Soccer beats Hockey in the US

[Bear of Bad News]

Yeah, but that's a big IF to say attendance in Canada drops. You're just assuming, in a hypothetical situation

Yes. That's why I said "IF" to preface my statement.

that isn't going to happen.

It could happen. It's happened in Chicago, Boston and Detroit, all "Original Six" markets. And Canadian cities aren't exempt from fans staying away from the turnstiles for poor teams. We've discussed this a lot here already.

 

[Hasbro]

Because I like to have the sports I'm interested be accessible on television. The future of soccer is far, far, far brighter on the television media front than hockey. And people can rationalize and explain things away as those "durn for'ners" accounting for the popularity, but advertising dollars are going to go where the viewers are. The viewers watch soccer.

The XFL was all over tv, nobody watched that. WNBA.

Media hype does not necessarily equal viewership.

Here, here....as a fan of both, I don't know how you can be a fan of one but not the other.

Soccer seems to me like the "purest" team sport. As in, most other team sports are just soccer with more rules. Bat and ball games excluded, of course.

And excitement.

Soccer fans are the Jehovah's Witnesses of sports

 

[guyincognito]

Because I like to have the sports I'm interested be accessible on television. The future of soccer is far, far, far brighter on the television media front than hockey. And people can rationalize and explain things away as those "durn for'ners" accounting for the popularity, but advertising dollars are going to go where the viewers are. The viewers watch soccer.



Here, here....as a fan of both, I don't know how you can be a fan of one but not the other.

Soccer seems to me like the "purest" team sport. As in, most other team sports are just soccer with more rules. Bat and ball games excluded, of course.

The future of soccer in the US is

Maybe the future of South and Central American Soccer in the US is something worthwhile. But since we're talking about actual US product here, the NHL stomps the MLS and will continue to do until the sun grows to a great size and swallows up the Earth. Which is pretty sad because it's the only league the NHL does this to.

What viewers watch soccer in the domestic league? Seriously.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

That's not why you got criticized, but keep passing yourself off as a victim, by all means.

And you will keep denying the facts. Correct, Sotnos?

GHOST

 

[Sotnos]

And you will keep denying the facts. Correct, Sotnos?

GHOST

No idea what you're talking about. You mean those things you twist to your own purposes?

 

[undraftedstlouis]

What viewers watch soccer in the domestic league? Seriously.

It's a long and expensive commute to attend games in Europe. Some people want to see live sports in person. Those same people may actually like the product and watch other games on TV. Before 1996 the US went over 10 years without a pro league. The national team had no depth as only a handful weren't completely scarred by college soccer and able to make a career abroad. So fans of the national team should have some interest in MLS which provides depth to the team and identifies young talent that can more smoothly transition into the major European leagues.

Why do Swedes and Russians care about their hockey league? Because it's theirs! I think it's foolish to expect anyone to develop a first class league overnight and currently the US marketplace isn't strong enough to support bringing over the best players available (a few good players with marketing potential excluded). So I see nothing wrong with enjoying what the US can support and watching it slowly but surely improve as the sport continues to grow in the marketplace. MLS isn't and definitely hasn't been perfect. I wouldn't suggest anyone just watch MLS and ignore all other leagues. But I do think it's by far better than nothing.

There's no one absolute dominant soccer league in the world. The top players are spread over about 10 leagues with the bulk in 3-5 leagues. The culture of soccer is to support YOUR league and YOUR national team. So I don't get why it'd be so ridiculous to follow the domestic league if one has enough interest in the sport.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

Yeah, but that's a big IF to say attendance in Canada drops. You're just assuming, in a hypothetical situation that isn't going to happen. So who's really doing the generalizing now?

Are you trying to tell us that there aren't already past examples of attendance dropping in Canadian markets as well?

 

[Ozy_Flame]

I'm glad football is getting over with the fans in the US; the MLS is becoming more competitive, and with stars such as Beckham and Shevchenko at least considering coming over to play, that can only put the sport on the international level.

Frankly, I don't know why football isn't the #1 or #2 sport in the US; it is the world game, and does not get enough credit as a quality sport. The NHL has been lacking in recent years, so I'm not surprised they were surpassed.

 

[frivolousz21]

I'm glad football is getting over with the fans in the US; the MLS is becoming more competitive, and with stars such as Beckham and Shevchenko at least considering coming over to play, that can only put the sport on the international level.

Frankly, I don't know why football isn't the #1 or #2 sport in the US; it is the world game, and does not get enough credit as a quality sport. The NHL has been lacking in recent years, so I'm not surprised they were surpassed.

the mls gets 100K viewers on ESPN if they are lucky.

the game on tv I saw last night there were 10K people there maybe...I saw the goals of the week and most of time the stands were empty.

just because espn hypes it doenst mean its getting anywhere.

 

[Ozy_Flame]

the mls gets 100K viewers on ESPN if they are lucky.

the game on tv I saw last night there were 10K people there maybe...I saw the goals of the week and most of time the stands were empty.

just because espn hypes it doenst mean its getting anywhere.

10k at a soccer game in the US? I'd say they're doing fairly well then. That's better than I expected.

I think you will see the MLS elevate its game in the next decade or so, and raise the profile of football in North America. It is still in its infancy of television of broadcasting, but more people will warm up to it once the US team develops a better national program, and interntional stars such as Beckham raise the profile of the sport for kids and teenagers across the country.

 

[frivolousz21]

10k at a soccer game in the US? I'd say they're doing fairly well then. That's better than I expected.

I think you will see the MLS elevate its game in the next decade or so, and raise the profile of football in North America. It is still in its infancy of television of broadcasting, but more people will warm up to it once the US team develops a better national program, and interntional stars such as Beckham raise the profile of the sport for kids and teenagers across the country.

soccer has been the most played youth sport in the united states for decades.

if not the most..one of the most.

play it = fun

watch it = not so much

 

[Namso]

soccer has been the most played youth sport in the united states for decades.

if not the most..one of the most.

play it = fun

watch it = not so much

agreed 100%. I love playing soccer, i hate watching it. I hate playing hockey, but i love watching it.

 

[Killiecrankie*]

agreed 100%. I love playing soccer, i hate watching it. I hate playing hockey, but i love watching it.

Ya we would play it for two weeks each year in gym class...... 6 week unit of football, 6 week unit of softball, 6 week unit of basketball, 6 week unit of hockey, 4 week unit of volleyball.... soccer wasnt a very popular thing, in fact we played a version of soccer that you could use your hands but you couldnt run when you used your hands. And throwing the ball in netted you one point, kicking it netted two. All the sports I enjoy involved using my hands, using my feet to direct a ball just doesnt feel natural. I can catch and throw and shoot anything, I cant kick anything. Plus the game feels foriegn to me.

 

[Rocket]

the mls gets 100K viewers on ESPN if they are lucky.

the game on tv I saw last night there were 10K people there maybe...I saw the goals of the week and most of time the stands were empty.

just because espn hypes it doenst mean its getting anywhere.

MLS regular season games are averaging 207,552 households (not just viewers) on ESPN2. That's about the same number NHL typically drew on ESPN2 before the lockout. Not that bad for a 12 year old league with $2.4 million salary cap per team.

The game you saw last night was in DC an hour after a severe thunderstorm. Besides, Thursday nights are one of the worst nights for MLS games in terms of attendance. If you want to see an average MLS crowd watch on Saturday nights when most of the games take place.

I'm just setting some facts straight, not arguing that MLS is doing better than the NHL. I've said in my previous posts that I will not compare the two leagues for another 10 years. By then, MLS will have all the major markets covered, all the teams in their own stadiums, and a generation of fans that have grown up with the league.

 

[Wranglers110]

The XFL was all over tv, nobody watched that. WNBA.

Media hype does not necessarily equal viewership.

Probably the inverse of soccer, given that the sport receives zero hype and promotion yet pulls in a disproportionate amount of viewers. I don't think any main stream sports stations reported the existence of the Gold Cup until AFTER the United States had won it. And yet, more viewers than the Stanley Cup.

 

[undraftedstlouis]

MLS regular season games are averaging 207,552 households (not just viewers) on ESPN2. That's about the same number NHL typically drew on ESPN2 before the lockout. Not that bad for a 12 year old league with $2.4 million salary cap per team.

The game you saw last night was in DC an hour after a severe thunderstorm. Besides, Thursday nights are one of the worst nights for MLS games in terms of attendance. If you want to see an average MLS crowd watch on Saturday nights when most of the games take place.

I'm just setting some facts straight, not arguing that MLS is doing better than the NHL. I've said in my previous posts that I will not compare the two leagues for another 10 years. By then, MLS will have all the major markets covered, all the teams in their own stadiums, and a generation of fans that have grown up with the league.

It is curious to hear a hockey fan bash MLS ratings (the post this one quotes).

The game yesterday overlapped with USA-Argentina from Copa America, so I'd bet a few fans skipped the game to watch that. The crowd filled in some late in the game (7 pm start time meant some DC area workers would arrive late). Also for some silly reason MLS puts the press boxes and cameras on the main stand, so the camera shows the side that usually has fewer fans. Do MLS teams get 10k showing up? Yes, that's not a rarity. Most teams on Saturday evening can get 15-20k. It's no NFL. League revenue and salaries are not close to NHL #'s. But I don't think in the US the NHL has much on MLS as far as TV viewing. The reason for the NHL having salary budgets 10-25 times MLS teams is due to better gate revenue. With 3 times as many home games and similar sized venues, I doubt the NHL will lose that edge anytime soon.

 

[The Slap Shop]

We don't call California "Mexifornia" for no reason. Or well Northern Mexico.

Not being racist but that's what a lot of people call this area now.

 

[vancityluongo]

Also not being racist, but I'm kind of starting to think that if Crosby was Mexican then the NHL's popularity would also increase in the US.


Another thing I'm throwing out there: what if the NHL had Crosby or Ovechkin going out with Paris Hilton? Would that make hockey popular?

Again, I'm just saying random things. (I advise all serious posters to not take me seriously.)

 

[HeHateMeFrisbee]

I'm glad football is getting over with the fans in the US; the MLS is becoming more competitive, and with stars such as Beckham and Shevchenko at least considering coming over to play, that can only put the sport on the international level.

Frankly, I don't know why football isn't the #1 or #2 sport in the US; it is the world game, and does not get enough credit as a quality sport. The NHL has been lacking in recent years, so I'm not surprised they were surpassed.

when is shevchenko coming? If you mean on tour with Chelsea, ok...but he isnt coming to MLS anytime soon.

 

[Chileiceman]

It's a long and expensive commute to attend games in Europe. Some people want to see live sports in person. Those same people may actually like the product and watch other games on TV. Before 1996 the US went over 10 years without a pro league. The national team had no depth as only a handful weren't completely scarred by college soccer and able to make a career abroad. So fans of the national team should have some interest in MLS which provides depth to the team and identifies young talent that can more smoothly transition into the major European leagues.

Why do Swedes and Russians care about their hockey league? Because it's theirs! I think it's foolish to expect anyone to develop a first class league overnight and currently the US marketplace isn't strong enough to support bringing over the best players available (a few good players with marketing potential excluded). So I see nothing wrong with enjoying what the US can support and watching it slowly but surely improve as the sport continues to grow in the marketplace. MLS isn't and definitely hasn't been perfect. I wouldn't suggest anyone just watch MLS and ignore all other leagues. But I do think it's by far better than nothing.

There's no one absolute dominant soccer league in the world. The top players are spread over about 10 leagues with the bulk in 3-5 leagues. The culture of soccer is to support YOUR league and YOUR national team. So I don't get why it'd be so ridiculous to follow the domestic league if one has enough interest in the sport.

This is sooo true. If people all over the world had the same mentality as Americans, soccer would only be played in Italy, England, Spain and Germany, because everybody else would say "why would I want to watch my hometeam, when I can watch Real Madrid on TV" They watch their domestic leagues because they are theirs. People here in Chile cheer for Chilean soccer players, of which the majority happen to play in Chile, so they'll watch the league here. I don't know why Americans don't give a crap about their own players.
Or it'd be like a Philadelphia Flyer fan deciding to cheer for the Red Wings, because the Flyers suck.

 

[jk421*]

And yet Bettman doesn't realize this.

Why would he want a team in a guaranteed successful market like Hamilton when he can have a team in the the hockey utopia that is Kansas City.

Heh.

 

[guyincognito]

It's a long and expensive commute to attend games in Europe. Some people want to see live sports in person. Those same people may actually like the product and watch other games on TV. Before 1996 the US went over 10 years without a pro league. The national team had no depth as only a handful weren't completely scarred by college soccer and able to make a career abroad. So fans of the national team should have some interest in MLS which provides depth to the team and identifies young talent that can more smoothly transition into the major European leagues.

Why do Swedes and Russians care about their hockey league? Because it's theirs! I think it's foolish to expect anyone to develop a first class league overnight and currently the US marketplace isn't strong enough to support bringing over the best players available (a few good players with marketing potential excluded). So I see nothing wrong with enjoying what the US can support and watching it slowly but surely improve as the sport continues to grow in the marketplace. MLS isn't and definitely hasn't been perfect. I wouldn't suggest anyone just watch MLS and ignore all other leagues. But I do think it's by far better than nothing.

There's no one absolute dominant soccer league in the world. The top players are spread over about 10 leagues with the bulk in 3-5 leagues. The culture of soccer is to support YOUR league and YOUR national team. So I don't get why it'd be so ridiculous to follow the domestic league if one has enough interest in the sport.

Because, as someone else said, the MLS is A ball. There are so many more options now, just on FSC, for example. If you're willing to pay, even more options than that.
DC United was on ESPN, I think last night, pathetic crowd. I thought this was supposed to be a "storied" franchise in this league. Adu is playing in Salt Lake City.
Most of the national stars stay at home and stew in this league and get no real experience, tough experience. I'd rather see everyone in Europe, or even Mexico, or South America, playing at a higher level. Even the Cups, they go for the "easier" Cup and send lambs to be slaughtered in South America. WHY? Go for the one that means something, I'm sure they'll win twenty more Gold Cups down the road.

I just can't stand the MLS. I think it kills the national team and I think that is one place you could start to build a little bit, if even only a little bit. I'd rather see it fold and see a much stronger league be built. Have it mean something. Bribe UEFA to put the league in "Europe". If Israel can qualify in Europe for the WC, why not?

And to stretch back to the regular topic, that's why it was silly to say "soccer" beat "hockey" in the US, when the national league is largely a farce. Two very different situations. The NHL stomps the MLS, and that speaks badly for both leagues, I guess.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Why would he want a team in a guaranteed successful market like Hamilton when he can have a team in the the hockey utopia that is Kansas City.

Note that you're asking for what Bettman is thinking, not what I'm necessarily thinking, so I'm attempting to explain his thinking which I may or may not subscribe to.

Potential NHL Interest (Kansas City) - Current NHL Interest (Kansas City) >
Potential NHL Interest (Hamilton) - Current NHL Interest (Hamilton).

Or in layman's terms, there's more room for the league to grow in Kansas City.

 

[guyincognito]

Probably the inverse of soccer, given that the sport receives zero hype and promotion yet pulls in a disproportionate amount of viewers. I don't think any main stream sports stations reported the existence of the Gold Cup until AFTER the United States had won it. And yet, more viewers than the Stanley Cup.

Um, yeah, because it popped probably an 80 share in Mexican-American households, and 10 of the other 20 share probably had a family member watching it somewhere else.

If it was Canada-Guadalope?

 

[undraftedstlouis]

Because, as someone else said, the MLS is A ball. There are so many more options now, just on FSC, for example. If you're willing to pay, even more options than that.
DC United was on ESPN, I think last night, pathetic crowd. I thought this was supposed to be a "storied" franchise in this league. Adu is playing in Salt Lake City.
Most of the national stars stay at home and stew in this league and get no real experience, tough experience. I'd rather see everyone in Europe, or even Mexico, or South America, playing at a higher level. Even the Cups, they go for the "easier" Cup and send lambs to be slaughtered in South America. WHY? Go for the one that means something, I'm sure they'll win twenty more Gold Cups down the road.

I just can't stand the MLS. I think it kills the national team and I think that is one place you could start to build a little bit, if even only a little bit. I'd rather see it fold and see a much stronger league be built. Have it mean something. Bribe UEFA to put the league in "Europe". If Israel can qualify in Europe for the WC, why not?

And to stretch back to the regular topic, that's why it was silly to say "soccer" beat "hockey" in the US, when the national league is largely a farce. Two very different situations. The NHL stomps the MLS, and that speaks badly for both leagues, I guess.

All those options are ON TV. You can't go see them in person and they sparsely feature American players.

I don't see how MLS folding would lead to a stronger league being built. I'd bet whatever league you're imagining would collapse within 5 years. If you think UEFA would let a US league in, I suggest you spend more time studying UEFA and FIFA.

Soccer does not equal MLS. There's no need. Your reasoning about that thread title makes no sense. Noone made a claim about MLS before you started bashing it. You completely sidetracked the point made in the original post. Just because soccer is more fragmented doesn't invalidate the point that as a whole it's doing well and improving as a TV sport while the NHL is slipping in the US.

Anyways I used to think like you that all our best players should flee to Europe. MLS is still filling in holes in its player development system. Nothing is stopping the players from signing in Europe in their teens. MLS existing can't stop that. I'd suggest that players run a risk of stunting their career by being neglected abroad. A new coach walks in at some foreign club and brings in his own players or favors the domestic players. The US youth player then is stuck on a 5 year contract and is scrambling to find a new home. MLS has successfully placed most of our national team players in top European leagues. I don't see anyone being held back long (6 months max) when they want to go abroad. The national team would suffer for depth without MLS. It would also make the national team's coach bewildered in thinking about whether a good performance in the Czech league is better than Bundeliga II or a Scandinavian league (see Canada).