Movies: Star Wars: Episode VIII THE LAST JEDI (NO SPOILERS - Use the other thread for spoilers)

[Jumptheshark]

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[HanSolo]

From Argarbar (I suck at quoting out of dead threads )

The problem is they chose to do a rehash of the Empire instead of doing something different like Kylo Ren and Snoke beginning a resistance underground and a group of the Alliance trying to stop them. Make the scope small to start, then build it up to the final chapter. Perhaps the new evil resistance actually gains significant traction in the second movie to fall in with the "second part of a trilogy is always the darkest." This keeps there from being so many concepts that come off as copies of the OST.

Also these porgs seem kinda lame.

I know what you're saying but technically the First Order IS an evil resistance. The Empire controlled the whole galaxy. The First Order had to topple the Resistance. Granted they had the resources to do it quickly and with great impact. But conceptually speaking, an evil resistance is exactly what they are. They're not the predominant governance in the galaxy. Right now no one is.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

From Argarbar (I suck at quoting out of dead threads )


I know what you're saying but technically the First Order IS an evil resistance. The Empire controlled the whole galaxy. The First Order had to topple the Resistance. Granted they had the resources to do it quickly and with great impact. But conceptually speaking, an evil resistance is exactly what they are. They're not the predominant governance in the galaxy. Right now no one is.

When you show the First Order with such an impressive military (and a gigantic planet killer base), you have to acknowledge they also have the resources and backing of something incredibly substantial to make that happen. They don't have to be the "predominant governing body" for them to slot in as the new "Empire" in just about every other aspect of their description.

And perhaps the biggest problem is the fact there was no lead up to this resistance getting to such a substantial size and becoming (probably) the largest military force in the galaxy.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

I like many just assumed they consolidated the remaining forces of Empire in wake of fall of empire. Enough forces that they were able to prevent Republic victory while being strong enough to deter any potential active conflict

They likely withdrew to safe/defendable area of space and simply went about rebuilding and it seemed Republic was happy enough to have a level of peace/no conflict that they would not actively pursue conflict

Essentially it appeared to be something of 1930's Europe in episode 7

It really isn't that hard to grasp or imagine

 

[HanSolo]

I like many just assumed they consolidated the remaining forces of Empire in wake of fall of empire. Enough forces that they were able to prevent Republic victory while being strong enough to deter any potential active conflict

They likely withdrew to safe/defendable area of space and simply went about rebuilding and it seemed Republic was happy enough to have a level of peace/no conflict that they would not actively pursue conflict

Essentially it appeared to be something of 1930's Europe in episode 7

It really isn't that hard to grasp or imagine

That's what I figured as well. Especially when you consider they use a lot of the same elements as the Empire like stormtroopers and TIE fighters. It's possible they never lost the manufacturing for these tools of war after losing the galactic Civil War.

ArGarBarGar if it makes it easier you can just consider The First Order a retooled and rebranded Empire with little political control attempting to regain said control. I haven't dived into the new EU materials but I'm pretty sure that's actually what they are anyway.

 

[beowulf]

Snoke is one ugly dude.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I like many just assumed they consolidated the remaining forces of Empire in wake of fall of empire. Enough forces that they were able to prevent Republic victory while being strong enough to deter any potential active conflict

They likely withdrew to safe/defendable area of space and simply went about rebuilding and it seemed Republic was happy enough to have a level of peace/no conflict that they would not actively pursue conflict

Essentially it appeared to be something of 1930's Europe in episode 7

It really isn't that hard to grasp or imagine

You guys are taking it a completely different direction. I am aware of where they came from and the overall backstory (as far as what we can know). My issue stems from it being another "Empire" anatagonist group which takes a ton of imagery (not just in tech but in general organization and structure) from the OST, where if the First Order started out as a smaller, more fragmented group that was looking to start gaining ground they may have been able to reduce a lot of those issues.

My concern with the "lead up" is that we start in TFA with the "hey we new Empire now" within the first scene of the movie. I don't think that is a terrible way to go about it, but I don't think it is all that great, either.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

When you show the First Order with such an impressive military (and a gigantic planet killer base), you have to acknowledge they also have the resources and backing of something incredibly substantial to make that happen. They don't have to be the "predominant governing body" for them to slot in as the new "Empire" in just about every other aspect of their description.

Meanwhile the Rebels Resistance has this:

That's the second representation of the good guys we see. It's 100% intentional.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Meanwhile the Rebels Resistance has this:

That's the second representation of the good guys we see. It's 100% intentional.

I never said it wasn't intentional, I am saying why I (and others) may have an issue with the way the good/bad guys were iterated in this, mainly with the many examples which make TFA come across as a rehash of ANH.

Who knows, maybe my criticism stems from the fact the outfits for the Snoke guards are incredibly lame. The Imperial Guard outfits were way better (and it is a travesty they weren't actually used in some form of combat).

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

No, I agree with you, the writers wanted the same dynamic between the two powers from the original trilogy, but didn't want to put in the legwork to explain why the status quo was the same after 30 years, so they just made it happen without explanation.

Which is why the Empire has new hotness while the Rebels get old, busted hotness despite it should ostensibly be the other way around.

And you mention his guards, I can't even remember what they looked like.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

No, I agree with you, the writers wanted the same dynamic between the two powers from the original trilogy, but didn't want to put in the legwork to explain why the status quo was the same after 30 years, so they just made it happen without explanation.

Which is why the Empire has new hotness while the Rebels get old, busted hotness despite it should ostensibly be the other way around.

And you mention his guards, I can't even remember what they looked like.

More of just my nostalgia than anything, probably.

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

those guards were disappointingly easy to beat in Return of the Jedi for Super Nintendo

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

But in a deleted scene they were ready to fight Vader, gotta count for something

 

[johnjm22]

the writers wanted the same dynamic between the two powers from the original trilogy

Definitely.

but didn't want to put in the legwork to explain why the status quo was the same after 30 years, so they just made it happen without explanation.

I don't think it's about not wanting to put in the legwork. I think it's about Disney not wanting to take a risk. They were afraid if the new movie didn't have the same dynamic as the originals people might not like it.

From their perspective it's the safe thing to do. People want to see this big awesome opposing force with TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Storm Trooper and a big mega weapon.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Definitely.



I don't think it's about not wanting to put in the legwork. I think it's about Disney not wanting to take a risk. They were afraid if the new movie didn't have the same dynamic as the originals people might not like it.

From their perspective it's the safe thing to do. People want to see this big awesome opposing force with TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, Storm Trooper and a big mega weapon.

I guess I can't blame them as a business based on the sense they will make a ton of money doing it.

 

[Bjorn Le]

No, I agree with you, the writers wanted the same dynamic between the two powers from the original trilogy, but didn't want to put in the legwork to explain why the status quo was the same after 30 years, so they just made it happen without explanation.

Which is why the Empire has new hotness while the Rebels get old, busted hotness despite it should ostensibly be the other way around.

And you mention his guards, I can't even remember what they looked like.

They might use dynamic as the word but we shouldn't...it doesn't describe the reality of the situation.

I guess I can't blame them as a business based on the sense they will make a ton of money doing it.

For now it does, but they can't keep rehashing the OT and expect to keep pulling in buckets of ducats. This movie is going to make a lot, and certainly the third one will too. But people are going to get sick of it. There was plenty of grumbles from Star Wars fans about TFA, and if TLJ ends up being ESB all over again, they're only going to get louder.

Star Wars has the potential to make more money than Marvel, and right now, Disney is doing a lot better job with Marvel then Star Wars. Marvel Studios more or less operates independently of corporate Disney, and is making some amazing movies based on the comic source material (include new stuff that to be honest, 99% of movie goers have never heard of). On the other hand, Lucasfilm is interchangeable with Disney. I'll say this, Rogue One was great, and the animated shows have been solid. It's not all bad, but the direction is not inspiring. The background they've created for the sequel trilogy just sucks. Their justification for the New Republic, who ostensibly controls most of the old Empire, not helping the Resistance fight genocidal "big bad evil" remnants is so absurd. I'm not sure there's a story archtype I hate more than black and white good versus evil. It's dumb, it's not real, it's overdone. It's why Kylo is by far my favourite character from TFA. He's not good, he's not evil. It helps there was clearly some inspiration from Jacen (one of only truly great characters from the last years of the old EU), but Snoke is a boring villain. A really, really, boring villain.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

They never dared to examine why there was a rebellion. Why is there a rebellion when the Alliance exists and controls the galactic government?

Oh right, it's because they were to focused on rehashing ANH to read over what they wrote.

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

it's almost as if each new Star Wars movie is custom-tailored in a corporate boardroom to make as much money as humanly possible

 

[Bjorn Le]

They never dared to examine why there was a rebellion. Why is there a rebellion when the Alliance exists and controls the galactic government?

Oh right, it's because they were to focused on rehashing ANH to read over what they wrote.

They kind of did, but I actually wish they didn't. They said it's because the Republic/Alliance doesn't want to get involved in a full scale war with the First Order. Which is ridiculous given that the First Order is purported to be a rump state (at the same time as they have limitless resources and manpower...) while the New Republic controls most of the galaxy, and the First Order just massacred billions of people IN the Republic to test their superweapon. You're right on why, but they did "answer" it.

In the original EU, it made sense why the Republic didn't crush the Empire. At first, they couldn't because Thrawn was a tactical genius and had a better fleet. After he was gone, there was no really reason to fight them because the Empire was no longer doing nasty stuff. In the new universe, it's just plain stupid.

it's almost as if each new Star Wars movie is custom-tailored in a corporate boardroom to make as much money as humanly possible

For TFA and what looks like TLJ, almost. But Rogue One was not quite that.

 

[MadDevil]

Snoke is one ugly dude.

That bath robe looks fabulous though.

 

[Hivemind]

If only the writers of Star Wars had some sort of lazy exposition tool they could use without drawing any criticism in order to explain how things moved from Episode VI to Episode VII. Perhaps something text based. Maybe scrolling. And throw it at the beginning of the movie to set the scene. If only they had such a thing at their disposal...

Seriously. If they had made better use of the scroll they could have washed away a lot of these set-up concerns easily

 

[ArGarBarGar]

If only the writers of Star Wars had some sort of lazy exposition tool they could use without drawing any criticism in order to explain how things moved from Episode VI to Episode VII. Perhaps something text based. Maybe scrolling. And throw it at the beginning of the movie to set the scene. If only they had such a thing at their disposal...

Seriously. If they had made better use of the scroll they could have washed away a lot of these set-up concerns easily

You are the second person to apparently miss the point I was making and what my opinion was.

 

[Hivemind]

You are the second person to apparently miss the point I was making and what my opinion was.

My comment wasn't solely in reaction to yours, but the discussion as a whole. I was tempted to quote a couple different posts in this thread (namely those by BHWC and Finlandia), but decided it was more of a general point than one specifically reacting to any one post.

 

[RandV]

If only the writers of Star Wars had some sort of lazy exposition tool they could use without drawing any criticism in order to explain how things moved from Episode VI to Episode VII. Perhaps something text based. Maybe scrolling. And throw it at the beginning of the movie to set the scene. If only they had such a thing at their disposal...

Seriously. If they had made better use of the scroll they could have washed away a lot of these set-up concerns easily

That was my thought as well. The opening scrolls did a good minimalist job of setting the backstory for each Star Wars movies. Rather than filling in the 30(?) year gap TFA just rambles on a bit about finding Luke Skywalker.

 

[Hockeyfrilla]

J.J. Abrams to Write and Direct Star Wars: Episode IX

Just announced:

http://www.starwars.com/news/j-j-abrams-to-write-and-direct-star-wars-episode-ix?cmp=smc|1069686719