Speculation: Spitballing destinations/returns for Niskanen

[Pens1566]

What that balls? This post is all over the place, lol.

And yes Nisky is our 7th Dman:
Scuds-Tang
Martin-Orpik
Olli-Bort
Nisky

Disagree. If the playoffs started tomorrow, he'd be at worst our 5th.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Disagree. If the playoffs started tomorrow, he'd be at worst our 5th.

Who do you sit? Olli-Bort has been arguably our best pairing and Nisky didn't look good paired with Olli.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Disagree. If the playoffs started tomorrow, he'd be at worst our 5th.

Who do you sit? It should be a question of Maatta or Niskanen. They fill the same sort of role. Bortuzzo is the most unique of the three and we need what he brings. He should be 100% safe for the rest of the season barring some sort of collapse. A Maatta - Niskanen pairing just isn't a good pairing. But if we plan on sitting Maatta when we are healthy, he wouldn't have been kept up after 9 games. Plus, he's been straight up outplaying Niskanen.

Maatta Bortuzzo pairing > Niskanen Bortuzzo pairing > Maatta Niskanen pairing. Even if the first two are swapped, sitting Maatta is just awful asset management and player development.

If we are healthy, Niskanen should be sitting. And Niskanen is worth too much in a trade to be sitting. Trade him for a forward who won't be sitting when we are healthy if at all possible. Its not like we don't need forward depth too. We need it far more than defense depth. Potential injuries being the reason to keep Niskanen is ridiculous to me because forward injuries and a lack of forward depth are much bigger issues for us. Our 4th d callup is likely as good or better than our 2nd forward call-up. And we are seriously playing Tanner Glass and Craig Adams on the 3rd line with only two injuries. That's terrible.

 

[UnrealMachine]

If we are healthy, Niskanen should be sitting. And Niskanen is worth too much in a trade to be sitting. Trade him for a forward who won't be sitting when we are healthy if at all possible. Its not like we don't need forward depth too. We need it far more than defense depth. Potential injuries being the reason to keep Niskanen is ridiculous to me because forward injuries and a lack of forward depth are much bigger issues for us. Our 4th d callup is likely as good or better than our 2nd forward call-up. And we are seriously playing Tanner Glass and Craig Adams on the 3rd line with only two injuries. That's terrible.

In fairness, they are on the 3rd line for as much a coaching decision as they are out of necessity. They have players who have played on 3rd lines in the past (Jeffrey, D'agostini, etc.), but keeping those players on the 4th line or out of the lineup makes it that much easier to keep Gladams in the unscratchable category when Beau & Neal come back. Some teams have Capologists, we have the #1 Vetologist in Bylsma.

 

[Ogrezilla]

In fairness, they are on the 3rd line for as much a coaching decision as they are out of necessity. They have players who have played on 3rd lines in the past (Jeffrey, D'agostini, etc.), but keeping those players on the 4th line or out of the lineup makes it that much easier to keep Gladams in the unscratchable category when Beau & Neal come back. Some teams have Capologists, we have the #1 Vetologist in Bylsma.

True story. I'm sure Disco straight up refuses to admit that Jeffrey - Vitale - Engelland has thoroughly outplayed Glass - Sutter - Adams in the games both have been in.

 

[Al Smith]

True story. I'm sure Disco straight up refuses to admit that Jeffrey - Vitale - Engelland has thoroughly outplayed Glass - Sutter - Adams in the games both have been in.

So you fail to see HCDB's grand plan in improving the fourth line by moving its worst components to the third line? Like Gretzky and Lemieux, he's just one or two steps ahead of the rest of the hockey world.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So you fail to see HCDB's grand plan in improving the fourth line by moving its worst components to the third line? Like Gretzky and Lemieux, he's just one or two steps ahead of the rest of the hockey world.

I'm perfectly fine with it if he reinserts Bennett into Adams' spot on the 3rd line and sits Adams. Let the 4th line get some chemistry

its pretty clear that isn't going to happen though

 

[BumFortyOne]

In fairness, they are on the 3rd line for as much a coaching decision as they are out of necessity. They have players who have played on 3rd lines in the past (Jeffrey, D'agostini, etc.), but keeping those players on the 4th line or out of the lineup makes it that much easier to keep Gladams in the unscratchable category when Beau & Neal come back. Some teams have Capologists, we have the #1 Vetologist in Bylsma.

Yeah, I can't understand why the bottom six hasn't been

Jeffrey-Sutter-D'Agostini
Glass-Vitale-Adams

though Engelland has looked surprisingly good at forward. But at least with this lineup the third line has a reasonable chance of producing offense and would likely be a better puck possession line. Oh well, at least Bennett will be back soon.

 

[jmelm]

How is my wanting to move Nisky so Des can get PT to take over for Oprik next year "short-sighted"? My whole reasoning for moving Nisky now if for the future of this team. Have you read anything I've posted in this thread?

Of course management sees Nisky as the better option than Des right now. That's the same management that extended DB and his buddies this summer, gave Dupuis almost 4M for the next 4 years till he's 38 and Sid's 30, and re-signed a 36 y/o Adams till he's 38 when we have guys who can take his role, and picked DP over FF and Truba. Maybe, just maybe, mgmt isn't always right all the time.

Drafting and scouting players is somewhat of a guessing game and crapshoot, so i'll give you that 20-20 hindsight statement about Trouba (although FF still hasn't done ANYTHING in the NHL yet that you can say definitively makes him a better prospect than DP). But when you're talking about evaluating trade offers that you have on the table, that is a whole different story, and much less of a guessing game.

No one is infallible, obviously, but as a whole, I trust them as a collective to know when and if it would be the right time to pull the trigger on a deal. We have ZERO idea what players are on the block, and even less so about what, if anything of decent value, is being offered to us for anyone of our players. I have criticized members of our management and coaching staff on multiple occasions before, so I am not a blind-homer. I'm a realist, and reality tells me that we have no F*ing clue what's going on behind the closed doors of GM offices in this league.

Like I said, I'm sure when/if Shero has a "great" offer for Niskanen on the table, he'll take it. And if he really felt that Despres was at least a lateral move, if not an upgrade over Nisky at this point, then maybe he would be willing to trade Niskanen for futures. But I think it's very clear that management and the coaching staff feels that Despres hasn't outplayed Niskanen/Maatta/Bortuzzo or forced their hand like those latter two guys have. In this regard, I trust them.

My comment about being short-sighted may not have been clear, so I'll clarify that. What I meant was: there is a huge gap in the information that we just don't have: who the Pens may re-sign/extend if the cap goes up, how much the cap may go up and if they want to see how it will before making such moves, who might be on the table, just how much they really value and rank each of their young guys overall and their NHL readiness, etc....

Your argument about Despres deserving a spot on this team because it will help him better adapt to having a bigger role next season is based on the possible, but completely unfounded, presupposition that management and the coaching staff views Despres as the guy who WILL/SHOULD replace Orpik next season, as the exclusion of other possibilities (such as the Pens possibly re-signing Orpik, thinking that Dumoulin would be a better fit in that role, having already decided that they would like Despres to be the guy that they trade instead of our other prospects, and a plethora of other factors). So sure: if you accept that your presumption is correct, then you would, in fact, not be short sighted.

But if you accept that there could be a multitude of possibilities -- including, perhaps, wanting to stack the deck and keeping Nisky and Orpik around all season, even if that means losing them as UFAs, because they think that's their best chance to win -- then suggesting to trade Niskanen for some unspecified return would be, in fact, short sighted and myopic. That is what I meant.

 

[GreatjonUmber]

Who do you sit? It should be a question of Maatta or Niskanen. They fill the same sort of role. Bortuzzo is the most unique of the three and we need what he brings. He should be 100% safe for the rest of the season barring some sort of collapse. A Maatta - Niskanen pairing just isn't a good pairing. But if we plan on sitting Maatta when we are healthy, he wouldn't have been kept up after 9 games. Plus, he's been straight up outplaying Niskanen.

Maatta Bortuzzo pairing > Niskanen Bortuzzo pairing > Maatta Niskanen pairing. Even if the first two are swapped, sitting Maatta is just awful asset management and player development.

If we are healthy, Niskanen should be sitting. And Niskanen is worth too much in a trade to be sitting. Trade him for a forward who won't be sitting when we are healthy if at all possible. Its not like we don't need forward depth too. We need it far more than defense depth. Potential injuries being the reason to keep Niskanen is ridiculous to me because forward injuries and a lack of forward depth are much bigger issues for us. Our 4th d callup is likely as good or better than our 2nd forward call-up. And we are seriously playing Tanner Glass and Craig Adams on the 3rd line with only two injuries. That's terrible.

I wouldn't expect any decisions to made regarding that to made until Maatta gets towards his 40 games (just after Xmas.) That'll come around the time (a little early) when Scuderi could be working his way back. If the grind of the season isn't showing any impact and his game doesn't regress I could see Niskanen being moved. If either of those things do happen I wouldn't be surprised if he gets sent back to his juniors team and Shero eats a year of his ECL to ice the best team possible.

 

[Pens1566]

Who do you sit? Olli-Bort has been arguably our best pairing and Nisky didn't look good paired with Olli.

Maatta. As good as he has been, and that legend has been exaggerated around these parts, I don't see him holding up over 82 games and then into the playoffs. And that's assuming he stays after 40.

 

[Malkin112*]

Maatta. As good as he has been, and that legend has been exaggerated around these parts, I don't see him holding up over 82 games and then into the playoffs. And that's assuming he stays after 40.

+ Olympics

 

[Shady Machine]

Maatta. As good as he has been, and that legend has been exaggerated around these parts, I don't see him holding up over 82 games and then into the playoffs. And that's assuming he stays after 40.

There is no reason to sit him unless he proves he is worn down. You are making assumptions based on zero evidence. Based on his reported work ethic and the amount of games he played last year, it's reasonable to think he can hold up. That said, I would be fine rotating him and Nisky out of the lineup down the stretch if Nisky is kept around.

 

[jmelm]

Maatta. As good as he has been, and that legend has been exaggerated around these parts, I don't see him holding up over 82 games and then into the playoffs. And that's assuming he stays after 40.

+ Olympics

There is no reason to sit him unless he proves he is worn down. You are making assumptions based on zero evidence. Based on his reported work ethic and the amount of games he played last year, it's reasonable to think he can hold up. That said, I would be fine rotating him and Nisky out of the lineup down the stretch if Nisky is kept around.

Agreed with Shady. I do think Maatta makes the Olympic team, but if he were not to, that would give him 2 weeks of "rest" right there. And as Shady said, we could always bring up some other young guys or put Nisky in Maatta's spot down the stretch to give him some additional rest, if needed.

And don't forget: we're talking about a kid here who, not only as Brooks Orpik says, "works harder off the ice and in the gym than anyone" he's ever seen at that age, but also a kid who has won the OHL championship and then gone on to the Memorial Cup in each of the last 2 seasons, which probably means he's played even longer than an 82 game season + 1-2 playoff rounds. He probably can handle it physically if he stays healthy.

 

[Shady Machine]

Agreed with Shady. I do think Maatta makes the Olympic team, but if he were not to, that would give him 2 weeks of "rest" right there. And as Shady said, we could always bring up some other young guys or put Nisky in Maatta's spot down the stretch to give him some additional rest, if needed.

And don't forget: we're talking about a kid here who, not only as Brooks Orpik says, "works harder off the ice and in the gym than anyone" he's ever seen at that age, but also a kid who has won the OHL championship and then gone on to the Memorial Cup in each of the last 2 seasons, which probably means he's played even longer than an 82 game season + 1-2 playoff rounds. He probably can handle it physically if he stays healthy.

I agree. I think someone looked it up and he played 91 games last year. That wasn't the NHL of course so he may get worn down but we always have Despres or Dumoulin that can come in and get some games. They could certainly use the NHL experience for next season.

Also, as much as I don't like the Nisky-Maatta pairing, it's fine for a few regular season games here and there. IF they are going to keep Nisky around, I wouldn't mind rotating the 3 of Bort, Maatta, Nisky. My only concern with that is one of Bort and Maatta sitting once the playoffs rolls around.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Which will absolutely 100% happen.

 

[Til the End of Time]

niskanen just needs to go. he's presence is Pejorative Sluring the development of good young players and he's taking up cap space that prevents the team from addressing their pitiful bottom six.

 

[Houston Penguin]

So much random **** in this post. I'm not actually sure what you are trying to say.

It wasn't random ... it was meant at one post, which you didn't apparently see. No worries.

 

[Houston Penguin]

What that balls? This post is all over the place, lol.

And yes Nisky is our 7th Dman:
Scuds-Tang
Martin-Orpik
Olli-Bort
Nisky

I knew you would get it as it was the response to your babble.

On NO day THIS year would Niskanen be our 7th, except in the minds of people like you who are currently valuing youth too much.

 

[Shady Machine]

It wasn't random ... it was meant at one post, which you didn't apparently see. No worries.

It was an incoherent argument but yeah, not a big deal.

 

[Houston Penguin]

niskanen just needs to go. he's presence is Pejorative Sluring the development of good young players and he's taking up cap space that prevents the team from addressing their pitiful bottom six.

He needs to go .... if a smart hockey deal can be made. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the mindset for many here.

 

[Houston Penguin]

It was an incoherent argument but yeah, not a big deal.

As was the precursor to it.

 

[mpp9]

He needs to go .... if a smart hockey deal can be made. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the mindset for many here.

Bortuzzo needs to be an everyday player for us. We need more guys like him come postseason. And Maatta is a part of the longterm plans. Pushing him out of the lineup for Nisky when we're healthy wouldn't be very wise.

Nisky has been a better D-man this season. But he's worth more to us as a trade pawn for forward help than blocking Maatta/Bort's development as a #4/5 here. We need to trust youth and pedigree if we want to move on from vets like Orpik this summer.

 

[Shockmaster]

If Vokoun is able to return (along with the eventual returns of Neal and Scuderi), do the Penguins even have the cap space to keep Niskanen?

 

[mpp9]

If Vokoun is able to return (along with the eventual returns of Neal and Scuderi), do the Penguins even have the cap space to keep Niskanen?

We needed to move Nisky to even get under the cap before the season. So no. Not without moving another significant contract.