OT: So....what are you going to do?

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Still working, I work for an essential service(Banking), non stop all day. I feel overwhelmed and stressed(I feel like i want to cry sometimes). I also live with my mom whos taking care of my 87 year old grandma so I can't get sick. I only take one day off I max out OT trying to have a normal schedule and working as hard as I can to help the family.

My life is nothing compared to the struggles frontline health workers go through, so i don't want to say anything. Social distancing is a peace of cake with social media tbh.

While that's true, you've gotta give a lot of respect to bankers, vets, etc. who are putting themselves at risk every day to fulfill the needs of their customers.

I especially feel for grocery store workers. I worked there for a few years of my teens and absolutely hated my life there. I can only imagine now with the thought of infected customers coming in, the pressure from management and bitchy customers over non-important issues. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy lol.

 

[Caeldan]

Well, Ontarios list of essential businesses seems to include everything but entertainment and clothing/luxury retail. So pretty much business as normal already since most of those had voluntarily closed in the past week.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The shit is truly hitting the fan in Spain now.

 

[coladin]

Not fun for sure. I try to talk to friends, family and even colleagues on Skype quite a bit to keep things as normal as possible. And I try not to obsess too much about the news and social media (I'm not a Twitter or Insta user, so that helps. FB is bad enough...). I need to stop OCDing over COVID-19 stats though.

You can PM me if you wish. I'm a night owl.

In times like this, I only upload the OPH website, and desperately try to stay off any social media, which is not good for your mental health. Too much info out there, good and bad, and my brain doesn't really feel too keen about trying to figure out which is which!

 

[milkbag]

Its great to know that OC transpo was able to shut down services in the dead of winter for a strike because they were considered to be not an essential service and now magically McDonald's and shoe store employees are considered essential.

This is a joke. We are going down the "reactive" instead of "proactive" route right now. Sweeping shutdowns are clearly only going to happen when it's too late and out of control.

 

[Caeldan]

Unless the federal /provincial governments roll out a guaranteed /basic income plan where everyone is being given 30k a year, sweeping shutdowns will cripple the country long term.

People have bills to pay, and even if there is temporary forgiveness, things will need to be caught up eventually.

 

[TheDebater]

Unless the federal /provincial governments roll out a guaranteed /basic income plan where everyone is being given 30k a year, sweeping shutdowns will cripple the country long term.

People have bills to pay, and even if there is temporary forgiveness, things will need to be caught up eventually.

Sweeping deaths will cripple the country too, one would think...

 

[NorthCoast]

Unless the federal /provincial governments roll out a guaranteed /basic income plan where everyone is being given 30k a year, sweeping shutdowns will cripple the country long term.

People have bills to pay, and even if there is temporary forgiveness, things will need to be caught up eventually.

Yeah, I think UBI is going to be a reality until countries dig themselves out of this.

Best case I think this lasts a couple months until a combination of effective existing anti-virals/expanded healthcare capacity/herd immunity/protection for high risk individuals... reduces the fatality/infection rates to a point where not only can we handle the level of surge without it overwhelming the HC system, but that a gradual level of lower risk workers can get back to work.

I don't see any way of avoiding this regardless of what politicians do. It's not like life is going to go back to economic normalcy if they lifted the shutdowns today. Until a vaccine is developed there will be a huge percentage of the population that will continue to self-isolate both physically and economically. In other words, I don't see politicians lifting the shutdowns and then everyone heads out to the movies and begins booking cruises if the disease is still in the community and the threat of overwhelming HC systems, infecting your at risk loved-ones, social media shaming, etc, exists.

So even the best case is probably 6-12 months of severe economic downturn. Taxpayer debt will be the only way to stay afloat. It's not going to come out of social security or healthcare. Just a giant pile of debt...most likely it will be passed down to millennials, who are too busy playing at the beach to realize it's not just their grandparents we are trying to save here.

(Sorry millenials. Totally unfair/stereotypical shot. But seriously...just stay home and play some fortnite FFS)

 

[Caeldan]

Sweeping deaths will cripple the country too, one would think...

I mean, emotionally yes.
Financially, in all reality it would recover significantly faster given the demographic likely to be most impacted.

But I'm not saying go out and have covid-19 parties. I just don't see a complete shutdown of the economy being reasonable for this, especially if it's just for a couple weeks and ends up just pushing the peak of the curve into October instead of May.

 

[TheDebater]

I mean, emotionally yes.
Financially, in all reality it would recover significantly faster given the demographic likely to be most impacted.

But I'm not saying go out and have covid-19 parties. I just don't see a complete shutdown of the economy being reasonable for this, especially if it's just for a couple weeks and ends up just pushing the peak of the curve into October instead of May.

I suppose that is the biggest question mark with all of this. Who will, and when do they, decide that "it is time to come back out"? Will the virus simply disappear and then it will be safe again, or will the lock-down simply delay the inevitable which you suggested?

I think considering how many countries have approached this differently, we might actually have an answer to that when this is all said and done. If Trump allows things to go back to normal in the U.S, that will give us one approach, Italy and other European countries have completely shut down, so that is another approach, and at the moment, Canada is somewhere in between, so I suppose that is another way to deal with this.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think there is really just one agreed upon approach to this, from the majority of medical professionals.

Politicians choosing economic and political factors is what is creating differences at this point.

We have enough evidence to see what happens when you move quickly, and when you move slowly.

Trumps proposed move is simply deadly, and against medical advice. If he succeeds he will kill thousands of Americans, but why would he care?

 

[milkbag]

most likely it will be passed down to millennials, who are too busy playing at the beach to realize it's not just their grandparents we are trying to save here.

(Sorry millenials. Totally unfair/stereotypical shot. But seriously...just stay home and play some fortnite FFS)

Just wanted to clarify that the majority of those spring breakers were Gen Z university/college students, not Millenials. The majority of Millenials are all having kids of their own at this point.

 

[milkbag]

I mean, emotionally yes.
Financially, in all reality it would recover significantly faster given the demographic likely to be most impacted.

But I'm not saying go out and have covid-19 parties. I just don't see a complete shutdown of the economy being reasonable for this, especially if it's just for a couple weeks and ends up just pushing the peak of the curve into October instead of May.

We've been given the gift of foresight with the situation in Italy, Spain, Belgium, France etc etc. We can see the train coming right for us, and we have the opportunity to learn from other's mistakes.

20% of the world's population is currently on lockdown but apparently Canadian McDonald's is an essential service right now. Bite the bullet and do it now or have it forced upon us later at a much higher cost in human life, those seem like the only 2 options.

 

[DrEasy]

We've been given the gift of foresight with the situation in Italy, Spain, Belgium, France etc etc. We can see the train coming right for us, and we have the opportunity to learn from other's mistakes.

20% of the world's population is currently on lockdown but apparently Canadian McDonald's is an essential service right now. Bite the bullet and do it now or have it forced upon us later at a much higher cost in human life, those seem like the only 2 options.

Are you recommending closing all restaurant deliveries or only a subset thereof? And based on which criteria?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If someone working at a fast food restaurant has it they can easily pass it on to their coworkers. Many of those people are young enough to perhaps not get too severe symptoms. They are making food for the masses and packaging it and passing it on through the windows... Is this safe? They are wearing gloves at the window but not sure what's happening inside and I am not sure if the gloves prevent passing it on to the bag etc .. to the car ... Does anyone have the 411 on this?

They are recommending vigilant cleaning of surfaces , phones , ... So it would seem it can be transferred from surfaces.. I really do not know .. but this food is packaged in containers which have surfaces so is it safe?

Study reveals how long COVID-19 remains infectious on cardboard, metal and plastic: People may acquire coronavirus through air and by touching contaminated surfaces

 

[DrEasy]

If someone working at a fast food restaurant has it they can easily pass it on to their coworkers. Many of those people are young enough to perhaps not get too severe symptoms. They are making food for the masses and packaging it and passing it on through the windows... Is this safe? They are wearing gloves at the window but not sure what's happening inside and I am not sure if the gloves prevent passing it on to the bag etc .. to the car ... Does anyone have the 411 on this?

They are recommending vigilant cleaning of surfaces , phones , ... So it would seem it can be transferred from surfaces.. I really do not know .. but this food is packaged in containers which have surfaces so is it safe?

Study reveals how long COVID-19 remains infectious on cardboard, metal and plastic: People may acquire coronavirus through air and by touching contaminated surfaces

This is one link I have but it's written by a restaurant owner, so it might be biased: Food Safety and Coronavirus: A Comprehensive Guide

 

[milkbag]

Are you recommending closing all restaurant deliveries or only a subset thereof? And based on which criteria?

Do you think the people in Italy are upset they can't get Chinese takeout right now as the coffins pile up and burials become backlogged behind them? It's either act now at an economic cost, or be forced to later at both an economic and increased human life cost. Shit is going to be shutdown either way, why not buy time in the waiting game for the vaccine?

We're not going to magically be the 1 country that comes out of this unscathed, or with minimal losses. The entire world is hurting right now. Arguing over universal income is an issue for later, the time to act is now.

We've literally been blessed with being a few weeks behind this thing so we can see what our next moves should be, and it sure as shit shouldn't be half measures considering what's happening almost everywhere else-- people do not listen to recommendations, the government needs to clamp down harder.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

This is one link I have but it's written by a restaurant owner, so it might be biased: Food Safety and Coronavirus: A Comprehensive Guide

thanks for that .. informative

 

[NorthCoast]

I mean, emotionally yes.
Financially, in all reality it would recover significantly faster given the demographic likely to be most impacted.

But I'm not saying go out and have covid-19 parties. I just don't see a complete shutdown of the economy being reasonable for this, especially if it's just for a couple weeks and ends up just pushing the peak of the curve into October instead of May.

No, not just emotionally.

Set aside the high risk and let's just talk 20-44 year olds.

Approx Can/US pop: 120 mil
Current 20-44 Hospitalization rate for Covid among 20-44 year olds: 15-20%
ICU rate: 2%
Fatality Rate :.1%

It's very deceiving because the fatality rate is about the same as the common flu. But you cannot overlook the ICU rate of 2%. That is WAY higher than the common flu. The hospitalization rate for the common flu is only around 1.5%...spread out over a whole season.

So let say that only 20% of people get the virus over the next month or so. (20% is approx how many on the Diamond Princess became infected)

That is still:
24 mil infected.
3.6 hospitalized
480,000 in ICU (US/Can have approx. 180,000 total ventilators)
24k dead.

BUT...that's IF the system is not overwhelmed and IF only 20% become infected. When the system became overwhelmed in Italy, the fatality rate for 30-44 year olds increased to .3%.

So here is the cold water. Italy has only had 60k cases. Imagine if the number of infected actually hit 20% as did on the princess. How overwhelmed would we be? Could it look like:

24 mil infected. (20% of 120 mil 20-44 year olds)
3.6 hospitalized (15% hospitalization rate)
480,000 in ICU (2% ICU rate - US/Can have approx. 180,000 total ventilators)

24k dead. (.1% fatality rate)
72k dead. (.3% fatality rate)
240k dead. (1% fatality rate)
1.2 mil dead. (5% fatality rate on est. 24 mil infected in next few months)

Again, the numbers above are 20-44 year olds only. We don't know how infectious it really is, and we don't know how bad the fatality rate will get for 20-44 year olds in an overwhelmed state.

So, at what level is it acceptable loss? How much are we willing to gamble that it won't be more than a .1% fatality rate for low-risk adults when hospitals are completely overrun and staff are exhausted.

PS: I don't care if I am wrong so long as it's correct. If there is an error in my number please someone feel free to correct. Don't want to create panic, but this I think is what medical professionals are looking at and saying F%#k!

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

This is one link I have but it's written by a restaurant owner, so it might be biased: Food Safety and Coronavirus: A Comprehensive Guide

So my daughter just dropped off a 2 week or more order of groceries. After reading that article I wiped every container I was keeping down with those 99% disinfectant wipes and repackaged a bunch of it all while wearing rubber gloves. Paranoid or what? But like Robert Redford's character said in Spy Game... When did Noah build the Arc? Before the rain. Thanks again

 

[BoardsofCanada]

This is my opinion - nothing will go back to normal until we (Canada) have zero new cases plus three weeks. So three weeks after no new cases and I think schools will re-open, businesses etc. When that will be is anyone's guess.

 

[MakeOttawaGreatAgain]

If you are wiping things with alcohol, make sure that you scrub for 15 seconds and then let it dry for 30 seconds. Nurse approved method!

 

[L'Aveuglette]

I suppose that is the biggest question mark with all of this. Who will, and when do they, decide that "it is time to come back out"? Will the virus simply disappear and then it will be safe again, or will the lock-down simply delay the inevitable which you suggested?

I think considering how many countries have approached this differently, we might actually have an answer to that when this is all said and done. If Trump allows things to go back to normal in the U.S, that will give us one approach, Italy and other European countries have completely shut down, so that is another approach, and at the moment, Canada is somewhere in between, so I suppose that is another way to deal with this.

Sacrificing people to capitalism is not the way to solve this crisis. Trump can't wish the pandemic away just because he needs the economy not to collapse.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

If someone working at a fast food restaurant has it they can easily pass it on to their coworkers. Many of those people are young enough to perhaps not get too severe symptoms. They are making food for the masses and packaging it and passing it on through the windows... Is this safe? They are wearing gloves at the window but not sure what's happening inside and I am not sure if the gloves prevent passing it on to the bag etc .. to the car ... Does anyone have the 411 on this?

They are recommending vigilant cleaning of surfaces , phones , ... So it would seem it can be transferred from surfaces.. I really do not know .. but this food is packaged in containers which have surfaces so is it safe?

Study reveals how long COVID-19 remains infectious on cardboard, metal and plastic: People may acquire coronavirus through air and by touching contaminated surfaces

That's the scary part...if it's that difficult to keep a McDonalds sized business virus free...then grocery stores have no chance. And considering the critical mass of people panic shopping over the past week or two, it's a wonder there hasn't been an explosion in cases from those places.

 

[DrEasy]

That's the scary part...if it's that difficult to keep a McDonalds sized business virus free...then grocery stores have no chance. And considering the critical mass of people panic shopping over the past week or two, it's a wonder there hasn't been an explosion in cases from those places.

I'd be more worried about transmission via mass gatherings of people at the grocery store (and elsewhere) than about transmission via items bought there (which should still be wiped clean, of course).