the right to give him a bridge contract, blah blah blah. I see a player worth 4.5 M and in 5 years he will be worth double that. All he wants is 5x5? Pretty simple math to know you are saving money.

Now you are going to talk about "oh what if". Well if you doubted Subbans resolve, that's your choice. Unfortunately MB screwed up his chance to have two great players well under market value. (PK and Max)

Sigh...you're missing the point.

Just because he deserves it...does not mean you give it to him when YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

When in 5 years, Subban is worth double 4.5M, then they'll pay him that. And they'll offset that cost by paying less for their next up-and-coming young RFA player who they will sign to a bridge contract because...yes, you got it, this is their organizational standard.

 

[417]

Take advantage of what? Hurt yourself in 2 years? No advantage do do the bridge deal, except one tiny short term window.

Hurt themselves in 2 years? How?

because they'll pay Subban more this summer than they would have last year?

Again...low-hanging fruit.

Had the habs signed Subban to a 5x5 deal last year...that would mean that Subban would have 3 years remaining at 5M/yr at this point.

Can we agree that in 3 years from now, Subban is going to be a much, MUCH better player than he is now???? We agree??? Good

Knowing that and knowing that the cap keeps rising, what do you think it's giong to cost to sign PK Subban in 3 years from now? when he's 27 yrs old and in the PRIME of his career?

I know I feel much more comfortable that this summer, they're going to sign Subban to an 7-8 year deal which will take him way past his prime years on an average salary of 7-8M...

But hey...that's just me

 

[Kriss E]

Hurt themselves in 2 years? How?

because they'll pay Subban more this summer than they would have last year?

Again...low-hanging fruit.

Had the habs signed Subban to a 5x5 deal last year...that would mean that Subban would have 3 years remaining at 5M/yr at this point.

Can we agree that in 3 years from now, Subban is going to be a much, MUCH better player than he is now???? We agree??? Good

Knowing that and knowing that the cap keeps rising, what do you think it's giong to cost to sign PK Subban in 3 years from now? when he's 27 yrs old and in the PRIME of his career?

I know I feel much more comfortable that this summer, they're going to sign Subban to an 7-8 year deal which will take him way past his prime years on an average salary of 7-8M...

But hey...that's just me

Sure, Subban will likely be much better in 3 years, but what about the team? The point was to have PK cheaper for year 3-4-5 under Bergevin because those are the years we'd likely be going for it, or at least aim for it.
Where will the team be in 3 years is completely unforeseeable at this point. We would have given ourselves a locked PK for 5years, with other players in or entering their prime within that time frame as well. You're arguing that years 3-4-5 shouldn't really bothered with, what is really important is how much PK will cost in the 6th year, despite knowing jack crap about the team or where the cap will be. It really doesn't make much sense, and sounds more like a big reach to justify the bridge deal.

 

[417]

Sure, Subban will likely be much better in 3 years, but what about the team? The point was to have PK cheaper for year 3-4-5 under Bergevin because those are the years we'd likely be going for it, or at least aim for it.
Where will the team be in 3 years is completely unforeseeable at this point. We would have given ourselves a locked PK for 5years, with other players in or entering their prime within that time frame as well. You're arguing that years 3-4-5 shouldn't really bothered with, what is really important is how much PK will cost in the 6th year, despite knowing jack crap about the team or where the cap will be. It really doesn't make much sense, and sounds more like a big reach to justify the bridge deal.

the goal was to have PK cheaper in years 3-4-5 because those are the years the Habs will likely be 'going for it'???? Lol where do you come up with this stuff?

Look at the Habs right now...does it look like Bergevin wants to win in 3 years from now??? lol

I think MB wants to win now, next year and every year of his tenure here.

And you're saying I'M reaching??? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here...

Furthermore, ONE player's contract can't dictate the fortune's of a franchise singlehandedly...

Bergevin doesn't even know if he'll be here in 3 years...and you're telling me that the goal should have been to sign Subban for cheaper when Habs are 'ready to win' in years 3-4-5 of his deal?

You're trying to tell me that the Habs entire strategy of building a winner is to structure PK Subban's deal a certain for it to be cheap so that in the 3rd, 4th and 5th year of his deal...they can compete????

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds????