Rumor: Something brewing between CAR and CBJ?

[n8]

Laine for Kotekenemi and Necas

Can see a base around this.
$8.7M for $6.5M + $4.82M
CLB has $11M in cap space
CAR frees up $2.62M (gets out of Kotka's contract - 6 years left!)
CLB gets younger
CAR gets a Laine
I'll let y'all futz with draft picks, prospects, or retention to balance things out but I think there is sensible base here.

 

[Unbiased Fan]

Where is the sarcasm smiley? There has to be a sarcasm smiley with this post, doesn't there?

It’s a good base imo. Laine is the best player when healthy and canes clear cap space.

 

[JKG33]

Not sure I agree with that assessment of Laine. Yes he has missed time due to an unfortunate string of injuries and then player assistance, but given a clean bill of health his underlying numbers show him to be an impact forward.

I'm not saying the Jackets won't retain or take back cap since cap space is at a premium, but they're not going to take a loss just to move him. Expectation is that the Jackets will get a quality piece from a team or will wait the situation out. There are plenty of GM's out there who will be enticed by his size and shot.

I think that if a team offered future considerations for Laine (no retention and no salary dumps) Wadell would take that in an instant.

The problem is at what point does he have positive value? Like I think if Columbus were to take back say a Kotkaniemi or similar they'd get at least a decent pick/prospect for their troubles but contracts like his are even worse than Laine's. I'm sure Edmonton would happily pay to turn Kane into Laine but I wouldn't want that shitbag anywhere near my team.

So then the question is what amount of retention makes Laine have positive value? Even at 50% I can't see team rushing to fit him into their lineups, and even then most teams would need to send salary back.

And since Laine's already quit on 2 teams, clearly he won't play for just anyone. So while the list of potentially interested teams that can also find a way to fit him under the cap is already short, how many of those are places where he won't pout his way outta town again?

 

[Marioesque]

I think that if a team offered future considerations for Laine (no retention and no salary dumps) Wadell would take that in an instant.

The problem is at what point does he have positive value? Like I think if Columbus were to take back say a Kotkaniemi or similar they'd get at least a decent pick/prospect for their troubles but contracts like his are even worse than Laine's. I'm sure Edmonton would happily pay to turn Kane into Laine but I wouldn't want that shitbag anywhere near my team.

So then the question is what amount of retention makes Laine have positive value? Even at 50% I can't see team rushing to fit him into their lineups, and even then most teams would need to send salary back.

And since Laine's already quit on 2 teams, clearly he won't play for just anyone. So while the list of potentially interested teams that can also find a way to fit him under the cap is already short, how many of those are places where he won't pout his way outta town again?

That's quite bitter. It shouldn't bother you this much that a worthless player in your opinion left Jets (he didn't quit on Jets).

As a fan you can have an emotional "he's garbage" attitude because you're upset he left or whatever, but GM's don't use the same criteria to evaluate him.

 

[JKG33]

That's quite bitter. It shouldn't bother you this much that a worthless player in your opinion left Jets (he didn't quit on Jets).

As a fan you can have an emotional "he's garbage" attitude because you're upset he left or whatever, but GM's don't use the same criteria to evaluate him.

I couldn't give two shits about the Jets, so swing and a miss there.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Laine is indeed as good as you and other fans say he is. He's not, but I'll concede solely as an assumption for this next point...

The best ability, is availability. Now I know any player can get injured at any time, but Laine's missed a lot of time due to injuries and then you also factor in the mental side which has also caused him to leave mid season. What GM of a good team is going want to gamble between $4.5m-$9m of his team's precious cap space on that player? Where if he gets hurt, winds up back in the program, or even quits on another team, you're screwed. And then to pay assets on top of that? The market is extremely limited

 

[innitfam]

Laine for Kotekenemi and Necas

Could see this too although leaves Carolina pretty thin at C after Aho (assuming the plan was for Necas to be 2C)

 

[Marioesque]

I couldn't give two shits about the Jets, so swing and a miss there.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Laine is indeed as good as you and other fans say he is. He's not, but I'll concede solely as an assumption for this next point...

The best ability, is availability. Now I know any player can get injured at any time, but Laine's missed a lot of time due to injuries and then you also factor in the mental side which has also caused him to leave mid season. What GM of a good team is going want to gamble between $4.5m-$9m of his team's precious cap space on that player? Where if he gets hurt, winds up back in the program, or even quits on another team, you're screwed. And then to pay assets on top of that? The market is extremely limited

We'll have to wait to find out.

"Now I know any player can get injured at any time, but Laine's missed a lot of time due to injuries"

Yes but he has also healed from those injuries and is now healthy. The NHL teams make sure to get doctors reports on these sorts of investments. If he had an underlying problem, that would certainly lower the value. But random injuries over the years don't suggest an underlying problem. If his bones were more brittle or something, the doctors would know.

So they're not selling some mystery box, they're selling a well known commodity. And you think his value is "future considerations".

 

[Unbiased Fan]

Could see this too although leaves Carolina pretty thin at C after Aho (assuming the plan was for Necas to be 2C)

I mean not saying it was a good idea but Laine was a C last season

 

[JKG33]

We'll have to wait to find out.

"Now I know any player can get injured at any time, but Laine's missed a lot of time due to injuries"

Yes but he has also healed from those injuries and is now healthy. The NHL teams make sure to get doctors reports on these sorts of investments. If he had an underlying problem, that would certainly lower the value. But random injuries over the years don't suggest an underlying problem. If his bones were more brittle or something, the doctors would know.

So they're not selling some mystery box, they're selling a well known commodity. And you think his value is "future considerations".

Injury histories and games played are absolutely factored in by GM's building a team. And you conveniently ignored his time in the program, which as not PC as it is to say will also be factored in to his value by GMs. As will him quitting on two teams.

Add in the fact that even when he's been healthy and available, he's still been wildly inconsistent over his career... he's quite possibly the biggest mystery box of a player that you could pick out in the entire league. At least for non-goalies.

 

[Marioesque]

Injury histories and games played are absolutely factored in by GM's building a team. And you conveniently ignored his time in the program, which as not PC as it is to say will also be factored in to his value by GMs. As will him quitting on two teams.

Add in the fact that even when he's been healthy and available, he's still been wildly inconsistent over his career... he's quite possibly the biggest mystery box of a player that you could pick out in the entire league. At least for non-goalies.

Injury histories yes , as in the context of "is there some underlying issue".

Medical professionals don't go "He has had random injuries before, so he will have random injuries in the future" because they are bound by science and not feelings. Of course some slick negotiator can try to throw that in but a smart GM would just ignore such attempts to swindle. He's healthy now, he's a great player when healthy. Jackets can use him, if nobody offers enough to convince them to let go of him.

He did not quit on either team. He was actually surprised to get traded the first time, and this time he had asked for a trade because he needed a new start but he's still going to play for the team until the trade is found, if that's what it takes. He played his last game for Winnipeg and dominated it, then he was out with injury.

Yeah I kinda did ignore his time out with depression. If he wasn't healthy they would have kept him in the program, if he was depressed he wouldn't want to come back (he didn't want to play hockey when he entered the program). I certainly don't think that people who focus on their mental health are damaged goods, not for any PC reason but just life experience.

 

[JKG33]

Injury histories yes , as in the context of "is there some underlying issue".

Medical professionals don't go "He has had random injuries before, so he will have random injuries in the future" because they are bound by science and not feelings. Of course some slick negotiator can try to throw that in but a smart GM would just ignore such attempts to swindle. He's healthy now, he's a great player when healthy. Jackets can use him, if nobody offers enough to convince them to let go of him.

He did not quit on either team. He was actually surprised to get traded the first time, and this time he had asked for a trade because he needed a new start but he's still going to play for the team until the trade is found, if that's what it takes. He played his last game for Winnipeg and dominated it, then he was out with injury.

Yeah I kinda did ignore his time out with depression. If he wasn't healthy they would have kept him in the program, if he was depressed he wouldn't want to come back (he didn't want to play hockey when he entered the program). I certainly don't think that people who focus on their mental health are damaged goods, not for any PC reason but just life experience.

While you might want to look at pace and hypotheticals to value Laine, I'll look at what he's actually done or not done. But at this point I don't think we're going to change each other's opinion on what Laine is.

Do you think if he were a UFA today he would get $8.whatever his cap hit currently is?

Who do you think he's closer in value to, guys like Stamkos/Guentzal/Reinhart who all just signed in that ballpark a month ago, or guys like Skinner and Kuznetsov who were obvious negative value contracts? Because if you look at what he's actually done and the circumstances around it, he's far closer to the later than the former.

 

[Marioesque]

While you might want to look at pace and hypotheticals to value Laine, I'll look at what he's actually done or not done. But at this point I don't think we're going to change each other's opinion on what Laine is.

Do you think if he were a UFA today he would get $8.whatever his cap hit currently is?

Who do you think he's closer in value to, guys like Stamkos/Guentzal/Reinhart who all just signed in that ballpark a month ago, or guys like Skinner and Kuznetsov who were obvious negative value contracts? Because if you look at what he's actually done and the circumstances around it, he's far closer to the later than the former.

I honestly do not know what GMs would do in this hypothetical. I wish you understood you don't either. Philly just gave that money to Konecny in a very long deal and he is not a better player. Also older.

When healthy, he's a better player than the aforementioned. But I don't know how much the lack of playing last season would have shaved off his value in GM's eyes. How "uncertain" they would be. If they look at him when he's playing healthy they see a PPG player in a team that's been bottom of the barrel and doesn't have a functioning powerplay. One could easily argue that with better linemates and better PP, he'd be well over PPG.

So there's a lot to consider.

 

[wolfofthesteppes]

Future considerations for a player nobody except fans of his current team have heard of incoming.

 

[MTL Dirty Birdy]

Laine seems like a great add for the Canes to be honest if that is what it is. And he will likely be very cheap. Adds what they have been trying to address for years now if he finds his goal scoring again.

Reuniting with his WJC center??

 

[centipede2233]

Laine with some retention for KK, 2025 1st, a B prospect cbj likes and a 3rd rd pick in 2026 turns into a 2nd based if laine plays 80% of games in the next 2 seasons.

 

[MTL Dirty Birdy]

Injury histories yes , as in the context of "is there some underlying issue".

Medical professionals don't go "He has had random injuries before, so he will have random injuries in the future" because they are bound by science and not feelings. Of course some slick negotiator can try to throw that in but a smart GM would just ignore such attempts to swindle. He's healthy now, he's a great player when healthy. Jackets can use him, if nobody offers enough to convince them to let go of him.

He did not quit on either team. He was actually surprised to get traded the first time, and this time he had asked for a trade because he needed a new start but he's still going to play for the team until the trade is found, if that's what it takes. He played his last game for Winnipeg and dominated it, then he was out with injury.

Yeah I kinda did ignore his time out with depression. If he wasn't healthy they would have kept him in the program, if he was depressed he wouldn't want to come back (he didn't want to play hockey when he entered the program). I certainly don't think that people who focus on their mental health are damaged goods, not for any PC reason but just life experience.

Typically in the past players who battled depression nd other forms of mental illness took the more « socially acceptable » method of treatment- drugs and alcohol. Sure those players don’t miss half a season but they often ended up pretty inconsistent( Gomez). If he stuck with the program for that reason then All the power to him. I hope he’s turning a corner. He’s a gifted goal scorer nd I’d love to see him find his early form.

 

[hockeykicker]

guys, he was joking in the post. did we not pick up on this?

 

[57special]

But it's a weird rub. Do we assume injuries are linear or something?

I don't think this is a HFboards standard, if a player hasn't played in 7 months they're a completely unknown and risky commodity with negative value? I don't think I've seen that argument with others who have missed a big portion of the season.

No one said that, but if you are completely ignoring all of the missed games then you are naive. The ability to stay healthy is a major factor when evaluating any player. Laine clearly has missed a lot of games... what does a team do when that happens?
The negative value is clearly in relation to his cap hit. If he was making 2-3M instead of 8.7M (or whatever), then no one would be talking about him being negatively valued.

In the past three years Laine has missed 117 of his team's 246 games. That is just under half the games. No GM is going to blithely ignore that, and ignore the risk of this pattern continuing going forward.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I bet the trade is Jesper Fast for a 6th.

 

[Marioesque]

In the past three years Laine has missed 117 of his team's 246 games. That is just under half the games. No GM is going to blithely ignore that, and ignore the risk of this pattern continuing going forward.

A good GM might ask their medical staff to evaluate if there is a future risk. People are geared to find patterns but it can also lead to finding them where they are not, and that's what professionals in their field help with.

 

[WreckingCrew]

Can see a base around this.
$8.7M for $6.5M + $4.82M
CLB has $11M in cap space
CAR frees up $2.62M (gets out of Kotka's contract - 6 years left!)
CLB gets younger
CAR gets a Laine
I'll let y'all futz with draft picks, prospects, or retention to balance things out but I think there is sensible base here.

No futzing with draft picks required because this would be horrendous just with Necas and with Laine 50% retained, much less for a 2nd player with a cheap buyout and no retention on Laine. There is no Necas in a Laine trade

 

[Fro]

Edited for temporary attack of can't read worth a damns

 

[n8]

No futzing with draft picks required because this would be horrendous just with Necas and with Laine 50% retained, much less for a 2nd player with a cheap buyout and no retention on Laine. There is no Necas in a Laine trade

The only thing horrendous is Kotkaniemi's contract. $4.82M for 6 more years? Woof. The value of adding him into the deal is to get that anchor of a contract off your team's neck. It's also probably one of the few ways to make that cap work. If you don't want Laine, don't talk to me about. I'm not the GM who is being to connected to trade talks with CLB (by your own former GM! Amazed he said it publicly). You tell yourself whatever story you need to.

 

[Youngguns1380]

Canes fans please stop the KK trades for Laine. Laine playing 2yrs for the CBJ is better than paying for KK for the next 5-6 seasons.

 

[n8]

I dint see anything linking CBJ with CAR from that tweet post

"Eric’s the brains," Waddell said. "He's way smarter than I’ll ever dream about being. ... I have no doubt he’ll do a great job. We’re trying to make a trade right now, so...”

Waddell is the former GM of Carolina and current GM of Columbus. He's talking about Eric Tulsky the new Carolina GM and says we (Eric and I, Don) are trying to make a trade.