Online Series: Star Trek: Discovery - III - Spock's Beard

[Osprey]

My only real motivation for watching this second season is to get to chat about Trek here. If I didn't know about this thread or it didn't exist, I wouldn't bother watching.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

My only real motivation for watching this second season is to get to chat about Trek here. If I didn't know about this thread or it didn't exist, I wouldn't bother watching.

Same here mate

 

[The Nemesis]

My only real motivation for watching this second season is to get to chat about Trek here. If I didn't know about this thread or it didn't exist, I wouldn't bother watching.

I'm kind of in the same boat. The only thing that probably got me through Discovery season one was coming here and snarking about it with the rest of you.

The only thing that's got me even remotely interested in this season is Pike & Number One. I also look forward to some good riffs on scruffy student-activist Spock and his dumb beard too.

 

[Blender]

I'm kind of in the same boat. The only thing that probably got me through Discovery season one was coming here and snarking about it with the rest of you.

The only thing that's got me even remotely interested in this season is Pike & Number One. I also look forward to some good riffs on scruffy student-activist Spock and his dumb beard too.

I like Anson Mount, so hopefully his character is well done. That won't save the season if the rest of the writing is as sloppy as season 1 though.

 

[The Nemesis]

I like Anson Mount, so hopefully his character is well done. That won't save the season if the rest of the writing is as sloppy as season 1 though.

Of course not, but sometimes just having a couple of engaging characters can salvage a show from being a total garbage fire to being watachable in parts. Honestly, I think back to mid/late season Voyager and shudder to think what it would've been like if not for the Doctor and Seven carrying large portions of the show.

 

[Blender]

Of course not, but sometimes just having a couple of engaging characters can salvage a show from being a total garbage fire to being watachable in parts. Honestly, I think back to mid/late season Voyager and shudder to think what it would've been like if not for the Doctor and Seven carrying large portions of the show.

Really I consider seasons 4-7 Voyager a completely different, and superior, show to seasons 1-3. Most of season 1-3 is unwatchable, but there is some really good material in the later seasons.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Her character was horrible and Michelle Yeoh did a terrible job with the acting. Some how these geniuses think she's a good fit for her own series?

This is kind of like giving Dr. Polaski her own spin off after season 2 of TNG

 

[The Nemesis]

Really I consider seasons 4-7 Voyager a completely different, and superior, show to seasons 1-3. Most of season 1-3 is unwatchable, but there is some really good material in the later seasons.

There is. And most of it ends up revolving around or involving the Doctor or Seven (or both) to some significant degree. Tuvok is on the next tier down, but it's a bit of a drop. Then B'Lanna and Tom are below him. But honestly Harry and Chakotay are basically worthless characters and for every good Janeway bit, it's undone by an awful story with her where she behaves like a total asshat or a raving principles zealot. And then at the bottom is Neelix, a character who might've actually been intriguing if they hadn't made him a doofy, kid-appeal moron that you want to strangle at every turn. And Kes was just sort of... there.

Honestly though it's no surprise that Voyager ended up how it did. Its early seasons were marred by tons of executive meddling as they were so desperate to pin the hopes of UPN as a fledgling network on a Star Trek program as their anchor that they shoved all these demands and requirements on the show. Like doing away with the Maquis/Starfleet conflict, making the plot largely a collection of reset-button episodes with no ongoing consequences, focusing on introducing a lot of awful alien races, and outright explicitly stating that the alien characters and officers had to be the more interesting characters for the viewer to focus on. So all the human crew basically had their legs cut out from underneath them right from the beginning.

It makes me question if something similar happened with Discovery. That they were forced to focus everything through the lens of Burnham with smaller concessions to Stammets and Tilly (with the understanding that Lorca was basically a glorified guest star), because when's the last time you've had a Star Trek where you literally can't name over half the bridge crew or multiple other senior officers? (to this day I still can't remember the name of dead doctor guy. He was the chief frigging medical officer but he was also basically the flattest character on the show besides Lt Cmdr Airiam, the sorta-androidy bridge crew member who is clearly the most interesting person on the bridge in spite of the fact that she had zero lines all season and I had to look her up on the Star Trek wiki to even learn she had a name)

 

[Ducks in a row]

 

[NyQuil]

It makes me question if something similar happened with Discovery. That they were forced to focus everything through the lens of Burnham with smaller concessions to Stammets and Tilly (with the understanding that Lorca was basically a glorified guest star), because when's the last time you've had a Star Trek where you literally can't name over half the bridge crew or multiple other senior officers? (to this day I still can't remember the name of dead doctor guy. He was the chief frigging medical officer but he was also basically the flattest character on the show besides Lt Cmdr Airiam, the sorta-androidy bridge crew member who is clearly the most interesting person on the bridge in spite of the fact that she had zero lines all season and I had to look her up on the Star Trek wiki to even learn she had a name)

To be fair, it's easy to look back in retrospect for the other shows when they have many seasons under their belts and sufficient episodes focused on each character to be memorable.

If you'd asked me who everyone was months after the end of TNG or DS9 or Voyageur or Enterprise Season 1, I wonder how well I'd do.

Still, I'd agree that they focused on the dramatic tension of a few characters (e.g. Burnham) to the exclusion of everything else.

The fact that they basically had a pilot that was divorced from the actual series complicated things a bit.

Overall, it just didn't feel like Trek.

I had the privilege of watching Best of Both Worlds I and II again back to back a few days ago (it's been a few years) and they spend so much time talking about how to actually defeat the Borg (and failing numerous times) as opposed to running around and shooting stuff. What a great performance by bearded Jonathan Frakes.

The new show misses that kind of reasoned gravitas.

I think it's trying too hard to be exciting when Star Trek nerds really just want to feel immersed.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Trying to make Star Trek cool is never going to work.

Like that scene in Nemesis where Picard wants to drive a car really fast. So f***ing dumb.

 

[johnjm22]

I just got around to watching Short Trek Calypso today.

I've made feelings on Discovery known previously (I think it's mostly trash and hated season 1).

With that being said I liked Calypso. Thought it was solid. It left me wanting answers, but the fact that it leaves me wanting is a good thing. That means it was engaging.

I liked the main character. In 15 minutes of screen time he was better and more interesting than nearly every character on STD.

This is what you get when you keep things focused and simple instead of an action schlock fest like STD season one.

 

[The Nemesis]

Trying to make Star Trek cool is never going to work.

Like that scene in Nemesis where Picard wants to drive a car really fast. So ****ing dumb.

I think I read somewhere that scene happened purely because Patrick Stewart wanted to go out and drive a dune buggy.

 

[johnjm22]

I think I read somewhere that scene happened purely because Patrick Stewart wanted to go out and drive a dune buggy.

Stewart was always pushing for Picard to be an action hero.

I love Patrick, but he doesn't understand the Picard character. As his career with Star Trek went on he gained more and more power involving creative decisions. That's what worries me about the upcoming show. Does he still think Picard should be an action hero?

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

The Picard in the movies was different from the Picard in the TV series, and just wasn't as good of a character. His biceps bulging escape from the gas in first contact was almost as cringe worthy as the Dune Buggy scene.

 

[The Nemesis]

Stewart was always pushing for Picard to be an action hero.

I love Patrick, but he doesn't understand the Picard character. As his career with Star Trek went on he gained more and more power involving creative decisions. That's what worries me about the upcoming show. Does he still think Picard should be an action hero?

Star Trek XIII: The one where Picard goes back in time, ends World War II by going on a literal Terminator rampage through Nazi headquarters, spouts cheesy James Bond one-liners, and then ends the film by having a threesome with Marilyn Monroe, Joan of Arc, and Cleopatra.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

You forgot that there has to be a musical number where Data and Picard sing a duet together (Yeesh)

 

[LeafalCrusader]

You forgot that there has to be a musical number where Data and Picard sing a duet together (Yeesh)

And Worf

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

I know its not the place, but when you look back on the TNG movies its hard to believe how entirely bad they got compared to the other movies. I mean you could literally hear the sounds of brakes squealing followed by the crunch of the franchise hitting a light pole.

Star Trek 1 - I like it, but I get why other people didn't. It strove to be too much of a high ended science fiction drama with very little in the way of action. It was ahead of its time with its effects, but the uniform and bridge design was blinding. this movie showed why Gene Roddenberry was pushed off to the side. The highlight was the re-introduction of the Enterprise, the low point was really that the original actors didn't seem to have that much chemistry

Star Trek 2 TWOK - Bar none without question the best of all the movies. The crew chemistry was on full display and Kirstie Alley was great in her role. RM really made this movie and you didn't care that he and Kirk never got face to face. The death of Spock was emotional, the Ship battle in the Nebula was amazingly well done.

Star Trek 3 TSFS - I loved this movie, but Robin Curtis (SP?) wasn't as strong as Alley. Great plot line, but what really made the movie was the scene stealing villain. Best scene in any of the movies was the death of Kirk's son and his reaction.

Star Trek IV TVH - I'd put this in second place. But I loved the premise of the probe returning to look for whales and not understanding the harm it was doing. The crew worked together flawlessly and there was some great humor in their struggles.

Star Trek V - Just awful, Shatner directed this and his ego got the best of him. All of the characters were out of character and I almost left when Scotty knocked himself out. Great line though "Excuse me, what does God need with a Star Ship". The Klingon villain was boring and the concept of Spocks brother was lame.

Star Trek VI - I really loved this movie as well because they let the crew age and it was the primary theme throughout a movie that mirrored the fall of the Soviet Union. Christopher Plummer as the Shakespear quoting villain was just as good as Lloyd's. Klingon Captain. The end scene was almost tear enducing as it summed up and ended the series so well

Star Trek Generation - Not bad, but not great. It just felt like wasted opportunity, especially with Malcolm McDowell who's such a brilliant villain actor. This felt like a 2 hour TV episode more then a franchise movie. William Shatner almost felt wasted in this movie, but I liked his "Oh my" last line.

Star Trek First Contact - Probably the best of the next generations movies. But behind 2,3,4 and 6 in quality. It introduced the Data Picard show where everyone else was a background character or there for reference only. Alice Kriege was great as the queen, but I always thought that this was the movie that made the Borg a less unique and frightening villain species. Oh and the Troi drunk scene was the worst acted scene in all of the movies.

Star Trek Insurrection - Just a really bad movie with bad villains, a stupid plot with a worse solution, the Emergency combat joystick made me throw my popcorn at the screen. This was the movie that really pushed most of the characters into the background and the Data, Worf, Picard singing scene showed how this movie had become about 2 main characters. At the time I thought it was the worst Trek movie ever and couldn't be surpassed

Star Trek Nem - Man was I wrong. This movie was in the politest term $$$$. From the stupidity of the B4 to make Data's sacrifice into a big FU at the fans, to the stupid dune buggy and Picard action man scenes. To Tom Hardy ripping off the Lord of the Rings death scene. You could literally see most of the cast not giving a crap anymore.

Star Trek - The reboot of Star Trek 90210 with its young cast was surprisingly well done with Pine and Quinto doing great jobs. But the real applause goes to Keith Urban who sounded and acted like McCoy. A pretty cardboard villain with a stupid revenge plot, but it didn't matter because this movie was just a lot of fun to watch. It was upwards for Trek again

Star Trek ID - Or not. This was just a monumental mistake of a movie mainly because they recast Khan and while Cumberbatch is a excellent actor, he was miscast as Kahn becoming a cold blooded reptile like killer instead of the hot blooded emotional Ahab that was RM in space Seed and TWOK. It just didn't work on a lot of levels, but mainly because the whole thing felt out of place.

Star Trek Beyond - I liked it, they made it more actiony and the music stuff with the cast bopping to the Beastie Boys was just awkwardly silly, and the villain wasn't that great or menacing, the tone and energy of the movie carried it.

So there you have it, in my mind the Original movies are still just plain better then what comes next with the exception of 5. Generations had an ok movie and good movie and then slid into the sewers, and the reboot was just un even but still decent.

I guess the main reason why I don't want a Picard show is first of all, what's left to tell, and second of all, when Star Trek became strictly about Picard instead of the entire ensemble cast it lead to some bad shows and worse movies.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

When I heard that Nicholas Meyer was involved I had high hopes for Discovery. Guy really saved Star Trek in the 80's/early 90's with Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country after The Motion Picture and Final Frontier almost killed the whole thing (co-wrote Voyage Home as well I believe). He's either lost his touch or has little to no influence on this show because this show has just had idiotic writing from day one.

 

[peate]

I know its not the place, but when you look back on the TNG movies its hard to believe how entirely bad they got compared to the other movies. I mean you could literally hear the sounds of brakes squealing followed by the crunch of the franchise hitting a light pole.

Star Trek 1 - I like it, but I get why other people didn't. It strove to be too much of a high ended science fiction drama with very little in the way of action. It was ahead of its time with its effects, but the uniform and bridge design was blinding. this movie showed why Gene Roddenberry was pushed off to the side. The highlight was the re-introduction of the Enterprise, the low point was really that the original actors didn't seem to have that much chemistry

Star Trek 2 TWOK - Bar none without question the best of all the movies. The crew chemistry was on full display and Kirstie Alley was great in her role. RM really made this movie and you didn't care that he and Kirk never got face to face. The death of Spock was emotional, the Ship battle in the Nebula was amazingly well done.

Star Trek 3 TSFS - I loved this movie, but Robin Curtis (SP?) wasn't as strong as Alley. Great plot line, but what really made the movie was the scene stealing villain. Best scene in any of the movies was the death of Kirk's son and his reaction.

Star Trek IV TVH - I'd put this in second place. But I loved the premise of the probe returning to look for whales and not understanding the harm it was doing. The crew worked together flawlessly and there was some great humor in their struggles.

Star Trek V - Just awful, Shatner directed this and his ego got the best of him. All of the characters were out of character and I almost left when Scotty knocked himself out. Great line though "Excuse me, what does God need with a Star Ship". The Klingon villain was boring and the concept of Spocks brother was lame.

Star Trek VI - I really loved this movie as well because they let the crew age and it was the primary theme throughout a movie that mirrored the fall of the Soviet Union. Christopher Plummer as the Shakespear quoting villain was just as good as Lloyd's. Klingon Captain. The end scene was almost tear enducing as it summed up and ended the series so well

Star Trek Generation - Not bad, but not great. It just felt like wasted opportunity, especially with Malcolm McDowell who's such a brilliant villain actor. This felt like a 2 hour TV episode more then a franchise movie. William Shatner almost felt wasted in this movie, but I liked his "Oh my" last line.

Star Trek First Contact - Probably the best of the next generations movies. But behind 2,3,4 and 6 in quality. It introduced the Data Picard show where everyone else was a background character or there for reference only. Alice Kriege was great as the queen, but I always thought that this was the movie that made the Borg a less unique and frightening villain species. Oh and the Troi drunk scene was the worst acted scene in all of the movies.

Star Trek Insurrection - Just a really bad movie with bad villains, a stupid plot with a worse solution, the Emergency combat joystick made me throw my popcorn at the screen. This was the movie that really pushed most of the characters into the background and the Data, Worf, Picard singing scene showed how this movie had become about 2 main characters. At the time I thought it was the worst Trek movie ever and couldn't be surpassed

Star Trek Nem - Man was I wrong. This movie was in the politest term $$$$. From the stupidity of the B4 to make Data's sacrifice into a big FU at the fans, to the stupid dune buggy and Picard action man scenes. To Tom Hardy ripping off the Lord of the Rings death scene. You could literally see most of the cast not giving a crap anymore.

Star Trek - The reboot of Star Trek 90210 with its young cast was surprisingly well done with Pine and Quinto doing great jobs. But the real applause goes to Keith Urban who sounded and acted like McCoy. A pretty cardboard villain with a stupid revenge plot, but it didn't matter because this movie was just a lot of fun to watch. It was upwards for Trek again

Star Trek ID - Or not. This was just a monumental mistake of a movie mainly because they recast Khan and while Cumberbatch is a excellent actor, he was miscast as Kahn becoming a cold blooded reptile like killer instead of the hot blooded emotional Ahab that was RM in space Seed and TWOK. It just didn't work on a lot of levels, but mainly because the whole thing felt out of place.

Star Trek Beyond - I liked it, they made it more actiony and the music stuff with the cast bopping to the Beastie Boys was just awkwardly silly, and the villain wasn't that great or menacing, the tone and energy of the movie carried it.

So there you have it, in my mind the Original movies are still just plain better then what comes next with the exception of 5. Generations had an ok movie and good movie and then slid into the sewers, and the reboot was just un even but still decent.

I guess the main reason why I don't want a Picard show is first of all, what's left to tell, and second of all, when Star Trek became strictly about Picard instead of the entire ensemble cast it lead to some bad shows and worse movies.

Pretty good summary, I agree with almost everything.

I rank them as follows. My top 5.

1. Wrath and Search are to me one movie. Can't have one without the other.
2. Voyage home. For the humour and jokes, not to be taken seriously.
3. First contact. Best TNG movie by far and I enjoyed the tongue-in-cheekiness of it.
4. ST 2009. Loved the re-creation and the cast was perfect, a bit overdone.
5. Generations. To see the cast reunited was fun and the story wasn't half-bad.

Pick and chose among the rest, they're all average, with the Original movie getting bonus points. The last two re-boots, couldn't stand them, completely missed the point of Star Trek. And WTF was all that blue?

 

[johnjm22]

When I heard that Nicholas Meyer was involved I had high hopes for Discovery. Guy really saved Star Trek in the 80's/early 90's with Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country after The Motion Picture and Final Frontier almost killed the whole thing (co-wrote Voyage Home as well I believe). He's either lost his touch or has little to no influence on this show because this show has just had idiotic writing from day one.

He pretty much implied that he was nothing to do with STD. The little he did ended up being changed or unrecognizable in the final product when he watched it.

He did an interview on this recently.

Also said he wrote a Khan mini-series that he thinks is great, but CBS doesn't know what to do with it.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

Pretty good summary, I agree with almost everything.

I rank them as follows. My top 5.

1. Wrath and Search are to me one movie. Can't have one without the other.
2. Voyage home. For the humour and jokes, not to be taken seriously.
3. First contact. Best TNG movie by far and I enjoyed the tongue-in-cheekiness of it.
4. ST 2009. Loved the re-creation and the cast was perfect, a bit overdone.
5. Generations. To see the cast reunited was fun and the story wasn't half-bad.

Pick and chose among the rest, they're all average, with the Original movie getting bonus points. The last two re-boots, couldn't stand them, completely missed the point of Star Trek. And WTF was all that blue?

I would agree for the most part, but I still have undiscovered country over any of the TNG or NuTrek movies. The writing and dialogue was so strong in VI that it carried it, and the first movie that had two really strong underlying themes. The first the invevitable aging of the crew a theme that was really clumsily expolored in Generations, and the second was man's ability to easily fall into his preconcieved notions. Kirk/Klingon's/ Federation and Kligon leaders/War.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

He pretty much implied that he was nothing to do with STD. The little he did ended up being changed or unrecognizable in the final product when he watched it.

He did an interview on this recently.

Also said he wrote a Khan mini-series that he thinks is great, but CBS doesn't know what to do with it.

I would hope that any Khan series would be his rise to power over a shattered Earth. I always though that would be an amazing series where Man tried to save themselves by building their new leaders in a test tube and how it backfired.

Oh and keep Data's creator out of it.

 

[CaptainCrunch67]

When I heard that Nicholas Meyer was involved I had high hopes for Discovery. Guy really saved Star Trek in the 80's/early 90's with Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country after The Motion Picture and Final Frontier almost killed the whole thing (co-wrote Voyage Home as well I believe). He's either lost his touch or has little to no influence on this show because this show has just had idiotic writing from day one.

He was involved when Fuller was still in charge, given credit as a consultant and not invited back for the second season and nobody told him why. On top of that he basically said he had nothing to do with what we saw on screen, and by the tone of the interview wasn't impressed with much about the series.