Prospect Info: Steve Dangle: The Prospect Pyramid

[McMatthews]

I don't understand what he was trying to do. Was he trying to create a ranking list that is less prone to debate? Why was he yelling so frequently?

Not sure. I'm a big fan of Dangle but this was one of the worst vids ever.

 

[LeafsRReady]

I don't understand what he was trying to do. Was he trying to create a ranking list that is less prone to debate? Why was he yelling so frequently?

Didn't watch the video because I don't love watching him but I have difficulty understanding what you don't understand. In his tier 2 why bother trying to say whether Marner is higher ranked than Nylander or vice versa. The next 2 years will help give the answer to that debate, but there should be no debate those two are a tier above the rest of the prospects. In tier 3 why worry who is the higher ranked prospect between Brown and Dermott - they are at a similar level.

Pretty easy to understand whether he yells or not.

 

[deletethis]

It must be a generational thing but I can't watch more than 10 seconds of this guy without getting the urge to stick sharp objects into my eyes and ears. Perhaps it's for an audience weened on that condescending 90's children's television and its amped up presenters.

 

[Leafsman]

I don't understand what he was trying to do. Was he trying to create a ranking list that is less prone to debate? Why was he yelling so frequently?

This was more in reference to rankings like a top 20 or top 25 and creating a ranking system that is less prone to opinion.

If one was to do a top 5 ranking, there would be very analytical and informed reasoning to each players position. If one was to do a top 10, there would still be informed reasons to each ranking but as you get deeper into the ranks, personal bias's and opinion start coming into play. If you do a top 20/25, the later rankings would include such marginal differences that it becomes very hard to justify one players rank over the others. Especially since you are looking at future potential which is not a known value but an estimated projection.

It just eliminates the arbitrary rankings of depth prospects whose differences are so slight that it becomes next to impossible to distinguish. It's much easier and more precise to categorize those prospects into skill classes like a 2nd tier player or a 4th tier player.

If you look at draft rankings in each draft year, as you get deeper in the draft those projected draft rankings become much less accurate. The top 10 projected are usually much better projected than the 100-110 projected players. Mainly because team's rely more on scout's opinions because the differences become so slight that the rankings are almost meaningless. Scouts may have a list of several players and the player drafted is merely a product of availability.

 

[showtime8]

I actually think this is a somewhat smart way to look at prospects.

You have the ability to have as many "tiers" as you want and doesn't limit you to the ability of a player's growth, but just a simple outlook as to where your prospects sit prior to a season.

 

[showtime8]

Didn't watch the video because I don't love watching him but I have difficulty understanding what you don't understand. In his tier 2 why bother trying to say whether Marner is higher ranked than Nylander or vice versa. The next 2 years will help give the answer to that debate, but there should be no debate those two are a tier above the rest of the prospects. In tier 3 why worry who is the higher ranked prospect between Brown and Dermott - they are at a similar level.

Pretty easy to understand whether he yells or not.

Yeah, this is what I took out of the video.

 

[Silent Knight]

I can assure you Sportsnet pays more than "Nickels"

My point still stands and was in response to the guy who was trying to make this about jealousy or whatever it was he was trying to convey from people who don't like Mr. Obnoxious. Sportsnet is foolish to have this attention starved human as a part of any segment they may push. It ruins their credibility, if they had much to begin with.

 

[Leafsman]

I actually think this is a somewhat smart way to look at prospects.

You have the ability to have as many "tiers" as you want and doesn't limit you to the ability of a player's growth, but just a simple outlook as to where your prospects sit prior to a season.

The really interesting and neat thing about this system. (Which also scares me into believing I need to get a life and stop being a hockey nerd.)

Is that the tiers almost define themselves within the prospect pool.

There is very little rational reasoning that any of our other prospects are in the same class as Matthews. Resulting in him being in a tier himself.

There is also quite a bit of rationale reasoning as to why Nylander and Marner are quite similar in potential but very little reasoning as to anybody else being included in similar potential - resulting in the second tier.

The weaker the reasoning to distinguish players, the more they should be included in the same tier.

What happens next year if Matthews, Marner and Nylander all graduate from being prospects?

There may be only 4 tiers instead of 6. There may be more players included in the first tier. This doesn't mean we have a better system, but a weaker first tier of players. Unless of course, the Leafs pull off some sweet moves or players distinguish themselves and prove a higher potential.

 

[Leafsman]

My point still stands and was in response to the guy who was trying to make this about jealousy or whatever it was he was trying to convey from people who don't like Mr. Obnoxious. Sportsnet is foolish to have this attention starved human as a part of any segment they may push. It ruins their credibility, if they had much to begin with.

I find his persona quite fitting to the fan base he represents.

He portrays the stereotypes of "over the top" Leaf fans who are prone to over-reactions and emotional responses. Some may even say this is not a stereotype and exactly the responses of Leaf fans.

I think if this hockey discussion board had a video blog, it would come out exactly like that.

It is almost ironic that a fanbase that many other fanbases would label "obnoxious" criticizes one of their fans for being obnoxious.

 

[Silent Knight]

I find his persona quite fitting to the fan base he represents.

He portrays the stereotypes of "over the top" Leaf fans who are prone to over-reactions and emotional responses. Some may even say this is not a stereotype and exactly the responses of Leaf fans.

I think if this hockey discussion board had a video blog, it would come out exactly like that.

It is almost ironic that a fanbase that many other fanbases would label "obnoxious" criticizes one of their fans for being obnoxious.

With all due respect... I find this "quite fitting" thing hard to digest.

1) It's quite fitting for all of us to be known as "over the top" and "obnoxious" and be prone to "overreactions"? I would say SOME fit this mold indeed as they do on every Teams board here, but to suggest our fans are all like this is not accurate.

2) I would not put myself in with the crowd who consider themselves "over the top" and I think this mentality is something we should work to eliminate not promote as something "good" from a fan base.

3) Steve Glynn, aside... there is a guy known as "The Hockey Guy" on YouTube he is actually a Canucks and Bruins fan with an affection for Dallas, as he says you have to watch his channel to find out why. This is someone who while I don't like the teams he supports I'd gladly watch any of his videos over attention starved Steve. He is very reasonable and he discusses ALL the teams and NEWS from around the league quite honestly and in a friendly and unbiased way.

I found him like many other Leaf fans during the draft lottery reaction video from him, he went on about the Leafs (in a positive way), more people should be like him and I'd bet it people on here decided to start a video channel like his (even if it only focused on the Leafs) it would be more like THIS and less obnoxious and in your face screaming like Steve.

Here's "The Hockey Guy" from his July 24th upload. Check him out if you're not familiar, he's not trying to be in your face or shocking or gimmicky in presentation, he's just being REAL. I admire that. Give him a Subscribe.

 

[Mr Hockey*]

So one guy makes videos in his bedroom and now this guy making videos in his living room

 

[Silent Knight]

So one guy makes videos in his bedroom and now this guy making videos in his living room

Where the videos are "made" is not the point, well maybe to someone on here it was, for me that wasn't what any of my postings were about at all.

 

[Ciao]

Not a fan of that genre of media but within that context I don't mind him too much. It's like hearing music you're just not into.

His ideas on grading talent are correct but not the least bit new or original. Grades are used for a lot of things and they fit within this context too.

 

[Ciao]

With all due respect... I find this "quite fitting" thing hard to digest.

1) It's quite fitting for all of us to be known as "over the top" and "obnoxious" and be prone to "overreactions"? I would say SOME fit this mold indeed as they do on every Teams board here, but to suggest our fans are all like this is not accurate.

2) I would not put myself in with the crowd who consider themselves "over the top" and I think this mentality is something we should work to eliminate not promote as something "good" from a fan base.

3) Steve Glynn, aside... there is a guy known as "The Hockey Guy" on YouTube he is actually a Canucks and Bruins fan with an affection for Dallas, as he says you have to watch his channel to find out why. This is someone who while I don't like the teams he supports I'd gladly watch any of his videos over attention starved Steve. He is very reasonable and he discusses ALL the teams and NEWS from around the league quite honestly and in a friendly and unbiased way.

I found him like many other Leaf fans during the draft lottery reaction video from him, he went on about the Leafs (in a positive way), more people should be like him and I'd bet it people on here decided to start a video channel like his (even if it only focused on the Leafs) it would be more like THIS and less obnoxious and in your face screaming like Steve.

Here's "The Hockey Guy" from his July 24th upload. Check him out if you're not familiar, he's not trying to be in your face or shocking or gimmicky in presentation, he's just being REAL. I admire that. Give him a Subscribe.

People watch this?

Not for me. Thanks.

 

[93LEAFS]

Dangle's terrible, but he has a good point here (I could care less about his rankings), any list done in regards to prospects should note where there is a tier drop. It is one of the reasons I really like Pronman's work. McKenzie tries to clarify how voting breaks down but it is tough for him to break down tiers as it is not really his list.

On a side note, anyone remember that Leaf fan (who may of been slightly challenged) who kept on talking about the leafs playoff march and would occasionally throw things. I miss that guy, he was much better than Dangle entertainment wise.

 

[Leafsman]

With all due respect... I find this "quite fitting" thing hard to digest.

1) It's quite fitting for all of us to be known as "over the top" and "obnoxious" and be prone to "overreactions"? I would say SOME fit this mold indeed as they do on every Teams board here, but to suggest our fans are all like this is not accurate.

2) I would not put myself in with the crowd who consider themselves "over the top" and I think this mentality is something we should work to eliminate not promote as something "good" from a fan base.

3) Steve Glynn, aside... there is a guy known as "The Hockey Guy" on YouTube he is actually a Canucks and Bruins fan with an affection for Dallas, as he says you have to watch his channel to find out why. This is someone who while I don't like the teams he supports I'd gladly watch any of his videos over attention starved Steve. He is very reasonable and he discusses ALL the teams and NEWS from around the league quite honestly and in a friendly and unbiased way.

I found him like many other Leaf fans during the draft lottery reaction video from him, he went on about the Leafs (in a positive way), more people should be like him and I'd bet it people on here decided to start a video channel like his (even if it only focused on the Leafs) it would be more like THIS and less obnoxious and in your face screaming like Steve.

Here's "The Hockey Guy" from his July 24th upload. Check him out if you're not familiar, he's not trying to be in your face or shocking or gimmicky in presentation, he's just being REAL. I admire that. Give him a Subscribe.

I think you twisted my words a little. I did not say the labels of "over the top" or "over-reaction" were quite fitting (though I'm sure a very large portion of hockey fans would argue they are.) I said his persona is quite fitting to those labels.

He just takes a satirical approach in his portrayal of the perceived typical Leaf fan. I think it is pretty funny sometimes, he kind of acts out my own initial knee-jerk reaction. Of course, that reaction is very short-lived as logic quickly sets in. I find it bang-on, to the initial response you find on these boards.

There is so much dry, serious hockey talk with broadcasts, Sportscenter, Sportsnet, Fan590, TSN1050, etc, etc. Sometimes it's nice to have a little off-the-wall comedy added in. I loved Jay Onrait and Dan O'toole as they were a little more subdued off-the-wall but always added that comic relief. There's O'dog and Noodles but they're still a little more dry.

I was honestly of the same mind as you as I was never really motivated to watch Steve Dangle. But then I watched a few episodes, then a few more and found it pretty funny and entertaining.

Being a Leafs fan, sometimes you just need to laugh at the craziness that is involved. How does one of the most unsuccessful professional sports teams in the last half-century have such a passionate fanbase??
Why do I continually support a team that continually fails? That is the craziest thing out of anything?

I don't see anything wrong with "over-the-top" or "over-emotional" as they are par for the course when you have such a passionate community. There are a lot of fan-bases who would kill for that label because their fanbase is "who-gives-a-****" or "no one cares."

 

[7even]

It must be a generational thing but I can't watch more than 10 seconds of this guy without getting the urge to stick sharp objects into my eyes and ears. Perhaps it's for an audience weened on that condescending 90's children's television and its amped up presenters.

why wont these kids stay off my lawn

 

[Leafsman]

With all due respect... I find this "quite fitting" thing hard to digest.

1) It's quite fitting for all of us to be known as "over the top" and "obnoxious" and be prone to "overreactions"? I would say SOME fit this mold indeed as they do on every Teams board here, but to suggest our fans are all like this is not accurate.

2) I would not put myself in with the crowd who consider themselves "over the top" and I think this mentality is something we should work to eliminate not promote as something "good" from a fan base.

3) Steve Glynn, aside... there is a guy known as "The Hockey Guy" on YouTube he is actually a Canucks and Bruins fan with an affection for Dallas, as he says you have to watch his channel to find out why. This is someone who while I don't like the teams he supports I'd gladly watch any of his videos over attention starved Steve. He is very reasonable and he discusses ALL the teams and NEWS from around the league quite honestly and in a friendly and unbiased way.

I found him like many other Leaf fans during the draft lottery reaction video from him, he went on about the Leafs (in a positive way), more people should be like him and I'd bet it people on here decided to start a video channel like his (even if it only focused on the Leafs) it would be more like THIS and less obnoxious and in your face screaming like Steve.

Here's "The Hockey Guy" from his July 24th upload. Check him out if you're not familiar, he's not trying to be in your face or shocking or gimmicky in presentation, he's just being REAL. I admire that. Give him a Subscribe.

Steve Dangle also has a much tamer podcast which has a little more substance and also some pretty decent guests.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

It must be a generational thing but I can't watch more than 10 seconds of this guy without getting the urge to stick sharp objects into my eyes and ears. Perhaps it's for an audience weened on that condescending 90's children's television and its amped up presenters.

I believe that Steve is around the same age as me and I find him incredibly obnoxious. He managed to get a gig with Rogers though doing videos in his spare time so there's obviously people who like him. The same people who probably like Cox and Simmons.

 

[RoyalGremlin]

He's wrong. Tier 2 is actually tier 1. I believe that Marner is definitely on Matthews level and it would be an insult to Nylander to not be on the same tier based on his own priodigcal scoring rates. So basically I think dangle's pyramid is spot on for level 3 as my level 2 tier. Matthews is amazing but don't count Marner out, I can see him out producing Matthews or actually benefitting from playing together. I think switching Nylander to RW is unnecessary, I'd rather have him as our 2C anchor.

 

[showtime8]

He's wrong. Tier 2 is actually tier 1. I believe that Marner is definitely on Matthews level and it would be an insult to Nylander to not be on the same tier based on his own priodigcal scoring rates. So basically I think dangle's pyramid is spot on for level 3 as my level 2 tier. Matthews is amazing but don't count Marner out, I can see him out producing Matthews or actually benefitting from playing together. I think switching Nylander to RW is unnecessary, I'd rather have him as our 2C anchor.

The reason that Matthews is on a tier all by himself is that he will undoubtedly make the NHL. The consensus among everyone is that he'll be in the line-up day 1.

There's speculation that Marner will be on the team and I would say that the majority has him making the NHL, but there's still at least a 20% chance he doesn't make the team.

And for Nylander, it's more about what position he is. He's most likely to be on the opening day roster, but I wouldn't say he's on the same level as Matthews.

 

[showtime8]

The really interesting and neat thing about this system. (Which also scares me into believing I need to get a life and stop being a hockey nerd.)

Is that the tiers almost define themselves within the prospect pool.

There is very little rational reasoning that any of our other prospects are in the same class as Matthews. Resulting in him being in a tier himself.

There is also quite a bit of rationale reasoning as to why Nylander and Marner are quite similar in potential but very little reasoning as to anybody else being included in similar potential - resulting in the second tier.

The weaker the reasoning to distinguish players, the more they should be included in the same tier.

What happens next year if Matthews, Marner and Nylander all graduate from being prospects?

There may be only 4 tiers instead of 6. There may be more players included in the first tier. This doesn't mean we have a better system, but a weaker first tier of players. Unless of course, the Leafs pull off some sweet moves or players distinguish themselves and prove a higher potential.

As it stands right now, would you consider McDavid to still be a prospect? And in that same breath, would you consider Draisaitl to be a prospect? That answer will lead to the way we think about all 3 of those players graduating.


I don't think we should overthink this tier process. Dangle was pretty close to what is realistic. And the tiered system is pretty fluid throughout the season. If Korostolev suddenly scores 60 goals, then I'm sure you can move him up a tier. Not saying it will happen, but you aren't bound by the off-season prospect list.

 

[Leafsman]

As it stands right now, would you consider McDavid to still be a prospect? And in that same breath, would you consider Draisaitl to be a prospect? That answer will lead to the way we think about all 3 of those players graduating.


I don't think we should overthink this tier process. Dangle was pretty close to what is realistic. And the tiered system is pretty fluid throughout the season. If Korostolev suddenly scores 60 goals, then I'm sure you can move him up a tier. Not saying it will happen, but you aren't bound by the off-season prospect list.

I don't consider either a prospect.

If you can't even be considered a rookie for Calder trophy purposes, I'm not sure how you can be considered a prospect.

If they play the year, they graduate from the prospect classification. Mainly because they graduated from the rookie classification, and would be considered sophomores going forward.

 

[showtime8]

I don't consider either a prospect.

If you can't even be considered a rookie for Calder trophy purposes, I'm not sure how you can be considered a prospect.

If they play the year, they graduate from the prospect classification. Mainly because they graduated from the rookie classification, and would be considered sophomores going forward.

Well then Nylander is no longer in the rookie classification because he played more than 25 games last season.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Well then Nylander is no longer in the rookie classification because he played more than 25 games last season.

Nylander only played 22 games last year. he's still classified as a rookie.