Value of: Spurgeon or Dumba to NYR

[WesMcCauley]

Minnesota will have a problem because they will most likely lose a very good defensemen in the expansion draft, atleast the way i see it? NYR need a RH defensemen. I dont watch Wild enough to really know the value of Spurgeon and Dumba, any Wild fans wanna comment on that? What are your needs and what would you want in return for Dumba/Spurgeon?

Click to read more...

 

[Halla]

spurgeon + bergeron = spurgeron?

wild probably dont deal either away. they are still gonna lose a dman even if they move a guy like spurgeon/scandella.
the rangers would have to move graves and a 1st to get their interest if spurgeon/dumba were available

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

I think there might be a trade to make here but it's really hard to make mid season, maybe between the seasons end and the expansion draft.

 

[57special]

Graves?

Spurgeon has more value than Dumba. He is, arguably, the Wild's second best Dman. Dumba is our fifth best, again arguably, but is the youngest and has the most potential. Both are good offensively and can/ should be on the #1 PP...Dumba more as a shooter, Spurgeon as a PPQB. Both are excellent skaters, and have good to very good puck skills. Dumba is more physical. Spurgeon is better defensively.

A first from the Rangers is likely to be a late first, especially if they acquire another Dman without giving up a roster player. No way that GM Fletcher gives up one of those Dmen for something like a 27oa unless there is a significant add.

Bottom line is that the Wild are looking to compete this year, have excess defence, and could use some young scoring talent up front that can play right away. Failing that, they would want a high #1 draft pick, an "A" forward prospect who has first line potential( I.e. Nylander from Buff, Puljujarvi)

Spurgeon would be more expensive than Dumba. Wild management loves him. Suter loves him. He is our tiny, perfect Defenseman.

Not sure that NYR has the talent in their system to acquire them w/o giving up the talent needed for THEIR Cup run. A better trade partner is probably someone who is not in a hurry to compete like ARI, BUFF, VAN, TOR....maybe even NJ.

 

[FifthLine]

I use to think the wild were defintely going to be one of the teams that would move a dman prior to the expansion draft but now, I don't see why they would move one without a massive overpayment. Logically it breaks down like this:

Trade 1, get value back, and likely lose the other one through expansion forsure. Lose both dman.

Or, trade none, lose one to expansion. Lose one dman.

If they had 4 dmen and not 5 to protect it would make sense to trade one, but in this case with 5, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Graves?

Spurgeon has more value than Dumba. He is, arguably, the Wild's second best Dman. Dumba is our fifth best, again arguably, but is the youngest and has the most potential. Both are good offensively and can/ should be on the #1 PP...Dumba more as a shooter, Spurgeon as a PPQB. Both are excellent skaters, and have good to very good puck skills. Dumba is more physical. Spurgeon is better defensively.

A first from the Rangers is likely to be a late first, especially if they acquire another Dman without giving up a roster player. No way that GM Fletcher gives up one of those Dmen for a 27oa unless there is a significant add.

Bottom line is that the Wild are looking to compete this year, have excess defence, and could use some young scoring talent up front that can play right away. Failing that, they would want a high #1 draft pick, an "A" forward prospect who has first line potential.

Spurgeon would be more expensive than Dumba. Wild management loves him. Suter loves him. He is our tiny, perfect Defenseman.

Thanks for the insight. So Dumba would be more available than Spurgeon. You Are interested in a deal that involves Graves and Dumba? Dumba is also easier to trade for in terms of cap hit since he is on a bridgecontract

 

[Mikos87]

Graves?

Spurgeon has more value than Dumba. He is, arguably, the Wild's second best Dman. Dumba is our fifth best, again arguably, but is the youngest and has the most potential. Both are good offensively and can/ should be on the #1 PP...Dumba more as a shooter, Spurgeon as a PPQB. Both are excellent skaters, and have good to very good puck skills. Dumba is more physical. Spurgeon is better defensively.

A first from the Rangers is likely to be a late first, especially if they acquire another Dman without giving up a roster player. No way that GM Fletcher gives up one of those Dmen for a 27oa unless there is a significant add.

Bottom line is that the Wild are looking to compete this year, have excess defence, and could use some young scoring talent up front that can play right away. Failing that, they would want a high #1 draft pick, an "A" forward prospect who has first line potential( I.e. Nylander from Buff, Puljujarvi)

Spurgeon would be more expensive than Dumba. Wild management loves him. Suter loves him. He is our tiny, perfect Defenseman.

Not sure that NYR has the talent in their system to acquire them w/o giving up the talent needed for THEIR Cup run. A better trade partner is probably someone who is not in a hurry to compete like ARI, BUFF, VAN, TOR....maybe even NJ.

Gotta say that you know your hockey. I think both teams can make a trade by it would be robbing Peter to pay Paul if Manor NHL pieces are moved this year.

How's Folin as an option?

 

[57special]

Or the third option, trade two, allowing them to protect 7 forwards. They have Folin, Reilly, Olofsson, and Prosser( ugh), who can all play NHL minutes. Having Suter, Brodin, and Spurgeon, say, isn't a bad core for a defense.

 

[57special]

Gotta say that you know your hockey. I think both teams can make a trade by it would be robbing Peter to pay Paul if Manor NHL pieces are moved this year.

How's Folin as an option?

Well, he just sprained a knee last night, and is out for a couple three weeks. He's a bottom pairing guy who has gotten more solid this year, but has limited upside. Reilly and Olofsson have more potential to be top 4 players. Don't see that Folin would move the needle much for NYR . Part of his value is that he has a cheap contract. The Wild, and NYR, I'm guessing, can always use a bargain player who can fill a position reasonably well.

What am I missing with this Graves guy? I don't see that he has much, if any value, and don't understand why his name is being brought up in trade talks for in their prime or about to be in their prime top 4 Dmen. An offer of a very late first and Graves is not going to get anything done. Dumba is a #8oa guy who is progressing nicely and Spurgeon is worth more than him...getting a draft pick who might be A player 4 or 5 years from now is not much of an offer.

 

[bernmeister]

Graves?

Spurgeon has more value than Dumba. He is, arguably, the Wild's second best Dman. Dumba is our fifth best, again arguably, but is the youngest and has the most potential. Both are good offensively and can/ should be on the #1 PP...Dumba more as a shooter, Spurgeon as a PPQB. Both are excellent skaters, and have good to very good puck skills. Dumba is more physical. Spurgeon is better defensively.

A first from the Rangers is likely to be a late first, especially if they acquire another Dman without giving up a roster player. No way that GM Fletcher gives up one of those Dmen for a 27oa unless there is a significant add.

Bottom line is that the Wild are looking to compete this year, have excess defence, and could use some young scoring talent up front that can play right away. Failing that, they would want a high #1 draft pick, an "A" forward prospect who has first line potential( I.e. Nylander from Buff, Puljujarvi)

Spurgeon would be more expensive than Dumba. Wild management loves him. Suter loves him. He is our tiny, perfect Defenseman.

Not sure that NYR has the talent in their system to acquire them w/o giving up the talent needed for THEIR Cup run. A better trade partner is probably someone who is not in a hurry to compete like ARI, BUFF, VAN, TOR....maybe even NJ.

Graves (more of a power guy, hard shot, etc)- is a different style from Skjei (who is renown for his skating), but no less valuable. Graves already dominating in the A. He is unavailable.

Don't want Spurgeon, will take Dumba please

So, you don't want to do
Stepan + small F (Lindberg?) add
for
Dumba + a guy like Tuch + maybe small cap dump

is that right?

" As to Bottom line is that
the Wild are looking to compete this year, have excess defence, and could use some young scoring talent up front that can play right away. Failing that, they would want a high #1 draft pick, an "A" forward prospect who has first line potential( I.e. Nylander from Buff, Puljujarvi)"

let's see if we can't arrive at something that works both ways.

Rangers have 3 ELC F prospects: Tambellini (ready for cup of coffee now, competes next year), Kovacs 1-2 yrs away, and Stromwall, a total crapshoot. They are 2.4ishm vs Dumba's 2.5.
I'll add Pirri's 1.6 and take back RW Zack Mitchell, 615k, expiring w/RFA rights.

you get Pirri who is young scoring talent who can play immediately, and he is expiring so you have options to juggle going forward. You also have 3 guys, each like 3rd round value who are somewhat to largely developed, adding F depth soon.

Rangers get skating RD who can shoot and pick up 1mil in cap

You remain stacked on D
Rangers have added a D when they already have too many to protect

However, Rome wasn't built in a day, and no one or two deals will do all the things most teams need, incl Rangers.

Deal?

 

[57special]

Graves (more of a power guy, hard shot, etc)- is a different style from Skjei (who is renown for his skating), but no less valuable. Graves already dominating in the A. He is unavailable.

Don't want Spurgeon, will take Dumba please

So, you don't want to do
Stepan + small F (Lindberg?) add
for
Dumba + a guy like Tuch + maybe small cap dump

is that right?

" As to Bottom line is that
the Wild are looking to compete this year, have excess defence, and could use some young scoring talent up front that can play right away. Failing that, they would want a high #1 draft pick, an "A" forward prospect who has first line potential( I.e. Nylander from Buff, Puljujarvi)"

let's see if we can't arrive at something that works both ways.

Rangers have 3 ELC F prospects: Tambellini (ready for cup of coffee now, competes next year), Kovacs 1-2 yrs away, and Stromwall, a total crapshoot. They are 2.4ishm vs Dumba's 2.5.
I'll add Pirri's 1.6 and take back RW Zack Mitchell, 615k, expiring w/RFA rights.

you get Pirri who is young scoring talent who can play immediately, and he is expiring so you have options to juggle going forward. You also have 3 guys, each like 3rd round value who are somewhat to largely developed, adding F depth soon.

Rangers get skating RD who can shoot and pick up 1mil in cap

You remain stacked on D
Rangers have added a D when they already have too many to protect

However, Rome wasn't built in a day, and no one or two deals will do all the things most teams need, incl Rangers.

Deal?

Tuch not being traded. Stepan is a good player, but makes too much for us to fit him in. Staal's unexpected great play, and at 3M per year, no less, has made getting a C less of a priority.
Unless you are prepared to take Pominville back, no deal. We have no other "cap dumps". A guy like Haula is paid 1M, and is far from a dump. I can't think of another player that is underperforming his contract that is available.

The Tambellini's etc. are not of any interest. Just a bunch of minor league names with limited value. Offering them for a player like Dumba is borderline insulting, but that's the way you roll, isn't it? What would you think if I offered Pulkkinen for Skjei?

Pirri? Meh. Don't think he'd fit on the Wild.

 

[rynryn]

i'd want Dumba over Spurgeon if i were a fan from another team too.
Dumba has got youth, untapped potential, and physicality going for him.

How did Burns look at this (Dumba's) age? There'd be a lot of people who would be willing to say that potential or even a lesser version of it is worth more than Spurgeon, who is without a doubt better at everything but hitting than Dumba right now.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Graves (more of a power guy, hard shot, etc)- is a different style from Skjei (who is renown for his skating), but no less valuable. Graves already dominating in the A. He is unavailable.

Don't want Spurgeon, will take Dumba please

So, you don't want to do
Stepan + small F (Lindberg?) add
for
Dumba + a guy like Tuch + maybe small cap dump

is that right?

" As to Bottom line is that
the Wild are looking to compete this year, have excess defence, and could use some young scoring talent up front that can play right away. Failing that, they would want a high #1 draft pick, an "A" forward prospect who has first line potential( I.e. Nylander from Buff, Puljujarvi)"

let's see if we can't arrive at something that works both ways.

Rangers have 3 ELC F prospects: Tambellini (ready for cup of coffee now, competes next year), Kovacs 1-2 yrs away, and Stromwall, a total crapshoot. They are 2.4ishm vs Dumba's 2.5.
I'll add Pirri's 1.6 and take back RW Zack Mitchell, 615k, expiring w/RFA rights.

you get Pirri who is young scoring talent who can play immediately, and he is expiring so you have options to juggle going forward. You also have 3 guys, each like 3rd round value who are somewhat to largely developed, adding F depth soon.

Rangers get skating RD who can shoot and pick up 1mil in cap

You remain stacked on D
Rangers have added a D when they already have too many to protect

However, Rome wasn't built in a day, and no one or two deals will do all the things most teams need, incl Rangers.

Deal?

In what world is Graves unavailable? He is lefthanded, we dont need him. Not trading Stepan for Dumba. Huge overpayment

 

[bernmeister]

In what world is Graves unavailable? He is lefthanded, we dont need him. Not trading Stepan for Dumba. Huge overpayment

In this one, where he is an ELC lefty who can play either side.
This is Gorton, not Slats.
we don't give those guys away any more.

Stepan for Dumba is overpayment, huge if 1 for 1 although that is nearly 4m cap relief.

the ? is what would be the add.

Like 57special said, emergence of EStaal has reduced urgency to tighten up pivot.

but something could work

 

[WesMcCauley]

In this one, where he is an ELC lefty who can play either side.
This is Gorton, not Slats.
we don't give those guys away any more.

Stepan for Dumba is overpayment, huge if 1 for 1 although that is nearly 4m cap relief.

the ? is what would be the add.

Like 57special said, emergence of EStaal has reduced urgency to tighten up pivot.

but something could work

Its not giving him away if we get a similiar RH shot defensemen back which we need alot more

 

[bernmeister]

Tuch not being traded. Stepan is a good player, but makes too much for us to fit him in. Staal's unexpected great play, and at 3M per year, no less, has made getting a C less of a priority.
Unless you are prepared to take Pominville back, no deal. We have no other "cap dumps". A guy like Haula is paid 1M, and is far from a dump. I can't think of another player that is underperforming his contract that is available.

The Tambellini's etc. are not of any interest. Just a bunch of minor league names with limited value. Offering them for a player like Dumba is borderline insulting, but that's the way you roll, isn't it? What would you think if I offered Pulkkinen for Skjei?

Pirri? Meh. Don't think he'd fit on the Wild.

the bold is unnecessarily snarky.
Yesterday's Skjei is unavailable today.

Tambo alone will eventually make middle 6 F, book it.
That alone is a down payment vs Dumba who is a second pair right now w/first pair potential.

You don't share my assessment about who succeeds, fine, but my detractors aside I have been correct on record as to guys making the club in recent years, including such as kreider, Miller, Skjei, Hayes and others many of our board foolishly considered moving.

Let's see in 2-3 years where Tambo and Kovacs are. Dumba will remain the best piece, of course, but my assessment they are reasonable downpayment will be proven.

As to Pomminville, I won't go there.
But I would entertain taking him on for something around Marc Staal, who has returned to better health, and has improved.

It would have to be promptly, not later, 'cause only reason NY does it is to move Staal's NMC, assuming he considers it to hang w/his bro and get closer to home, which may not be enough.

The other deal breaker is -- pls check - that despite his NMC since he is also NTC he can be moved to a cap dweller prior to draft


what do you suggest, something around
Pomminville
and
Marc Staal

??????????

 

[bernmeister]

Its not giving him away if we get a similiar RH shot defensemen back which we need alot more

currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency currency

keep Graves who will be needed later and use other currency to get a Dumba or other RHD

 

[jw2]

Minnesota will have a problem because they will most likely lose a very good defensemen in the expansion draft, atleast the way i see it? NYR need a RH defensemen. I dont watch Wild enough to really know the value of Spurgeon and Dumba, any Wild fans wanna comment on that? What are your needs and what would you want in return for Dumba/Spurgeon?

Worry about what the Rangers will lose in the expansion draft after that move.

 

[TwiztedHeat]

the bold is unnecessarily snarky.
Yesterday's Skjei is unavailable today.

Tambo alone will eventually make middle 6 F, book it.
That alone is a down payment vs Dumba who is a second pair right now w/first pair potential.

You don't share my assessment about who succeeds, fine, but my detractors aside I have been correct on record as to guys making the club in recent years, including such as kreider, Miller, Skjei, Hayes and others many of our board foolishly considered moving.

Let's see in 2-3 years where Tambo and Kovacs are. Dumba will remain the best piece, of course, but my assessment they are reasonable downpayment will be proven.

As to Pomminville, I won't go there.
But I would entertain taking him on for something around Marc Staal, who has returned to better health, and has improved.

It would have to be promptly, not later, 'cause only reason NY does it is to move Staal's NMC, assuming he considers it to hang w/his bro and get closer to home, which may not be enough.

The other deal breaker is -- pls check - that despite his NMC since he is also NTC he can be moved to a cap dweller prior to draft


what do you suggest, something around
Pomminville
and
Marc Staal

??????????

How does this even make sense from what 57special suggested?

 

[Mikos87]

Well, he just sprained a knee last night, and is out for a couple three weeks. He's a bottom pairing guy who has gotten more solid this year, but has limited upside. Reilly and Olofsson have more potential to be top 4 players. Don't see that Folin would move the needle much for NYR . Part of his value is that he has a cheap contract. The Wild, and NYR, I'm guessing, can always use a bargain player who can fill a position reasonably well.

What am I missing with this Graves guy? I don't see that he has much, if any value, and don't understand why his name is being brought up in trade talks for in their prime or about to be in their prime top 4 Dmen. An offer of a very late first and Graves is not going to get anything done. Dumba is a #8oa guy who is progressing nicely and Spurgeon is worth more than him...getting a draft pick who might be A player 4 or 5 years from now is not much of an offer.

Graves is a few years away from making the Rangers, but he's going to be an NHLer. The Rangers have a very good scouting staff, and all indications are that there is a general consensus on this kid.

His upside is similar to that your very own Scandella. Solid but perhaps not an impact player.

The thing with Folin is that the Rangers really need another reliable NHL option on defense, someone that can step in right away and eat some solid 5v5 minutes. I'd give up Lindberg and a pick for Folin and a pick if Reilly or Olaf are ready to make the jump.

I hear you about Dumba. Graves holds no where near the value. You're really looking at a younger forward on the Rangers. It's hard to say who'd offer the fairest value but I think under 26 and one of the top 9 options would have to be the starting point.

Dumba might be the closest thing to Ed Jovonovski imo, a tremendous physical talent with the potential to dominate the game, but doesn't think it well enough to be elite. I think he'd be tremendous on the Rangers, but unless Reilly pushes him out of the top 4, would Minnesota even consider trading him?

 

[WesMcCauley]

Worry about what the Rangers will lose in the expansion draft after that move.

If NYR makes a move for a defensemen that isnt an UFA after the season so we dont have to protect him(shatty for example), Girardi will be bought out.

 

[bernmeister]

How does this even make sense from what 57special suggested?

He specified an interest in moving Pomminville, yes?
If he does not have to be NMC protected, I would listen to a deal for Staal, who is more productive, but has NMC and must be protected for exp draft.

I didn't even insist on anyone in particular other than Staal for starters...

If NYR makes a move for a defensemen that isnt an UFA after the season so we dont have to protect him(shatty for example), Girardi will be bought out.

That is possible, but costly; otherwise, we prob would have done that earlier.
Cost reduces going forward, so getting through this year is significant, and into next year even better. But that is still after this year's exp draft reality

We will not do a signed Shatty for that reason