Some summertime fun: Comparing Crosby vs. McDavid best Playoff runs

[daver]

There is a narrative now that McDavid has the better four round playoff run than Crosby to go along with the better playoff run, period, in 2022. He also has the best SCF performance, or at least was better than Crosby's 2009 Cup performance. I would throw out the following as being open to debate.

Feel free to take on each point individually rather making a claim of one or the other being the better playoff performer.


1. Thru 3 rounds in 2024, McDavid was not as good as Crosby was thru 3 rounds in 2009.

2. Crosby's 2009 SCF performance is underrated based on point totals; McDavid's 2024 SCF performance is overrated based on point totals.

3. This makes it debatable whether McDavid's 2024 Cup run is better than Crosby's 2009 Cup run.

4. Crosby's 2017 SCF was as good as McDavid's 2024 SCF

5. Crosby's 2009 performance thru 3 rounds is as impressive as McDavid's 2022 run

6. Crosby's signature series (2009 vs. the Caps) is as impressive as McDavid's signature series (2022 vs. the Kings); perhaps more impressive given the hype and his goal totals

7. Crosby's 2018 run and 2010 run is more impressive than McDavid's 2023 run

8. Crosby's 2010 performance vs. Ottawa is the most impressive offensive performance between the two players in an individual series

9. Crosby's 2008 SCF was as good as McDavid's 2024 SCF.

 

[DitchMarner]

As far as this year's SCF: I see people harping on when points were scored. McDavid 2024 and Crosby 2009 followed basically the same pattern in the SCF: Starting and ending quietly in terms of scoring and doing their damage (or the bulk of it) in the middle of the series. The difference is McDavid scored a lot more and Draisaitl was MIA/injured whereas Malkin was outstanding. That's it. The fact that PIT won and EDM lost has nothing to do with anything like leadership or intangibles from the respective Captains.

I also disagree that Crosby's run in 2018 is as good as McDavid's run in 2022. Crosby did a lot of his damage against Philadelphia and then wasn't as good against a much better team in Washington. Crosby had a natural hattrick that in Game One that made the score go from 4-0 to 7-0 (I love how McDavid's points are worthless unless the score is tied or within one goal, but the same doesn't apply to Crosby) and then had four points (including two secondary assists) in a 5-1 Game Three win. McDavid was simply better than Crosby in round two. Also, he faced teams that were third (CGY) and eighth (LA) in goals against in the season. Crosby played teams that were 15th (WSH) and 16th (PHI) in goals against in the season. For that matter, the Senators were 19th in goal against in 2010.

 

[daver]

As far as this year's SCF: I see people harping on when points were scored. McDavid 2024 and Crosby 2009 followed basically the same pattern in the SCF: Starting and ending quietly in terms of scoring and doing their damage (or the bulk of it) in the middle of the series. The difference is McDavid scored a lot more and Draisaitl was MIA/injured whereas Malkin was outstanding. That's it. The fact that PIT won and EDM lost has nothing to do with anything like leadership or intangibles from the respective Captains.

The claim was when comparing their overall playoff runs, 2024 vs. 2009, it's not as clear as the point totals would indicate that McDavid's was better.

Yes, McDavid was better vs. the Cats than Crosby was vs. the Wings in their respective SCFs. If the Pens lost the SCF in 2009, the finger would have been squarely pointed at Crosby's lack of production similar to a potential loss in the 2010 Olympics. The Oilers did lose and part of the reason is that McDavid did not produce early enough to keep the Oilers from going down 3-0.

But Crosby was better after 3 rounds. He had the clear best individual series of the two (vs. the Caps) and was more consistent leading up to the SCF.

 

[daver]

I also disagree that Crosby's run in 2018 is as good as McDavid's run in 2022. Crosby did a lot of his damage against Philadelphia and then wasn't as good against a much better team in Washington. Crosby had a natural hattrick that in Game One that made the score go from 4-0 to 7-0 (I love how McDavid's points are worthless unless the score is tied or within one goal, but the same doesn't apply to Crosby) and then had four points (including two secondary assists) in a 5-1 Game Three win. McDavid was simply better than Crosby in round two. Also, he faced teams that were third (CGY) and eighth (LA) in goals against in the season. Crosby played teams that were 15th (WSH) and 16th (PHI) in goals against in the season. For that matter, the Senators were 19th in goal against in 2010.

Fair points. Just wanted to throw it out there given the focus on point total for arguments made for McDavid. I think there is an air of point accumulation that can be ascribed to McDavid more so than for Crosby. I agree that the 2018 series against the Flyers is one of those "point accumulation" scenarios for Crosby.

As for the bolded, I think GAs get thrown out the window in the playoffs. It's all about getting the W. And GFs and overall team strength also need to be factored in as does a goalie's hot streak or cold streak. The Oilers have tried to out-offense their opponents more often than not while the Pens were more balanced; winning with both high octane offense and solid team defense.

 

[JackSlater]

I hate comparisons of playoff runs or even focusing a lot on the playoffs in player comparisons but come on. McDavid's 2024 playoffs were much better than Crosby's 2009 playoffs. It's not close.

 

[daver]

I hate comparisons of playoff runs or even focusing a lot on the playoffs in player comparisons but come on. McDavid's 2024 playoffs were much better than Crosby's 2009 playoffs. It's not close.

You think going into their respective SCF's that McDavid's playoff run was better than Crosby's?

Crosby - 17 games, 14 goals (including six game opening goals), team leading plus 12, 1.65 PPG, one player within 100% of his point total

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

McDavid - 18 games, 5 goals, plus 7 (4th best), 1.72 PPG, four players within 100% of his point total

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[bobholly39]

There is a narrative now that McDavid has the better four round playoff run than Crosby to go along with the better playoff run, period, in 2022. He also has the best SCF performance, or at least was better than Crosby's 2009 Cup performance. I would throw out the following as being open to debate.

Feel free to take on each point individually rather making a claim of one or the other being the better playoff performer.


1. Thru 3 rounds in 2024, McDavid was not as good as Crosby was thru 3 rounds in 2009.

2. Crosby's 2009 SCF performance is underrated based on point totals; McDavid's 2024 SCF performance is overrated based on point totals.

3. This makes it debatable whether McDavid's 2024 Cup run is better than Crosby's 2009 Cup run.

4. Crosby's 2017 SCF was superior to McDavid's 2024 SCF

5. Crosby's 2009 performance thru 3 rounds is as impressive as McDavid's 2022 run

6. Crosby's signature series (2009 vs. the Caps) is as impressive as McDavid's signature series (2022 vs. the Kings); perhaps more impressive given the hype and his goal totals

7. Crosby's 2018 run is as impressive as McDavid's 2022 run

8. Crosby's 2010 performance vs. Ottawa is the most impressive offensive performance between the two players in an individual series

1. Overall through 3 rounds it's probably pretty close. McDavid was very good in rounds 1 and 2, but Draisaitl was better, and Bouchard was possibly as good/better. it's really in rounds 3 and 4 he stepped up more and was the very clear mvp. So - maybe it's close through 3 rounds, yes, and you could possibly even give Crosby the edge.

2. Crosby's final performance in 2009 is underrated because of point totals. Sure, I agree.
McDavid's final performance overrated because of point toals? No - I definitely disagree. He had an all-time great finals, and the points back that up. He was great throughout. The only blemishes for me are games 2 and running out of gas in game 7. Game 1 Oilers dominated (McDavid too) but hot goalie....game 2 fine nothing...game 3 late comeback in 3rd almost worked, but fell short...games 4 & 5 dominated and won with insanely high pressure...no problem with game 6 - he didn't score, but his team took the lead early and he didn't need to - game 7 he played pretty well, but pointless. McDavid & whole team out of gas in game 7. So no - not overrated. It's an all-time great final. It does fall short of Gretzky or Lemieux of course - those 2 were absolutely dominating in cup clinching games their first 2 cups - but it's still one of the greatest finals ever.

3. No it does not. McDavid was spectacular in rounds 3 and 4, the hardest ones. He was better overall than 2009 Crosby. He was also better overall than 2009 Malkin, though that's a bit closer. He has the best playoff run of the cap era. Crosby's run is great too - but it's definitely not as good.

4. No, it was not. But Crosby's 2017 finals was still amazing. McDavid was absolutely spectacular in games 3, 4 and 5 in the finals - in the absolute most high pressure environment possible, down 0-3 in SCF. But yes - Crosby's finals in 2017 is also very, very good. Not as good.

5. McDavid's performance through 2 rounds in 2022 is possibly the most impressive 2 round effort we've seen in hockey since peak Gretzky/Lemieux (Giguere too). He wasn't as good in round 3 though. That is of course unless you think McDavid's round 3 and 4 this year are even better for 2 rounds, which is possible. Crosby was much better in round 3 than McDavid was - so is it enough to say Crosby through 3 rounds in 2009 is better than McDavid in 2022 through 3 rounds? It's very close I would say. Tempted to say McDavid's run is better overall - but it helps that Crosby did so good (and helped his team win) in round 3 - so maybe edge Crosby.

6. Yes, I agree. In fact, I give the edge to Crosby here.

7. No, it is not. But I really wish Crosby could have won that round 2, because I really wonder how well he and Penguins could have done beyond that. I think he may have approached 40 points himself that playoff if they made it back to the finals. Crosby wasn't that good in games 5 and 6 losses to Washington, and it brings that overall run of his down.

8. I don't know. Maybe? They each have a lot of individual series where they dominated offensively. I'm not even sure I like this one more than his 2009 series vs Capitals. And McDavid has a few too that can hold up.

 

[JackSlater]

You think going into their respective SCF's that McDavid's playoff run was better than Crosby's?

Crosby - 17 games, 14 goals (including six game opening goals), team leading plus 12, 1.65 PPG, one player within 100% of his point total

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

McDavid - 18 games, 5 goals, plus 7 (4th best), 1.72 PPG, four players within 100% of his point total

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Yes, and then his finals was much better. Therefore his playoffs were much better. I don't care all that much though given that it's a small sample size against a very small number of teams.

 

[daver]

Yes, and then his finals was much better. Therefore his playoffs were much better. I don't care all that much though given that it's a small sample size against a very small number of teams.

This seems to be a contradiction. You seem to place a lot of emphasis on the SCF, a smaller sample size than the 3 rounds before the SCF, to the extent that it overrides a superior 3 round performance.

If the focus is on the SCF, I do not think McDavid's was better than Crosby's 2008 SCF and was not as good as Crosby's 2017 SCF.

To the bolded, when you say small sample size, what do you mean? A small sample size of overall games played in a career? Or a small sample size of a player's playoff resume.

 

[daver]

1. Overall through 3 rounds it's probably pretty close. McDavid was very good in rounds 1 and 2, but Draisaitl was better, and Bouchard was possibly as good/better. it's really in rounds 3 and 4 he stepped up more and was the very clear mvp. So - maybe it's close through 3 rounds, yes, and you could possibly even give Crosby the edge.

He stepped up in the SCF after it was effectively over. Down 2 games in the series and 4-1 in the 3rd period of Game 3. Full credit to a dominant performance in Game 5 when given the opportunity but also recognition that three of his four points in Game 4 were meaningless. I cannot place his performance in the "Oilers lost despite McDavid's production" category when his lack of production helped dig the 3-0 hole. I don't think it ranks above Crosby's 2008 SCF.

I think if we wanted to rate their individual series it goes something like this:

1. Crosby vs. the Caps (arguably the best of the post 2005 lockout era)
2. McDavid vs. the Stars
3. Crosby vs. Caines
4. McDavid vs. the Kings
5. McDavid vs. the Cats/Crosby vs. Flyers
7. McDavid vs. the Nucks
8. Crosby vs. the WIngs

 

[JackSlater]

This seems to be a contradiction. You seem to place a lot of emphasis on the SCF, a smaller sample size than the 3 rounds before the SCF, to the extent that it overrides a superior 3 round performance.

If the focus is on the SCF, I do not think McDavid's was better than Crosby's 2008 SCF and was not as good as Crosby's 2017 SCF.

To the bolded, when you say small sample size, what do you mean? A small sample size of overall games played in a career? Or a small sample size of a player's playoff resume.

There is no contradiction. He was better through three rounds, then he was better in the fourth round, so he was better overall than in any playoff run Crosby ever had. You seem to want to stitch together a run for Crosby to compare to McDavid's 2024 but it doesn't work that way, just grabbing five games here or 7 games there.

I am saying that playoff runs are small sample sizes and the opposition can vary wildly, so in general they are overrated when looking at a player. Making this basically pointless to me, in addition to being clearly a losing battle for anyone trying to pump Crosby up.

 

[daver]

4. No, it was not. But Crosby's 2017 finals was still amazing. McDavid was absolutely spectacular in games 3, 4 and 5 in the finals - in the absolute most high pressure environment possible, down 0-3 in SCF. But yes - Crosby's finals in 2017 is also very, very good. Not as good.

If you want to break it down into games, Crosby's Game 5 is his signature playoff game, he takes control of the game early on and puts the Pens in the driver's seat in the series given they were tied 2-2. He puts to rest any doubts of his playoff greatness in that game.

McDavid has his chance to make his mark early in the SCF but did not come through. He also had his chance in Game 7 but did not come through.

Crosby showed in 2016 and 2017 that he was in complete control of his game and was able to step up offensively in key games and key moments. More often than not, he positioned his team to avoid being in the "absolute most high pressure environment possible" to begin with by taking care of business early.

There is no contradiction. He was better through three rounds, then he was better in the fourth round, so he was better overall than in any playoff run Crosby ever had. You seem to want to stitch together a run for Crosby to compare to McDavid's 2024 but it doesn't work that way, just grabbing five games here or 7 games there.

Can you expand on this. By every metric, save for a marginally lower PPG, Crosby was superior statistically and played a superior two-way game.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Have we reached peak Crosby copium?

First off, stop trying to rewrite the 09 Finals. Crosby wasn't good in them, at all. 3 pts and -3 in 7 for someone who's fighting for 5th best ever isnt good. It wasn't just 1 or 2 bad games sinking him either, he was consistently subpar:

game 1: 0 pts, 2 shots, -1
game 2: 0 pts, 5 shots, E
game 3: 1 pt, 3 shots, -1
game 4: 2 pts, 3 shots, +2
game 5: 0 pts, 1 shot, -2
game 6: 0 pts, 1 shot, -1
game 7: 0 pts, 1 shot, E

Beyond the above, the series was 2-2 after 4 games. In the most important games, 5-7, Crosby was a combined 0 points, 3 shots, -3.

And second, McDavid's '24 run is the best run between the 2 players Cup or no Cup. McDavid has to far and away be the best player on his team for the Oilers to ever win one, Crosby had the luxury of not having to be the best player to win.

 

[JackSlater]

If you want to break it down into games, Crosby's Game 5 is his signature playoff game, he takes control of the game early on and puts the Pens in the driver's seat in the series given they were tied 2-2. He puts to rest any doubts of his playoff greatness in that game.

McDavid has his chance to make his mark early in the SCF but did not come through. He also had his chance in Game 7 but did not come through.

Crosby showed in 2016 and 2017 that he was in complete control of his game and was able to step up offensively in key games and key moments. More often than not, he positioned his team to avoid being in the "absolute most high pressure environment possible" to begin with by taking care of business early.



Can you expand on this. By every metric, save for a marginally lower PPG, Crosby was superior statistically and played a superior two-way game.

I am saying that McDavid was better through three rounds in 2024 than Crosby was in 2009. And he was then much better in the finals than Crosby was. McDavid's 2024 playoffs performance was clearly better than whichever was Crosby's best playoff performance.

 

[Gorskyontario]

McDavid had a better run. Crosby had a better team.

And second, McDavid's '24 run is the best run between the 2 players Cup or no Cup. McDavid has to far and away be the best player on his team for the Oilers to ever win one, Crosby had the luxury of not having to be the best player to win.

Malkin was absolutely dynamite that year. I think his 09 run rivals McDavids, even considering he had less points.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

McDavid had a better run. Crosby had a better team.



Malkin was absolutely dynamite that year. I think his 09 run rivals McDavids, even considering he had less points.

Agreed. IMO 09 Malkin, Kucherov back to back and McDavid 24 are easily the best post lockout playoff performances

 

[daver]

I am saying that McDavid was better through three rounds in 2024 than Crosby was in 2009. And he was then much better in the finals than Crosby was. McDavid's 2024 playoffs performance was clearly better than whichever was Crosby's best playoff performance.

How so? By every metric, save for a marginally lower PPG, Crosby was superior statistically and played a superior two-way game.

 

[Gorskyontario]

a superior two-way game.

This is false.

 

[McPoyle]

I see the myth of Crosby being a complete two way player continues to be perpetuated.

 

[JackSlater]

How so? By every metric, save for a marginally lower PPG, Crosby was superior statistically and played a superior two-way game.

Crosby didn't play a two way game to any notable degree. McDavid scored more and to my eyes was a more dynamic player and more of the focus in every game. Not that this matters anyway because McDavid's final series performance blows Crosby's away, as does his total 2024 playoff performance relative to Crosby's 2024 performance.

 

[BraveCanadian]

How so? By every metric, save for a marginally lower PPG, Crosby was superior statistically and played a superior two-way game.

lawl

 

[MadLuke]

It is hard to make a 2009 Crosby over 2024 McDavid for me

At ev
McDavid: 33 GF-21GA, 61.11GF%, 25 points
Crosby: 23GF-14GA, 62.16GF%, 21 points

ok, but the Oilers had their usual ridiculous 30% powerplay, lead by McDavid with 17 points on it, Crosby was second on his team with 10 pts, with a just fine 20% for a cup winner.

Even if you call it a tie at even strength, McDavid get the edge.

 

[McPoyle]

1. They are close IMO. Crosby was scoring more goals, but giving more defensively. McDavid was creating playmaking offense at an all time level, and playing better defensive hockey, all while suffering from a core muscle injury of some kind that limited his shot. Edge McDavid through 3 rounds.

2. Maybe, does not change the fact that McDavid was miles better.

3. It does not, see above.

4. Elaborate please. McDavid heavily outscored Crosby again in this final.

5. Nope. McDavid played the most dominant hockey through 3 rounds by anyone not named Greztky or Lemieux in 2022.

6. Is 2022 vs Kings McDavid's signature series? Are you simply counting up point totals and calling those the "signature" series? Seems counter to other arguments you have made.

7. Not even close.

8. Its debatable. See 2022 LA, 2022 Calgary, 2023 LA, 2023 VGK, 2024 LA as series that McDavid was similarly dominant. Crosby also has a few series at a 2ish ppg clip. Pretty minor point, I see why you put it 8th.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Have we reached peak Crosby copium?

That is kinda is the real question here.

The previously-hated Toews 'intangibles' argument has now been deployed for Sid which indicates a desperation level 8 or so, but I'm pretty sure they can dial it up another notch or two.

You'll know it's peak when they start claiming the Oilers would be better off if McDavid retired right now, or they start claiming when McDavid scores it's because the team is doing him a favor.

 

[BraveCanadian]

5. Nope. McDavid played the most dominant hockey through 3 rounds by anyone not named Greztky or Lemieux in 2022.

Maybe if you are considering offense only.. but right off the top of my head I'd put Gilmour 93 & 94, and to a lesser degree Forsberg 02 as contenders on that list.. not to mention defensemen and goalies and earlier players who my memory is failing on