We don't really discuss this much but mark my words, this is going to be a HUGE PROBLEM with the over-all health of the game....a good piece by Topher Scott....
Spiraling Costs in Minor Hockey
- Thread starter Corso
- Start date
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
To be fair, the costs for any travel sports program can be massive. My cousin played travel baseball throughout grade school and high school, and he seemingly got darted across the Midwest more often than he was in school. Have no clue how much was spent on him for that, and while he was a damn good pitcher at his level, he never got drafted back in the day when the MLB draft was enormous, so apparently even that didn't elevate his skill and profile to warrant rookie-level or indy league consideration.
But it has been pretty well-discussed and acknowledged that the cost of getting into hockey is the biggest reason for why the sport is more niche than football, baseball, and basketball.
As a dad with a young son, let me readily say that I'm very happy that my son's into basketball. Cheap, easy to organize, and about as simple and straightforward as anything to play just about anywhere. Nothing about that is the case for getting into hockey, from time commitment, to intial and subsequent investments into equipment, to general hassle of getting ice time, etc., etc.
But it has been pretty well-discussed and acknowledged that the cost of getting into hockey is the biggest reason for why the sport is more niche than football, baseball, and basketball.
As a dad with a young son, let me readily say that I'm very happy that my son's into basketball. Cheap, easy to organize, and about as simple and straightforward as anything to play just about anywhere. Nothing about that is the case for getting into hockey, from time commitment, to intial and subsequent investments into equipment, to general hassle of getting ice time, etc., etc.
Porter Stoutheart
Ineptly Tanking
- Jun 14, 2017
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Yeah, I don't really see the problem. I had one kid who was athletic enough to be able to play Tier 1. It really did cost at least $20k per year to "keep up with the Joneses". He played with and against NHL draft picks. It's fun while it lasts... if you can afford it. But there is absolutely NO SHORTAGE of players in this category, so it really doesn't affect the overall product at the level of pro hockey. Yes, some kids who can't afford it get left by the wayside. Flip side, kids who CAN afford it - and can afford to further ramp it up to $50k or $100k per year even - get a level of development that turns them into far better players than ever seen before for their level of natural talent. You really don't HAVE to have some kind of natural gift or rare talent to make it... as long as you do truly love the game and work at it and have that financial investment backing you.
You do have to find out near the end of the road that you have the genetics also. At least in terms of size. But by that time, you've already spent the money.
I think the only real problem is that of course some who are "borderline" in terms of being able to really afford it will over-extend themselves financially, or create undue family stresses that cause internal psychological damage within families. Those are definitely problems too. Just at a micro- level instead of a macro- level. It would be a lot better if the "crazy" could be taken out of the process for the good of the kids. But that's the real issue here, not any worry about "the good of the game" or how many top level athletes we graduate into the pros or whatever.
You do have to find out near the end of the road that you have the genetics also. At least in terms of size. But by that time, you've already spent the money.
I think the only real problem is that of course some who are "borderline" in terms of being able to really afford it will over-extend themselves financially, or create undue family stresses that cause internal psychological damage within families. Those are definitely problems too. Just at a micro- level instead of a macro- level. It would be a lot better if the "crazy" could be taken out of the process for the good of the kids. But that's the real issue here, not any worry about "the good of the game" or how many top level athletes we graduate into the pros or whatever.
Complaints about the cost of hockey are older than I am. While gear is a legit cost, travel at an elite level is an even bigger issue. I don't think there ever will be a solution to this. You might as well dream up ways to make the cost of Equine sports cheaper.
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
Didn't.we just have this thread? I am nearly 54 and the costs were outlandish when I played.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
So this topic does come up from time to time. As a parent of two kids in hockey, I have some thoughts...
First of all there are two different questions - the "cost of hockey" versus "cost of elite hockey". I think hockey has a lot of benefits to kids - learning lessons of hard work, dedication, teamwork. The physical benefits of playing a physical game (more so than baseball or soccer I think). So I do think as a society we should make sure hockey is affordable.
So we should always be concerned just about the "cost of hockey". But in my experience, if you just want your kid to play hockey - on a one practice, one game per week schedule - the cost is not bad at all. I have a third kid who doesn't play hockey, but instead does martial arts. The cost for him is the same as for a "basic" hockey program.
For those parents who can't afford basic hockey - there are programs as well. Groups will help pay for fees. You can buy used equipment, and even then lots of parents will often help out with hand-me-downs.
So you get all the benefits I mentioned above from "basic" hockey.
But then there's the cost of "elite" hockey. Tier 1, AA/AAA, whatever it gets called. It is definitely way, way more than "basic" hockey.
So there - do we have as much concern as a society? How much does it matter if the top programs can cost $30k per year, which is more than some people might make in an entire year?
I mean personally I don't like it. My family makes sacrifices to put our kids through hockey. We probably spend more than some people think is smart (I'm pretty sure my oldest kid cost us about $10k for this season). But there are things my kid would love to do that we just can't afford - or we're not willing to make the even bigger sacrifices / take on debt to be able to afford.
But does that affect his hockey career? Well probably. If we could put him into an elite hockey academy he'd have a better shot at making it at even higher levels. So is that fair? And if it isn't fair - what do you do about it?
So I think a lot of it boils down to "life isn't fair".
Admission to elite universities heavily favours the rich and powerful. You can do the right extra-curriculars, go to the right prep schools (which cost money). Even if you do get admitted, the tuition for Harvard is (holy shit!) $76k US. Not total - per year. (does include room and board). Even if my kid could get admitted I could never afford to send him.
Back to hockey - you can't prevent a parent from putting their kid into power skating, or spring hockey, or sending them to a physical trainer or nutritionist - all of which has small but real benefits. If you can't afford to do so - well your kid is at a small but real disadvantage.
Not that I think the hockey world should be unconcerned about cost. I get a little bit worked up about some of the fees in hockey that have nothing to do with on-ice performance. Why do we need to pay for a bunch of "swag"? Why do they need matching track suits for a team that'll last 6 months? Why do we need to buy a suit that my kid will wear to the game and promptly take off?
I think hockey coaches and managers should have a hard look at those kind of expenses, and be sympathetic that even if the majority of parents can afford these things, that it is a barrier to entry to some who can't.
And the biggest expense - travel! Now this is going to depend on ability and how popular hockey is in your area. But to go back to the article @Corso posted a bunch of U9s don't need to travel and be spending night in hotels to find quality opponents. Or if you do need to travel you can travel closer to home. I'm okay with the "out of town tournament experience" - it's always a highlight of the year. But you're paying for the experience - not hockey development.
Finally - does this mean that the hockey world is missing out on the next Gordie Howe - some farm kid who was a freak of nature? Maybe yes. But then what are you going to do about it? From a Hockey Canada perspective there probably are some tinkering they could do to develop top-end talent (I'm curious about a Canadian National Development Team) but it certainly isn't worthwhile to start offering free or subsidized power skating to tens of thousands of kids across Canada.
So true. I also think this is why we so see many NHL draft picks are second generation NHLers. (In fact the Senators have at least 3 right now). What other professions create the climate where someone could succeed at an elite level between the time costs and the financial costs.
- Aug 24, 2011
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Ignore the costs for a second, how do parents give so much of their time away by having their kids in travel leagues? I made a travel baseball team when I was a sophomore in high school or so. When I saw the schedule it was an instant no from me. I really liked baseball, naturally good at it, had fun playing it, but I'm not traveling to Ohio from Illinois every other week to go play some random travel team that's apparently really good too. My cousin was in a travel soccer league, EVERY WEEKEND going all over the state, sometimes all over the country, for some dumb games. His parents would go with him everywhere too of course. It sounds like hell on earth.
We just had our first child, I CAN'T WAIT until he is old enough to start playing sports. If it's apparent that's something he likes I'm going to put him in local park leagues and then have him play for his local high school team. Maybe he'll get a scholarship or something. No way am I traveling all around the country so my 13 year old can go play baseball. Life is short, I don't know why people are so willing to do that. Humbly, I think 99% of these parents are totally chumping out. Wasting way too much of their money and their time. The odds of becoming a pro athlete are slim to none and even if your kid is clearly gifted in hockey (or whatever sport) the odds of him making it are basically non-existent.
To each their own but I think it's all one big silly ruse.
We just had our first child, I CAN'T WAIT until he is old enough to start playing sports. If it's apparent that's something he likes I'm going to put him in local park leagues and then have him play for his local high school team. Maybe he'll get a scholarship or something. No way am I traveling all around the country so my 13 year old can go play baseball. Life is short, I don't know why people are so willing to do that. Humbly, I think 99% of these parents are totally chumping out. Wasting way too much of their money and their time. The odds of becoming a pro athlete are slim to none and even if your kid is clearly gifted in hockey (or whatever sport) the odds of him making it are basically non-existent.
To each their own but I think it's all one big silly ruse.
Travelling around the country to play better teams in sports you love sounds like "hell on earth" to you?
I'm going to have to take a look more into the European development model to see what can fit over here. I do know that European soccer clubs sponsor their own sport academies that cover the full cost to play and travel. In time, due to the emerging demographic crisis (in all hockey playing nations), this is something that the NHL may have to strongly consider.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
So I'll let you in on a hockey parent secret: out of town games are fun for the parents.
So this is only my experience as a hockey parent in Canada. Maybe travel baseball in the US is different.
When you go to an out-of-town hockey tournament though, you get away from work. You stay at a hotel. Maybe you get away from your spouse, or maybe it's a chance to get out of town with your spouse. You're eating out at restaurants (and ordering drinks). You go back to the hotel. Kids are splashing around in the pool, or running amuck in the halls - while the parents drink.
It's a big parents party.
Now none of this has to do with player development. Your kid is not going to get better because you travel to play. You can almost certainly find quality opposition locally. You're spending money that isn't going to improve your kids game.
But it is fun for parents, and no where near hell on earth (if you can afford it). Which is why I like having one out-of-town tournament per year just for the experience of it, but otherwise think it's a waste of money.
Spoken like a true rookie parent. Youth sports has changed. I am probably older than you (48) and it is definitely different than I was a kid. When my daughter, now 11, started playing in the Rangers Learn to Play, I said I would put off travel until she was at least 13. What I didnt realize was unlike when I was a kid, "House League", at least around here was a pretty much a beginner program and after a year would be a waste of time. While I do not travel all over the country, we do travel all around a small state land wise (NJ) for games and clinics. Why? Because she loves playing, she loves working with her goalie coach and as a parent it is my job to help her pursue her passions. I am under no illusion that she is going to get a D1 scholarship or play professionally. If I am not going to spend my money and time on my kids, then what am I going to spend it on? It is not all about chasing a dream of going pro or even college for free.
I also think you may have a different understanding of what is meant by "travel sports". For most teams, travel simply means you are driving to another rink to play a game and other teams will come to your home rink. Yes, there are some elite teams in this area that travel greater distances, but that is because their kids are so much better that if they played with a non-elite travel they would simply dominate every game. Yes, I have seen those players. Or, teams that are so much better than every other more local team that they win every game 15-0 (or worse) and outshoot their opponents 75-3. No, I am not exaggerating. Before I had kids I umpired travel baseball and there were some teams that played local games just for practice and beat every team by the mercy rule.
My younger one has no interest in playing hockey as "It is too cold...." but did say she wants to start skating again and maybe try figure skating. I explained the rink is just as cold, and she seems ok with it. Starting her up again in the spring as she has other stuff going on through mid-match.
By you referring to your cousin's schedule as "...some dumb games.." tells me you simply did not love baseball as much as your cousin loves soccer. Which is fine. When I was 16 I received a call from a coach in our town asking if I wanted to play on his Babe Ruth team. Would be "travel" all around Nassau County. Wasn't interested. My local Little League had Senior division that went up to 15, and at 16 I aged out and was done with baseball. A bunch of my friends joined because they just wanted to play. I said, "thank you, but no thank you" as I was more focused on lifting for football and track.
Yup. Last weekend (MLK weekend) my daughter's entire organization went to a tourney in another state We stayed in the same hotel. We took over the lounge in the lobby. One parent even hooked up his laptop to the hotel tv so we could watch the Rangers game on one tv and the Bills-Ravens game on the other. Rented a few conference rooms so the kids can all hang out. Ordered food and made it a party. Yes, we cleaned up after ourselves so the staff wasnt left to do it. One father even asked for a vacuum, but I guess they werent allowed to lend it out. We took all the pizza boxes out to the dumpsters ourselves, as well. My kid's team was able to play 4 very competitive games against teams we have never played. Went 2-2 won two 1-goal games, lost a 1-goal game and lost in a shootout. Parents had a great time just hanging out with each other and having a few drinks.
My team is doing a 2nd tournament out of state in mid february, but only with 1 other team from our org. Will be much more low-key but we will still have a great time.
It is starting over here. Barcelona has/had an academy in Arizona. My friends kid went to it because he was starting HS during covid and wasnt going to be able to play where we were. There are private academies for hockey. Not aware of any association with NHL teams though. But, European soccer does not have a draft. So not sure it would be wise for the NHL teams to start something like this.
Those hockey "academies" are terribly expensive and yes, I understand that there is no draft in the various European soccer leagues, but I think the NHL needs to do a lot more at the grass roots level in order to help with costs.
They do. Each US team sponsors a "Learn to Play". Includes head to toe equipment to start. It is how most kids around here get started.
And, I read an article about the soccer academies. Basically, the downside of them if the kids do not make it to the pro teams. Education is not a high priority. If I can find it, I will post it. Feel like it was in the Athletic.
AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
- Jul 3, 2009
- 19,546
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Since I've commented in a number of these threads, I'll add something I haven't written in a previous one. The huge disadvantage hockey has with cost is the surface/venue it's played. Grass fields or wooden courts are nowhere near as expensive to maintain as a rink that is only used for one sport.
My comparison...my older son is a swimmer. Same concept/issue. We have to pay $380/month plus a separate cost for meets (priced by event, typically another $60-80 a month). A lot is based on the maintenance of the pool.
My comparison...my older son is a swimmer. Same concept/issue. We have to pay $380/month plus a separate cost for meets (priced by event, typically another $60-80 a month). A lot is based on the maintenance of the pool.
oldunclehue
Registered User
- Jun 16, 2010
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My two cents on the costs:
I have two boys in hockey, one is at the age where if he doesn't make AAA next year, he will likely go the Highschool route and get on with life. He likes the sport but doesn't have the drive to get to the elite level and I won't spend that amount of money going forward. It's such a fine line of when and where to spend your money. It is true, for every elite player that has the financial backing should do what they can if they have the financial backing and desire to get their kid as far as they can, spend the money and hope that your child is that 0.01% who make a living off the sport.
But thats a double edged sword, parents who think little Johnny is that kid, when they aren't at this point are willing to go into massive amounts of debt for that even slimmer chance of little Johnny making a living. This is where the business of hockey is cutthroat and evil. Academies, elite camps, travelling teams, "World" tournaments, agents, advisors, Junior teams, trainers, nutritionists etc .....these people are their business model. I wish it were more common place for people to give tough love to these parents, but its a free world.
The cost is high, but you can mitigate some of those costs by being realistic. My accountant is very much into statistics around hockey, when discussing hockey he often shows people the statistically probability a kid will make even Junior A in Canada....then lets people decide if spending $40,000 is a good investment.
With the financial pain currently in Canada and how bad it's going to get in the coming months/years, I hope parents don't risk their life savings or leveraging their homes etc against loans to hope and pray little Johnny is one of those 0.01%.
I have two boys in hockey, one is at the age where if he doesn't make AAA next year, he will likely go the Highschool route and get on with life. He likes the sport but doesn't have the drive to get to the elite level and I won't spend that amount of money going forward. It's such a fine line of when and where to spend your money. It is true, for every elite player that has the financial backing should do what they can if they have the financial backing and desire to get their kid as far as they can, spend the money and hope that your child is that 0.01% who make a living off the sport.
But thats a double edged sword, parents who think little Johnny is that kid, when they aren't at this point are willing to go into massive amounts of debt for that even slimmer chance of little Johnny making a living. This is where the business of hockey is cutthroat and evil. Academies, elite camps, travelling teams, "World" tournaments, agents, advisors, Junior teams, trainers, nutritionists etc .....these people are their business model. I wish it were more common place for people to give tough love to these parents, but its a free world.
The cost is high, but you can mitigate some of those costs by being realistic. My accountant is very much into statistics around hockey, when discussing hockey he often shows people the statistically probability a kid will make even Junior A in Canada....then lets people decide if spending $40,000 is a good investment.
With the financial pain currently in Canada and how bad it's going to get in the coming months/years, I hope parents don't risk their life savings or leveraging their homes etc against loans to hope and pray little Johnny is one of those 0.01%.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
I feel like the cost of ice is not that big a concern.
Just looking at City of Edmonton - most expensive ice (so winter, 4-11pm) is $335/hr. For comparison the better quality baseball diamond will run $50/hr.
But break it down per kid, that's roughly $10/kid for two teams (game or shared practice) and $20/kid for one team (single team practice). That's obviously not nothing, but hardly insurmountable.
If you're just playing community hockey, so volunteer coaches, lets say two hours per week (one game and one practice) that's what - $120 for one month.
Where hockey rapidly gets expensive is once you start throwing in travel, plus paid coaches, probably a demand for a bunch of swag, tournaments...
Just as one example since it's fresh in my mind. My kid just signed up for a spring hockey team. This is a for-profit team, not run by a local club. The cost for a 3 month season is $1600. That's 20 hours of practice, 3 tournaments, exhibition games, team apparel (jersey, socks, pants shell, workout gear), paid coach, 8 hours skill development. I bet you the cost of ice itself inly only 1/4 to 1/3 of the total price. I believe one of those tournaments is out of town so factor in cost of a hotel and travel on top.
oldunclehue
Registered User
- Jun 16, 2010
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I often see your posts and I agree with your message. Hockey is expensive at any and every level, can you find a local rec league etc that will cost minimal amounts with no travel etc....yes you can. But this is still out of reach for at least 50% of Canadians. Gone are the days of outdoor rink practice and games and rarely do people use old/hand-me-down gear. There are deals and things you can do, but regardless its out of reach for at least 50% of people and thats rising.
Now if you play minor hockey....more expensive even if its at a lower level, tournaments, travel, swag.
The rest is left to your imagination of how much money you can spend.
There is no solution, like everything in life, if you have the money and want to spend it....you can spend it.
Tough times ahead for the sport of hockey in North America.....and it's why when you go to an elite level tournament (Spring/Summer) the parking lot is full of Escalades, BMW's and Suburban's. You need money to get to that level.
- Aug 24, 2011
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Like I said, the schedule for my travel league would've had me going as far as Ohio from Illinois and everywhere in-between. That's too much. In Illinois we had a park league for 10-12 year olds, there was "Minors" and "Majors". The best kids all went to the "Majors" and we had a ton of fun. It had to have been something like 2 games a week and two practices a week. I think we at most had to drive 30 minutes away traffic pending. The same deal in the "Pony" league for 13-15 year olds. There was Pony A, AA, AAA. The kids who REALLY LOVED baseball would find a way to supplement high school ball with usually AAA. l was content enough with high school baseball and didn't want to travel that much so a travel league was out of the question. It's too much of a time commitment. I wanted to play baseball, see my friends, my family, play videogames, go see movies, etc...have a life.
To each their own of course, and we're going to get into some parenting opinions here but...
If my son isn't an obviously outstanding player, with a seriously SPECIAL level of talent, at a young age then I think the proof is in the pudding and I'll let him ride things out locally, play high school sports, and hopefully get a scholarship somewhere. I think it does more harm than good to have your child always busy with something and I've seen a ton of parents even in my extended family do it to their kids. A well balanced life as a teenager is IMHO much better than having them be tied up in commitments like it's a full time job on top of having to be a student and get their schoolwork done.
AtlantaWhaler
Thrash/Preds/Sabres
- Jul 3, 2009
- 19,546
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Wow...that sounds super cheap for ice maintenance and expense (utilities).
As mentioned previously, any sport once you get to higher level travel teams, gets crazy expensive. My younger son plays basketball on a local AAU team (travel is nowhere outside of a 90-minute drive) and even that is $1200 for 2.5 months.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
As I understand it the kids still attend regular schools - but then have a very intense series of practices and games after school.
Europe is just a very different development system. Yes, the pro clubs train the kids - but then you belong to the club for a period of time if you do "make it". And of course this is completely contrary to the player draft model we use in North America.
TCNorthstars
Registered User
I have a great time taking my kid around to play soccer. We will be in Cincinnati in March for a tournament. He will have a great time playing with his team. We will catch a Cincinnati FC game while we are there and eat in a restaurant or 2 that we don't have back home. We were in Columbus last fall. Went to a Crew game. Long car rides, yes. The smile on his face when they won the tournament in Columbus was priceless.
TCNorthstars
Registered User
Dang! My kid swims at a club 5 days a week and we pay about $100/month. Meet entries are about $30 per meet but there aren't a ton of those. Fortunately he is in HS swimming now and does track in the spring. So he isn't doing his club swimming from Dec-May.
Dirty Old Man
Yotah Hockey Club
Different sport, but a buddy of mine had a daughter that was a borderline elite gymnast. Her mom had been one, too, not NCAA-level but it was obvious where the daughter got the talent from.
Anyway, they were well down the road to their impending divorce (she was...a little nuts, tbh), so they'd take turns going to these travel meets. Buddy came out from Orlando to Phoenix, with all the other parents - all moms - had the time of his life. Would highly recommend.
