Subban Contract Talk IX - yeah...

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Andy

Registered User
Jun 26, 2008
31,803
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Nonsense. They have their core of Toews/Kane/Keith/Hossa locked up long term, with a considerable discount on Keith and Hossa. They have some great young players coming up in Saad, Teravainen and Schmaltz. They have pieces to move that will not gut their roster. This is how I would like to see the Habs is a few years with Subban/Price/Patches/Gallys locked up long term.

Not to mention that the real problem is allocating 4 million dollars to middle 6 players like Bickell, 2 million to a fringe player like Versteeg and having an aging bottom pairing D at 2.2 million.

Chicago also benefits from cap relief by not forcing bridge deals on their stars after their ELC. They get significant cap savings in paying for potential on longer term

By refusing to follow this method of cap savings, MB has closed himself off from ever getting significant savings on his best players longer term. In forcing bridge deals he will repeatedly get Subban scenarios.
 

Andy

Registered User
Jun 26, 2008
31,803
15,578
Montreal
Exactly. Lock up the core. Make smart decisions with peripheral players and move them when necessary, but the #1 priority is to keep the core. Chicago took a lot of criticism when they paid the core and moved the middle part of their team (Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, Niemi, Burish, Brouwer, Madden), but they did the right thing. You can find depth. Players like Subban are so rare, you don't let them become available.

They even won the cup with a whole different cast of complimentary and periphery players. These aforementioned players were successfully replaced by Bickell, Shaw, Kruger, Leddy, Oduya, Saad. You need to compliment your core well to win, but the important thing is that you have a core to compliment.
 

Phil Parent

Sorel, 'fant d'chienne!
Feb 4, 2005
15,833
5,666
Sorel-Tracy, Quebec
So it took 17 hours to clear this thread to 1000 posts... and that was overnight

Well, all the regulars are here, more than a few notorious loud mouths, a couple out-of-towners, and a bunch of lurkers came out the woodworks too.

This whole thing's an amazing mess, but it sure makes the board active per summer standards...
 

Newhabfan

Registered User
Sep 3, 2008
2,300
0
Montreal
Out of the last decade SC finalists and winners name me one team that had

- one player on contract for more than 5-6 years
- highest paid player making 1.5 times more than the next one on the line.

Name me one team that signed a player for 8yrs+ and had success with it.

This emotional "Give him the money" thing is getting ridiculous. In the NFL you can get rid of a bad contract any time you want. No guarantees, short success lifespan for any player.

And this comes from people who wanted Bourque or Paccioretty out for a bag of pucks. That wanted Price dealt away instead of Halak. And so on.

I'm happy MB is not trading our future to please emotional fans. So many GMs sign players for 8+ years when they know they won't likely be there for the end of the contract. If he gives PK the money then he gets injured or simply less awesome, the same people will rip him apart like they did with Gainey or others.
 

InTheWrist

Registered User
May 24, 2011
71
6
ok lemme break it down for you uneducated people

as much as surgeons and others "deserve" to get PAID MORE
the bottom line is

whatever work you're doing, generates A LOT OF MONEY
therefore you should get a lot of that money

another example, Mark Zuckerberg
there's no rocket science oh no a hockey player gets paid more than a surgeon !

I'm always bemused by those who compare the salaries of doctors, teachers, firemen to major athletes, musician and actors; and then complain about latter earning too much money while offering little "real" value to society.

The world does not reward you base on the importance of what you do, but on the scarcity of it. which is sad, but in reality, how many newborns today can become doctors, teachers and firemen. While it is no walk in the park, it is very doable.

Becoming the next Lars Eller however, (i'm not even going to bother with Crosby, Kane and the Subbans of this world) you're s**t out of luck!
 

Andy

Registered User
Jun 26, 2008
31,803
15,578
Montreal
Name me one team that signed a player for 8yrs+ and had success with it.

This is meaningless because the cap is ever changing and therefore so are the contracts handed out.

Chicago won two cups with Hossa and Keith on an insanely long-term deals. They even almost won a third last year.

LA just won the cup and Quick has a 10 year deal.
 

Cole Caulifield

Registered User
Apr 22, 2004
27,967
2,465
I'm always bemused by those who compare the salaries of doctors, teachers, firemen to major athletes, musician and actors; and then complain about latter earning too much money while offering little "real" value to society.

The world does not reward you base on the importance of what you do, but on the scarcity of it. which is sad, but in reality, how many newborns today can become doctors, teachers and firemen. While it is no walk in the park, it is very doable.

Becoming the next Lars Eller however, (i'm not even going to bother with Crosby, Kane and the Subbans of this world) you're s**t out of luck!

I was being facetious !!!!! jeeze..

I guess the sarcasm really wasn't obvious.
 

Subban signed e5

Registered User
Jun 21, 2012
903
134
This is meaningless because the cap is ever changing and therefore so are the contracts handed out.

Chicago won two cups with Hossa and Keith on an insanely long-term deals. They even almost won a third last year.

LA just won the cup and Quick has a 10 year deal.
Marian Hossa in Chicago 2 cups is worth the cap penalty's when he retires
 

Wats

Error 520
Mar 8, 2006
42,034
6,717
Out of the last decade SC finalists and winners name me one team that had

- one player on contract for more than 5-6 years
- highest paid player making 1.5 times more than the next one on the line.

Name me one team that signed a player for 8yrs+ and had success with it.

This emotional "Give him the money" thing is getting ridiculous. In the NFL you can get rid of a bad contract any time you want. No guarantees, short success lifespan for any player.

And this comes from people who wanted Bourque or Paccioretty out for a bag of pucks. That wanted Price dealt away instead of Halak. And so on.

I'm happy MB is not trading our future to please emotional fans. So many GMs sign players for 8+ years when they know they won't likely be there for the end of the contract. If he gives PK the money then he gets injured or simply less awesome, the same people will rip him apart like they did with Gainey or others.

Well ignoring the Hawks and Kings who have Richards/Carter/Brown/Hossa/Doughty/Quick/Keith all signed 8+ years pre-cup, what about all the bad teams with one or less players on contract for more than 5-6 years and no high price players? Or maybe is the quality of players actually what determines how good a team is...
 

yusuf83

Registered User
Nov 27, 2013
14
0
Out of the last decade SC finalists and winners name me one team that had

- one player on contract for more than 5-6 years
- highest paid player making 1.5 times more than the next one on the line.

Name me one team that signed a player for 8yrs+ and had success with it.

This emotional "Give him the money" thing is getting ridiculous. In the NFL you can get rid of a bad contract any time you want. No guarantees, short success lifespan for any player.

And this comes from people who wanted Bourque or Paccioretty out for a bag of pucks. That wanted Price dealt away instead of Halak. And so on.

I'm happy MB is not trading our future to please emotional fans. So many GMs sign players for 8+ years when they know they won't likely be there for the end of the contract. If he gives PK the money then he gets injured or simply less awesome, the same people will rip him apart like they did with Gainey or others.

The problem with your logic is that someone will pay PK what he is asking. At least substantial more than Habs are willing to pay. So this strategy you advocate relies on PK giving into Habs. They have played chicken with him and lost.

So at this point the next step is to either pay him or trade him ASAP to salvage as much value as you can. Unfortunately huge chunk was lost already by getting to this stage.
 

Brainiac

Registered Offender
Feb 17, 2013
12,709
610
Montreal
Somebody should post right on top of the new thread all the reports on twitter that had numbers about what was offered from both parts.
 

Hoople

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
16,193
121
Seriously? The broader point which you choose to ignore is that you can more easily manage the salary cap by taking the replaceable parts of the team and finding cheap alternatives. But since you asked...

For now, we can carry the roster as we have it and still pay PK 9M (of even 9+) without any problem. Issue then comes up for next offseason.

Moen and Prust did not play that much of a role in the playoffs, so I'd say their role in getting the team to the ECF is not as key as you'd like it to sound. Prust's cap hit is 2.5 but actual salary is 2.0 so trading him for a pick shouldn't be that hard. Moen might have to be bought out (saving another 1.1M or so) but perhaps the team could trade him too, even if retaining a half million, to a team looking for a vet with a Cup ring.

Budaj is gone, Tokarski is already under contract for 800K less. Sign one of the multitude of pluggers available in UFA for about $1M to take Prust's spot if you must. That's about $3M saved and the team has not lost one thing.

If you need significant savings still, then trading a bigger contract like PAP or Bourque (again, for a low pick is fine) might be needed, again replace that player with a cheap UFA or let one of the prospects (DLR etc.) play at about $1M. That plus any cap increase would be more than enough.

I think where some people go off the rails here is looking as the massive raise PK is going to get vs the bridge deal. Yes, PK at $6M more than his bridge deal adds a big number to the payroll. Yes, PK eating up $6M more makes it harder to sign some other big name UFA, presuming he exists.

But in a league where Letang gets 7.3 and Phaneuf gets 7 and Brandon Dubinsky gets almost 6, that's cost of doing business.

This all sounds good. But can you really do it?

Prust at $2.5 was a helluva deal for the Habs.......until his injuries started. Now, he is known around the NHL as damaged goods. Would you trade for him now as a GM in the NHL? After all, you are proclaiming that replacements for him are a dime a dozen.

Answer.........No. You would not trade for him.

Moen. Same as Prust. Declining offensively. Cant really play the physical enforcer role since his devastating concussion at the end of the season. Replacements are a dime a dozen. Would you trade for him? Answer........No.

You are also forgetting that the Habs are out of compliance buyouts. Already used their two. Cant do that.

The Habs shopped Bourque furiously at the trade deadline last season. He is an enigma. Great when he wants to be but only for about 10% of the time. Looking at his $3.3 Cap Hit, NO ONE in the League wanted to touch the Gauthier mistake. NO ONE. So that one is out.

PAP. PAP will probably be playing on our top line. He was brought here for offense, a commodity that was missing last season.

So you want to trade PAP, a forward who potentially can produce 50 points just to give more money to a DMan who finally hit 50 points last season? Think about that for a second. And when you think about it rationally, that is the definition of insanity........or fanboyism.

So there you go. All of the pie-in-the sky what "the Habs should do to make room for PK's ego and salary" is totally fantasy hockey. It wont happen. It cant happen.

That's what derails the fanboys. Reality in a Cap World and the need to focus on the team first.
 

Roulin

Registered User
Mar 21, 2007
4,242
1
Montreal
This all sounds good. But can you really do it?

Prust at $2.5 was a helluva deal for the Habs.......until his injuries started. Now, he is known around the NHL as damaged goods. Would you trade for him now as a GM in the NHL? After all, you are proclaiming that replacements for him are a dime a dozen.

Answer.........No. You would not trade for him.

Moen. Same as Prust. Declining offensively. Cant really play the physical enforcer role since his devastating concussion at the end of the season. Replacements are a dime a dozen. Would you trade for him? Answer........No.

You are also forgetting that the Habs are out of compliance buyouts. Already used their two. Cant do that.

The Habs shopped Bourque furiously at the trade deadline last season. He is an enigma. Great when he wants to be but only for about 10% of the time. Looking at his $3.3 Cap Hit, NO ONE in the League wanted to touch the Gauthier mistake. NO ONE. So that one is out.

PAP. PAP will probably be playing on our top line. He was brought here for offense, a commodity that was missing last season.

So you want to trade PAP, a forward who potentially can produce 50 points just to give more money to a DMan who finally hit 50 points last season? Think about that for a second. And when you think about it rationally, that is the definition of insanity........or fanboyism.

So there you go. All of the pie-in-the sky what "the Habs should do to make room for PK's ego and salary" is totally fantasy hockey. It wont happen. It cant happen.

That's what derails the fanboys. Reality in a Cap World and the need to focus on the team first.

FORWARDS
Max Pacioretty ($4.500m) / David Desharnais ($3.500m) / P-A Parenteau ($4.000m)
Alex Galchenyuk ($0.925m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brendan Gallagher ($0.685m)
Dustin Penner ($0.900m) / Lars Eller ($3.500m) / Rene Bourque ($3.333m)
Brandon Prust ($2.500m) / Manny Malhotra ($0.850m) / Dale Weise ($1.025m)
Travis Moen ($1.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / P.K. Subban ($10.000m)
Nathan Beaulieu ($0.925m) / Tom Gilbert ($2.800m)
Alexei Emelin ($4.100m) / Mike Weaver ($1.750m)
Magnus Nygren ($0.859m)
GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.500m)
Peter Budaj ($1.400m)
BUYOUTS
Tomas Kaberle ($0.000m)
Scott Gomez ($0.000m)
BONUS OVERAGE
$0
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,652,083; BONUSES: $2,901,250
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $2,347,917
 

Frankenheimer

Sir, this is an Arber
Feb 22, 2009
3,851
1,569
MTL
I don't see how Subban asking for a fair wage has anything to do with how much he likes Montreal. From what we've seen of him, he's probably the most implicated in his community and one of the guys that always 110% on the ice. He's the embodiment of the "CH tatoué sur le coeur", more than anybody else on this team.

After being grossly underpaid over the last two years, you can't honestly expect him to take yet another pay cut. Why would he? He knows what he's worth and deserves to get paid accordingly.

Let's put things into context. You one of the best specialist in a technology field and know you are easily able to fecth up to 100k a year on the job market, but you've been working for the same company since you got out of school and while you like very much there, you feel under appreciated by the boss and he won't offer you anything over 70k a year. What do you do?

These numbers times 100 and you get the big picture of the Subban situation.

I don't think we can, or should, extrapolate from a smaller wage bracket what should be the case in a higher one. Suppose that we were talking about billions of dollars and not millions and that the argument was over a difference of 8 or 8.5 billion. At some point you would recoil and think, holy christ that is a lot of money, stop arguing publicly about the fact that .5 billion in that context is a measure of respect or fair wage. Just be happy. Nobody in the real world gets that, no matter how many examples at my wage level you present.

We've grown accustomed to treating 5-6 million yearly wages as perfectly normal for a hockey player, so differences in that range don't cause any recoiling, but its a tremendous amount of money. As I said, I can rationalize this process to a certain degree, like you, and determine a "fair wage" relative to a bunch of contextual factors, like other wages, market value, etc, but there is a breaking point where nobody looks reasonable any longer. If there was a 64 million dollar contract on the table and Subban balked at that as being disrespectful, or not enough, the only conclusion I can take is that he doesn't believe anything he says about loving Montreal. That's just a ploy to make more money.

People say, hey Subban should get paid every penny he deserves, and he should if he wants, but if he really does love it here, and if he really does bleed red, white, and blue, and he's offered the biggest contract in the history of the Habs, and its 1.5 millon more than everyone else on your team makes, then he should take the 8 million per year and accept the fact he couldn't extract more money from management. That's life, sometimes you accept less to get more of the things you want. But don't tell me that he cares about being a Hab when he turned down 64 million. He cares about getting the most money possible. Fin.

The same is true of acting, sometimes you take less to work on a project you care about. The same is true of everyone, sometimes you take less to be a part of something you care about. I'm only taking Subban at his word when he says he loves the Habs and wants to stay here. If he said, I want the most money I can possibly make and that's my plan, fine, do that. It's your right and thank you for peeling off the mask and not screwing around with the fans.
 

Hoople

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
16,193
121
I'm biased for sure. I want the Montreal Canadiens to win cups. And we haven't sniffed a cup since we ran our last superstar out of town.

Its extremely difficult to land a player of Subban's talents. Guys like him come along once, maybe twice a draft. And the odds of you getting that player are next to impossible. And when you do get talent like that you hang onto it.

I don't give a **** about this from a political standpoint, I care about us winning cups again. ****ing around with PK isn't the way to do this.

MB is not doing what's best for the team. If he was, most posters would agree with him.

You've got it wrong. I want us to win cups. That's why I argued for a rebuild for years. You need superstars if you want to win. They are next to impossible to get.

If it comes out that MB could've signed him for less then 10 mil at 8 years per, you can add my name to the list that wants MB's head on a stick right now.

Sign him, get this BS over with and move on. Otherwise get the **** out of the GM chair and give the job to somebody who knows what he's doing. If MB really is forcing this **** over a million bucks he should be shot twice and pissed on. ****ing ridiculous to take Subban to arbitration over this.

I love this post LG.

You scream you want to win Cups. What happened when PK won a Norris. Best DMan in the League. Totally awesome on both sides, offense and defense.

Did we win a Cup? Subban is not the missing ingredient for winning a Cup. Subban's demands and your offers of giving him whatever he wants will not allow the Habs to sign that missing ingredient in the next 3-4 years.
 

Sterling Archer

Registered User
Sep 26, 2006
22,997
13,473
FORWARDS
Max Pacioretty ($4.500m) / David Desharnais ($3.500m) / P-A Parenteau ($4.000m)
Alex Galchenyuk ($0.925m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brendan Gallagher ($0.685m)
Dustin Penner ($0.900m) / Lars Eller ($3.500m) / Rene Bourque ($3.333m)
Brandon Prust ($2.500m) / Manny Malhotra ($0.850m) / Dale Weise ($1.025m)
Travis Moen ($1.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / P.K. Subban ($10.000m)
Nathan Beaulieu ($0.925m) / Tom Gilbert ($2.800m)
Alexei Emelin ($4.100m) / Mike Weaver ($1.750m)
Magnus Nygren ($0.859m)
GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.500m)
Peter Budaj ($1.400m)
BUYOUTS
Tomas Kaberle ($0.000m)
Scott Gomez ($0.000m)
BONUS OVERAGE
$0
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,652,083; BONUSES: $2,901,250
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $2,347,917

We're still missing a top line winger to be real contenders and what happens next year and the year after when we need to sign the kids moving up. The rise in cap won't be enough to compensate.

This type of thinking is incredibly short sighted. Need to see the Forrest from the trees.
 

Subban signed e5

Registered User
Jun 21, 2012
903
134
I love this post LG.

You scream you want to win Cups. What happened when PK won a Norris. Best DMan in the League. Totally awesome on both sides, offense and defense.

Did we win a Cup? Subban is not the missing ingredient for winning a Cup. Subban's demands and your offers of giving him whatever he wants will not allow the Habs to sign that missing ingredient in the next 3-4 years.
so beacuse subban did not carry us to the cup we should not pay him big bucks?
 

Hoople

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
16,193
121
FORWARDS
Max Pacioretty ($4.500m) / David Desharnais ($3.500m) / P-A Parenteau ($4.000m)
Alex Galchenyuk ($0.925m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brendan Gallagher ($0.685m)
Dustin Penner ($0.900m) / Lars Eller ($3.500m) / Rene Bourque ($3.333m)
Brandon Prust ($2.500m) / Manny Malhotra ($0.850m) / Dale Weise ($1.025m)
Travis Moen ($1.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / P.K. Subban ($10.000m)
Nathan Beaulieu ($0.925m) / Tom Gilbert ($2.800m)
Alexei Emelin ($4.100m) / Mike Weaver ($1.750m)
Magnus Nygren ($0.859m)
GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($6.500m)
Peter Budaj ($1.400m)
BUYOUTS
Tomas Kaberle ($0.000m)
Scott Gomez ($0.000m)
BONUS OVERAGE
$0
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,652,083; BONUSES: $2,901,250
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $2,347,917

A couple of problems.

You left Tinordi and Bournival out of the picture.

We will have 4 RFA's next season and suddenly your cap space is blown up.
 

Goldthorpe

Meditating Guru
Jan 22, 2003
5,076
813
Montreal
This is how I'll assign blame if Subban walks:

1) Subban: if Subban turned down an offer of 8 x 8 or higher

2) Bergevin: if Subban was asking for 9 x 8 but didn't make the offer.


Offers below 8 per year increase Bergevin's blame. Demands above 9 per year increase Subban's blame.

Beyond that, if everything Subban says is true about his love for this city, its fans, tradition, etc, and he turns down 8 million a year to play here, I just find that ridiculous and don't really take anything he says at face value anymore. We're just victims of someone extremely media savvy but who doesn't really believe all that.

I understand the concept of getting as much as you possibly can, but to a certain point... and I guess that point is when the ask threatens to reveal the cynicism of the business, that decisions and attitudes toward fans are ultimately about money and increasing money. The hardest part of all this is realizing how complicit I am as a fan in making these preposterous salaries possible and it turns me off from the game. This especially comes up when trying to explain all these dealings to third parties that have no vested interest and they blink with wonder at trying to understand the difference between 8 million or 9 million a year and that this is somehow about "respect." And when they ask, isn't 8 per year enough, there's not much context that justifies saying "no".

My thinking has always been there's a bit of self-denial and cognitive dissonance in recognizing the ridiculously huge salaries these guys make for playing a game and the pleasure and enjoyment of cheering for our team and believing that its done out of a sense of enjoyment and commitment to the jersey or city. And for the most part, that dissonance doesn't come into play much, so long as a situation doesn't arise that brings it to the forefront.

Agree 100%. Resume my own feelings very well, and I like your numbers.

In the end 8x8=64M is 64M, and arguing that it's not enough or disrespectful is useless. It shouldn't have come to that. Subban would still become to best paid player in the team, and would remain so for a long long time - the only one I could see signing a bigger contract is Galchenyuk if he develops very well, or Price's next contract if he win Vezinas or cups.
 

Hoople

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
16,193
121
NHL doesn't have to wait 2 years, just a few months before Habs get desperate. Also, clearly Habs don't value Subban highly and teams aren't blind to what's happening now. From July 1st 2015 to July 5th 2015 he is eligible for offersheets even if they take him to arbitration. If Subban himself goes to arbitration again, they then have until the hearing to trade him since his value will be shot after a 1 year award (basically will be a rental that can't have an extension decided on beforehand).

Based upon rumors, the Habs value PK the same as the other top DMen in the League and are willing to pay him very similar AAV.

It appears that the Habs do not value PK at an AAV approaching $10 million per.

Doubtful many other GMs do either.
 

groovejuice

Without deviation progress is not possible
Jun 27, 2011
19,277
18,222
Calgary
We're still missing a top line winger to be real contenders and what happens next year and the year after when we need to sign the kids moving up. The rise in cap won't be enough to compensate.

This type of thinking is incredibly short sighted. Need to see the Forrest from the trees.

More than a few of those trees can be pruned for the health of the forest.

The core of the team is it's real strength.
 
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