HF Habs: Some statistics that explain the situation of the Habs

[ZUKI]

Going into the year everyone knew that it was a rebuilding year. Why is everyone acting like the sky is falling now that the team is losing?

It's a Habs forum board , What can be add ?

 

[ZUKI]

The Marc Bergevin house of cards fell apart without Carey Price.

What a surprise.

Bergevin ? his team went to the Cup Finals in his last season .

Under Hugues management, we finished last this previous season, and well, we all know how bad the team is doing right now .

Molson should have kept Bergevin instead of hiring Hugues and pewee coach MSL

 

[Walrus26]

Perhaps a lot easier to articulate it this way:

 

[MasterD]

Going into the year everyone knew that it was a rebuilding year. Why is everyone acting like the sky is falling now that the team is losing?

Losing is fine, I think, for most people here.
What isn’t fine is the way tons of guys just look like they don’t give a ****. They’re not to have around the young studs.

Dadonov obviously doesn’t want to be here and isn’t coming back to the NHL, just bench him. Release him. Send him to the AHL and hope he refuses. Whatever, get him away from the team.

Sams with Hoffman, Drouin, etc.

This is the worst habs roster I have ever seen so the results are acceptable to me. In fact they look better than they are since there are so many terrible teams this year. Not everyone in that awful pack of 7-8 teams is going to rebuild successfully, there's just not enough talent to go around.

I remember times where Sergei Zholtok was our #1 center, Patrick Traverse played for us, Murray Barron, Igor Ulanov, Brian Savage being on our top 6 for years…

This team has more talent then we had then, but the talent we have now doesn’t care, AND they’re disorganized.

Which, I mean, is perfect. We don’t want to win boring trap games. But it’s ugly as hell out there.

 

[MasterD]

I feel like we would be last if not for the Connor Bedard sweepstakes.

Goalies won us a few games that we shouldn’t have won early on. And CC/Suzuki.

 

[Habs13]

This isn't a problem stats can solve because we don't have the players to provide winning stats. Unless you count age and the effects in has when age creates decline

 

[Galaxydoggystyle]

We are in year two of this rebuild buckle up boys cause its going to be a lot longer to get this team in tip top shape to be a contender and not a pretender. I expect this team to be bottom feeders for another 3 years minimum and if they can compete and be ready before then great.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Not sure what the point of this thread is?

So your saying a bad, bottom feeder team, has bad stats?

Wow, who would have thought that?

You don't need statistics to explain anything,

All you need to do is look at the roster, watch the team play, and look at the standings,

That explains everything

Teams at the bottom of the standings will have poor stats, that is why they are at the bottom of the standings

Try to show me a bottom feeder team (in any league) that has good stats

Thank you!!!!

Someone had to say it. Most pointless thread in the history of pointless threads.

 

[donghabs98]

Why people want to quantify how a clearly rebuilding team is bad is beyond me.

This is what every cup winner (save maybe Boston) has done in the cap era. If you don't like it, watch a sport where the draft matters less, like European Football.



They didn't intentionally put themselves in a position to draft first last season either, that's why most of the front office and head coach got fired.

Its quite impressive when you think at how bad the team was last year despite the fact the team was assembled with the full intention of competing for the playoffs. Really says a lot about the roster construction. Mind you injuries to Price and Edmundson didnt help but to see such regression right at the start and such consistent losing is something. Even the blatant tanking Hawks had a decent start to the year. The 21-22 Habs were done by game 3-5.

 

[FerrisRox]

Its quite impressive when you think at how bad the team was last year despite the fact the team was assembled with the full intention of competing for the playoffs. Really says a lot about the roster construction.

I'm baffled to see an actual Montreal Canadiens fan, someone who seemingly follows the team and actually watched a lot of last season arrive at this conclusion.

To look at what happened last season and believe the issue was "roster construction" is a bizarre take.

Last year's roster lost more man game to injury than other team in the history of the sport. Among those loses were two absolutely crucial pieces of the roster, #1 defensemen Shea Weber, for the entire season and the franchise player, staring goalie and team MVP for all but a handful of games.

The rest of the roster was absolutely decimated. Nick Suzuki is the only player on the roster last year that played every game. In a shocking coincidence he was also the team leader in points.

Romanov and Evans were the only other guys that even made it to 70-games. As the season crumbled, Tyler Toffoli, Arturri Lehkonnen, Brett Kulak and Ben Chariot were all traded away.

I'm not going to tell you that this was an extremely well constructed roster - they were likely a bubble club that would have needed Price's heroics to succeed - but looking at last year's teams failure and pretending it was about "roster construction" is an insane conclusion that completely ignores what actually happened. 45 different players wore the CH last year. Six different goaltender suited up. 14-different guys played defence for the team. The roster was rarely the same from one night to the next. "Roster construction" is the not problem. The problem is the inability for the roster that was built to ever actually have a chance.

 

[Doc McKenna]

I'm baffled to see an actual Montreal Canadiens fan, someone who seemingly follows the team and actually watched a lot of last season arrive at this conclusion.

To look at what happened last season and believe the issue was "roster construction" is a bizarre take.

Last year's roster lost more man game to injury than other team in the history of the sport. Among those loses were two absolutely crucial pieces of the roster, #1 defensemen Shea Weber, for the entire season and the franchise player, staring goalie and team MVP for all but a handful of games.

The rest of the roster was absolutely decimated. Nick Suzuki is the only player on the roster last year that played every game. In a shocking coincidence he was also the team leader in points.

Romanov and Evans were the only other guys that even made it to 70-games. As the season crumbled, Tyler Toffoli, Arturri Lehkonnen, Brett Kulak and Ben Chariot were all traded away.

I'm not going to tell you that this was an extremely well constructed roster - they were likely a bubble club that would have needed Price's heroics to succeed - but looking at last year's teams failure and pretending it was about "roster construction" is an insane conclusion that completely ignores what actually happened. 45 different players wore the CH last year. Six different goaltender suited up. 14-different guys played defence for the team. The roster was rarely the same from one night to the next. "Roster construction" is the not problem. The problem is the inability for the roster that was built to ever actually have a chance.

I don't think that is correct. In 2000(perhaps 2001) we lost over 500 man game injures including Saku for 1/3 of the season. We averaged almost 7 skaters a game missing. We were no where close to that level of injuries last year. And to book end that season, habs had 3 or 4 season around that one year with 400+ man game injuries and still competed for the playoffs. Oleg Petrov was our best player with 47 points tied with Koivu. It was at a few seasons after that the habs had to redo all their conditioning for the players.

And that was a time when players never took a game off. Not for anything. Only 3 players above 67 GP and no one a full season. Look at that talent pool...Craig Darby as your #7 on the team for points and it took 78 games for that! Souray was totally garbage as well because of injuries. Last year was bad, but I don't think it touches this one. They finished 6th from the bottom and only 1 point from 8th. So you don't think last years roster was hot garbage? I think the 2001 team looks bad, but somehow last years team was worse than the sum of its parts. Which means it was bad roster composition. So sometimes its your roster, and other its your roster composition. Much like the trade for a winger when we needed our 19y/o dman.

		Scoring			Goals	Assists			Ice Time	Point Shares
Rk	Player	Age	Pos	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PP	SH	GW	EV	PP	SH	S	S%	TOI	ATOI	OPS	DPS	PS
1	Saku Koivu	26	C	54	17	30	47	2	40	10	7	0	3	18	10	2	113	15.0	1155	21:23	3.4	1.6	5.0
2	Oleg Petrov	29	RW	81	17	30	47	-11	24	11	4	2	1	21	9	0	158	10.8	1503	18:33	2.4	1.5	4.0
3	Brian Savage	29	LW	62	21	24	45	-13	26	9	12	0	1	16	8	0	172	12.2	1168	18:50	3.6	1.0	4.6
4	Martin Rucinsky	29	LW	57	16	22	38	-5	66	10	5	1	4	13	9	0	141	11.3	1093	19:11	2.5	1.2	3.8
5	Patrice Brisebois	30	D	77	15	21	36	-31	28	4	11	0	4	4	17	0	178	8.4	1903	24:43	3.3	2.5	5.8
6	Trevor Linden	30	C	57	12	21	33	-2	52	6	6	0	3	13	8	0	96	12.5	1185	20:47	1.3	1.5	2.8
7	Craig Darby	28	C	78	12	16	28	-17	16	11	0	1	0	13	3	0	97	12.4	1239	15:53	0.7	1.0	1.6
8	Chad Kilger	24	C	43	9	16	25	-1	34	7	1	1	1	14	2	0	75	12.0	772	17:57	1.4	1.0	2.3
9	Eric Weinrich	34	D	60	6	19	25	-1	34	4	2	0	1	12	7	0	81	7.4	1467	24:27	1.6	3.7	5.4
10	Dainius Zubrus	22	RW	49	12	12	24	-7	30	9	3	0	0	8	4	0	70	17.1	906	18:30	1.2	0.9	2.1
11	Andrei Markov	22	D	63	6	17	23	-6	18	4	2	0	0	3	14	0	82	7.3	1064	16:53	1.9	2.3	4.1
12	Jim Campbell	27	RW	57	9	11	20	-3	53	3	6	0	1	6	5	0	81	11.1	588	10:19	1.4	0.7	2.0
13	Patrick Poulin	27	LW	52	9	11	20	1	13	9	0	0	4	8	2	1	65	13.8	690	13:16	1.1	0.9	2.0
14	Karl Dykhuis	28	D	67	8	9	17	9	44	6	2	0	1	7	1	1	66	12.1	1049	15:40	1.5	3.4	4.9
15	Benoit Brunet	32	RW	35	3	11	14	-4	12	3	0	0	0	7	4	0	61	4.9	583	16:40	0.1	0.6	0.7
16	Stephane Robidas	23	D	65	6	6	12	0	14	5	1	0	0	5	1	0	77	7.8	1348	20:44	0.4	3.5	3.9
17	Eric Landry	26	C	51	4	7	11	-9	43	2	2	0	0	6	1	0	54	7.4	475	9:19	0.2	0.3	0.5
18	Sheldon Souray	24	D	52	3	8	11	-11	95	3	0	0	2	6	1	1	103	2.9	1072	20:36	0.3	1.9	2.2
19	Sergei Zholtok	28	C	32	1	10	11	-15	8	1	0	0	0	4	6	0	78	1.3	500	15:38	-0.2	0.1	-0.1
20	Richard Zednik	25	RW	12	3	6	9	-2	10	2	1	0	0	5	1	0	23	13.0	222	18:29	0.6	0.2	0.8
21	Juha Lind	27	LW	47	3	4	7	-4	4	3	0	0	2	4	0	0	36	8.3	367	7:49	0.0	0.3	0.3
22	Francis Bouillon	25	D	29	0	6	6	3	26	0	0	0	0	2	4	0	24	0.0	389	13:24	0.2	1.2	1.4
23	Xavier Delisle	23	C	14	3	2	5	-5	6	2	1	0	0	0	2	0	15	20.0	143	10:14	0.4	0.0	0.4
24	Arron Asham	22	RW	46	2	3	5	-9	59	2	0	0	0	2	1	0	32	6.3	389	8:28	-0.4	0.2	-0.2
25	Patrick Traverse	26	D	19	2	3	5	-8	10	2	0	0	0	1	2	0	16	12.5	411	21:36	0.3	0.4	0.7
26	Jan Bulis	22	C	12	0	5	5	-1	0	0	0	0	0	4	1	0	20	0.0	221	18:25	-0.1	0.3	0.2
27	Eric Chouinard	20	C	13	1	3	4	0	0	0	1	0	0	2	1	0	11	9.1	143	10:59	0.1	0.2	0.3
28	Craig Rivet	26	D	26	1	2	3	-8	36	1	0	0	0	2	0	0	22	4.5	496	19:04	-0.1	0.7	0.5
29	P.J. Stock	25	C	20	1	2	3	-1	32	1	0	0	0	2	0	0	9	11.1	110	5:31	0.1	0.1	0.2
30	Andrei Bashkirov	30	LW	18	0	3	3	-2	0	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	22	0.0	210	11:41	-0.3	0.2	-0.1
31	Christian Laflamme	24	D	39	0	3	3	-11	42	0	0	0	0	2	1	0	16	0.0	471	12:04	-0.2	0.4	0.2
32	Matthieu Descoteaux	23	D	5	1	1	2	-2	4	0	1	0	0	0	1	0	6	16.7	76	15:10	0.2	0.0	0.3
33	Johan Witehall	29	LW	26	1	1	2	0	6	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	18	5.6	267	10:17	-0.4	0.3	-0.1
34	Gino Odjick	30	LW	13	1	0	1	0	44	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	11	9.1	92	7:04	-0.1	0.1	0.1
35	Jose Theodore	24	G	59	1	0	1	0	6	1	0	0	0				1	100.0	3297	55:53	0.0	0.0	10.4
36	Jeff Hackett	32	G	19	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0				0		998	52:32	0.0	0.0	2.1
37	Darryl Shannon	32	D	7	0	1	1	-4	6	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	6	0.0	126	18:03	0.0	0.0	0.0
38	Francis Belanger	23	LW	10	0	0	0	-3	29	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2	0.0	45	4:30	-0.1	-0.1	-0.2
39	Eric Bertrand	25	LW	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0		13	4:20	0.0	0.0	0.0
40	Enrico Ciccone	30	D	3	0	0	0	-1	14	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0		9	2:57	0.0	-0.1	-0.1
41	Eric Fichaud	25	G	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0				0		62	30:52	0.0	0.0	0.1
42	Mathieu Garon	23	G	11	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0				0		589	53:34	0.0	0.0	1.3
43	Matt Higgins	23	C	6	0	0	0	-2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3	0.0	57	9:27	-0.2	0.0	-0.2
44	Mike Ribeiro	20	C	2	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3	0.0	21	10:38	-0.1	0.0	0.0
45	Barry Richter	30	D	2	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0		21	10:44	0.0	0.0	0.0
46	Jason Ward	22	RW	12	0	0	0	3	12	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	0.0	99	8:16	-0.3	0.2	0.0

 

[FerrisRox]

I don't think that is correct.

The Canadiens set the record last season.

The previous mark had been the 2002-03 Los Angeles Kings.

 

[malcb33]

The Canadian plays very badly and except 3 or 4 players, the situation of the team is pathetic. Here are some stats that explain a bit about what's going on with the team.
PK%= 24 rd in the league with 73.6%
PP=32 rd in the league with 15.1%
Goal For=29rd in the league with 105 goals
Goal Against=30rd in the league with 152
Face-Off%= 16rd in the league with 49.8%
Hits=28rd in the league with 742
BKS=8rd in the league with 638
GVA=30rd in the league with 416

Honestly, looking at these stats they should be lower in the standings than they currently are!

For me, this year was always going to be about gaining experience, and so far most of the young players are doing reasonably well considering. I hope Hugo is able to trade a few more vets and open up some spots for Farrell, RHP, Barron, and Ylonen to see what we have in them.

 

[Doc McKenna]

The Canadiens set the record last season.

The previous mark had been the 2002-03 Los Angeles Kings.

Sorry I finally found some numbers, checked and they claimed 700+ beating the kings in 2004
The Kings would fly right past their record of 536 man-games lost in the 2002-03 season with a mind-boggling, unfathomable 629 man-games lost to injury in 2003-04. In that disastrous season, 558 man-games were lost to injuries caused by contact, with another 48 lost to a player being hit by a puck

and this snippet:

The Canadiens set a new record on Friday night that has also caught the eye of many statisticians across the league, as Carey Price‘s return meant he was the 46th different player to suit up for Montreal this season. It tied a record for the Canadiens that was set way back in the 2000-2001 season; another injury-filled year and one of the worst on record in Canadiens history. The year I remember just players dropping almost every game.


Counting price and weber missing pretty much the entire season is 160 man games. But those have little to do with season contact or puck injury, mostly pre existing. Basically being retired. So I would call it a wash because in 2001 we didn't have THOSE kind of "injuries" nor Drouin taking a little break of 55 games because of stress. But yes they do count towards the record, just as price is still counting towards it this year, but really isn't part of the team. In 2001 we just kept losing guys both short and long term throughout the season. Gally is pretty much glass along with Byron and Armia. And they have been for a few seasons. I don't think Armia has ever finished a season.

In relative terms that was a good year for power donkey, less injuries than usual. 3rd highest games played in his career including his 1 and only full season.

Our huge list of vets that are on bad contracts and have injury issues says something about the guy handing out those contracts. 5 of our top 9 players can't play a whole season in almost half a decade. Gally(4 years) , Drouin, Anderson, Armia, Byron.

 

[StCaufield]

This is what happens when you have just two productive players on the team and opponents catch on and shut them down

 

[Habs Icing]

I've never been more proud of a sucky roster. First time in my life I witness the Habs actually having a direction and building towards the future.

Actually, I think they're half-assing it. If we re going for the tank, we're doing a bad job. We'll finish out of the top two tiers (Tier 1 Bedard, Two 2 Fantilli, Carlsson, Michkov). At best we'll be selecting players from the third tier of prospects. Granted the third tier this year is better than the first of most years but like I said the direction is half-assed.

 

[BLONG7]

Going into the year everyone knew that it was a rebuilding year. Why is everyone acting like the sky is falling now that the team is losing?

The easy schedule had us pick a few wins, and some...............thought maybe this would be a quicker than planned rebuild.............
Some.......

 

[Sasha Orlov]

One glimpse at the roster says it all really

 

[BLONG7]

In a world where your strategy is Carey Price, remove the said strategy and there's nothing left.

Marc Bergevin didn't used Carey Price to win. He used Carey Price to hide how much he sucked.

We have a winner..........

 

[Habs Icing]

In a world where your strategy is Carey Price, remove the said strategy and there's nothing left.

Marc Bergevin didn't used Carey Price to win. He used Carey Price to hide how much he sucked.

I think you're wrong. You see, I have a lower opinion of Bergevin's managerial skills than you do. You're attributing to him the awareness of having a bad team. I claim he absolutely believed he had a winning team. He wasn't using Price to hide anything.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

We are in year two of this rebuild buckle up boys cause its going to be a lot longer to get this team in tip top shape to be a contender and not a pretender. I expect this team to be bottom feeders for another 3 years minimum and if they can compete and be ready before then great.

This is nonsense imo, if Hughes needs this team to be a bottom feeder for another 3 years then his career as a GM is over.

I'm baffled to see an actual Montreal Canadiens fan, someone who seemingly follows the team and actually watched a lot of last season arrive at this conclusion.

To look at what happened last season and believe the issue was "roster construction" is a bizarre take.

Last year's roster lost more man game to injury than other team in the history of the sport. Among those loses were two absolutely crucial pieces of the roster, #1 defensemen Shea Weber, for the entire season and the franchise player, staring goalie and team MVP for all but a handful of games.

The rest of the roster was absolutely decimated. Nick Suzuki is the only player on the roster last year that played every game. In a shocking coincidence he was also the team leader in points.

Romanov and Evans were the only other guys that even made it to 70-games. As the season crumbled, Tyler Toffoli, Arturri Lehkonnen, Brett Kulak and Ben Chariot were all traded away.

I'm not going to tell you that this was an extremely well constructed roster - they were likely a bubble club that would have needed Price's heroics to succeed - but looking at last year's teams failure and pretending it was about "roster construction" is an insane conclusion that completely ignores what actually happened. 45 different players wore the CH last year. Six different goaltender suited up. 14-different guys played defence for the team. The roster was rarely the same from one night to the next. "Roster construction" is the not problem. The problem is the inability for the roster that was built to ever actually have a chance.

The team stunk if there wasn’t a single man game lost.

 

[NHLInjuryViz]

The Canadiens set the record last season.

The previous mark had been the 2002-03 Los Angeles Kings.

There's no "official" record, as far as I know, since it's not a stat the league appears to record, or at least it's left to the teams who count the numbers in inconsistent ways and often don't make them public. So if you can indulge the explanation of an amateur hack...

tl;dr version: The "record" holder depends on who you count - doesn't really matter since anything above 500 is a lot

Full version:
It was the 03/04 Kings who were reported as having the record with 629. No breakdown available from the time, but I tried to reconstruct it and got 637. Caveats to that: It includes a missed season by Adam Deadmarsh who never played again (but unclear looking back if he was known/understood to have effectively retired already), plus 67 games by Jared Aulin, who was a prospect with 17 games played the previous season, got traded at the deadline while injured and never made it back to the NHL (but had a pro career).

I don't know what the team itself recorded (if anything) but last year's Canadiens have been reported as having beaten the record with anything up to about 750. I had them at 599 but noting the following:

- I didn't count the first 13 games of Carey Price's absence while he was in the Player Assistance Program (though not entirely clear when he actually came out), though he was clearly still injured at the same time

- I excluded 82 games of Shea Weber on the basis of him being effectively retired (and replaced)

- I excluded 79 games combined from Joël Teasdale and Josh Brook being on Season Opening IR, since neither were realistic roster candidates

- I excluded 4 games that Gianni Fairbrother spent in Covid protocol while he was on the taxi squad not the main roster

So depending what you choose to count, they were somewhere between falling short of the Kings' number or blowing a mile past it. Obviously, the other significant bit of context is that the Canadiens had 70 games missed for Covid-related reasons and they didn't appear desperate to campaign for postponements when their big outbreak hit in December, unlike contending teams.

Breakdowns of the two teams (and the 500+MGL Canadiens of 2000/01) below FWIW.

 

[Galaxydoggystyle]

This is nonsense imo, if Hughes needs this team to be a bottom feeder for another 3 years then his career as a GM is over.


The team stunk if there wasn’t a single man game lost.

Uh what? if you think about it a little bit. In what shape was Hughes given the team in? How many bad contracts does he need to get rid of? How long do these bad contracts go for? It really isn't fair to give him such a short time to improve the team when he has to cut out the dead weight contracts and considering we had not ONE but TWO anchor contracts in Weber and Price I think 3 years isn't too much to ask honestly. This isn't even mentioning Gallaghers contract. If Hughes got the team MB got then yeah sure but the team Hughes got is/was total trash with HUGE contracts that need to be deal with first which takes time.

 

[1909]

I don't mind if Habs lose games this years or next...BUT it is the way they are losing them that is worrying me. In the last month or so, they are always 2-0 or 3-0 behind in the first period. Does MSL know how to prepare a team to be ready at the first puck drop ?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Uh what? if you think about it a little bit. In what shape was Hughes given the team in? How many bad contracts does he need to get rid of? How long do these bad contracts go for? It really isn't fair to give him such a short time to improve the team when he has to cut out the dead weight contracts and considering we had not ONE but TWO anchor contracts in Weber and Price I think 3 years isn't too much to ask honestly. This isn't even mentioning Gallaghers contract. If Hughes got the team MB got then yeah sure but the team Hughes got is/was total trash with HUGE contracts that need to be deal with first which takes time.

Another 3 years will have been 5 years. This is perpetual losing and how you become the Sabres or Coyotes. This year should be the last tanking year while we gradually add pieces to supplement the young core.