So... Are the Penguins Even Going to Try?

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Personally, if I'm a Pens fan, I've already seen my team win the cup multiple times. I'd be content now keeping the team relatively competitive until Crosby retires as a Pen

If he plays 3 more years, Crosby has a really good shot at passing Ron Francis for top 5 in all time points and an outside shot at passing Gordie Howe. That’s pretty much the only thing I care about until he retires.

Granlund has luckily turned his career around in San Jose. He's been a huge addition to the Sharks. We thank you for helping us land Dickinson as well.

Glad you’re enjoying Granlund - he wouldn’t be producing those point totals in Pittsburgh.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The Pens made a bunch of moves last summer, while the Caps didn't. The Caps then traded a bunch of guys during the season, only to bass-ackwards their way into a playoff spot. The Pens got Bunting at the deadline, and whatever Kevin Hayes is these days.

Wouldn't say the Pens aren't trying, but what was the great move to make now?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I think more frustrating is this roster has seen a TON of turnover the past few years. And it’s largely been the same of fringe playoff team. Doesn’t matter who’s been GM or types of players acquired.

Much easier than making a ton of roster moves is switching out Sullivan (I don’t agree with HFPens that he isn’t a great coach but he’s definitely stale) and they just won’t.

 

[sxvnert]

Dubas wont make significant changes until he pushes Sully out.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Wouldn't say the Pens aren't trying, but what was the great move to make now?

I think some of the issue that comes in with discussions about teams making moves is that people assume that just because one team made a move that any other team could have. People forget that the free agent or team sending out the assets needs to be willing to also agree to that deal.

For example, if Team A signed a free agent for $6m people will say "Well, if Team A signed Player X, then why didn't Pittsburgh just offer him that much?" or "Team B got Player Y in a trade for a 2nd round pick, why didn't Pittsburgh just trade their 2nd for him?"

People lose a lot of the nuance and the variables involved in teams making moves.

 

[Turin]

Granlund has luckily turned his career around in San Jose. He's been a huge addition to the Sharks. We thank you for helping us land Dickinson as well.

Good for him but until he doesn’t get massively out scored playing an inflated role I’m not gonna put much stock in his point totals.

 

[Mike Jones]

Dubas is completely over his head there it seems. They are making win now moves like trading their first for Karlsson but then is selling pieces for futures and saying in his presser they are trying to do a on the fly rebuild?

His moves are puzzling me as well. The one reason, as you have stated, is that he seems to be taking the team in opposing directions and that can't possibly work out well for the team. You're either in win-now mode rebuilding. Which is it Dubas?

 

[CanadienShark]

If he plays 3 more years, Crosby has a really good shot at passing Ron Francis for top 5 in all time points and an outside shot at passing Gordie Howe. That’s pretty much the only thing I care about until he retires.


Glad you’re enjoying Granlund - he wouldn’t be producing those point totals in Pittsburgh.

True, I don't think he would be. It's one of those situations where a player just didn't fit with the team and is moved to a team that he fits like a glove and steps up.

Good for him but until he doesn’t get massively out scored playing an inflated role I’m not gonna put much stock in his point totals.

How about his all around play and leadership?

 

[Icarium]

Try what exactly? Discovering the fountain of youth? Because nothing else is going to make the Pens contenders anytime soon.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

His moves are puzzling me as well. The one reason, as you have stated, is that he seems to be taking the team in opposing directions and that can't possibly work out well for the team. You're either in win-now mode rebuilding. Which is it Dubas?

He turned net negative assets into a hall of fame player who produces positive value on the ice and a good amount of merch revenue off the ice. Everything Dubas has done has been about generating assets.

 

[hockeykicker]

washington traded lower draft picks to get guys on one year deals they can trade at the deadline this year (mangipane, chychrun) for possible higher return then they spent. plus they have backstrom and oshie coming off the books this year. they could end up having a whole lot of cap space next offseason too

 

[StreetHawk]

Gotta think Crosby will want to move in if the team makes no improvements and flat-lines, no?

Dubas would probably prefer that, he has no directly loyalty to Crosby and it would make his job way easier to just commit to a rebuild.

Pens got sold a few years back to a corporation. How much loyalty should Sid feel towards them? He will always be loved by the fanbase but Mario and his group are not the primary owner anymore.

He should do what he wants. If that’s compete in PO that’s likely going to have to be elsewhere. If it’s to play with only the Pens, then PO may not be a realistic outcome for them. If he’s fine with that, cool..

 

[filinski77]

Slightly above average goal tending and better seasons from Karlson, Rakell, Rust and as long as Sid, Malkin and Letang stay somewhat healthy the pens will make the playoffs. They were inconsistent last season but at periods and good play. Sullivan's leash has to be extremely short by now.

Goaltending: Don't expect them to get any better goaltending than they really have been the last couple years.

Karlsson: 34 years old and showing that his 100 point season 2 years ago was a huge outlier from where he's been at the last ~4 years

Rakell: 31 years old and for someone who was never 'elite', likely going just going through natural aging decline as a pro hockey player.

Rust: Had a good season last year actually, but is also 32. So expecting a 'better' season at his age is unrealistic. Most likely static or gradual decline.

Sid/Malkin/Letang: They are going to be 37/38/37 years old when the season starts. They all played 82 games last year. So most likely outcome for next season is that they actually miss some time, and an expected decrease in quality of play (which happens at those late 30's ages, even for star players).

"Pens will make the playoffs": Given all of the above, their team is very old and just with natural aging, SHOULD have many players expected to be on a gradual decline in performance. They have no good young players who should really be expected to be in the growth stages of their careers and take a step forward this season. And they also had their top players pretty healthy all year, which is unlikely (although possible) next season. The Capitals got better at Free Agency, and have young guys taking the next steps. The Devils got better, and have a ton of young players still on the upswing of their development, and should also definitely finish ahead of the Pens. Not to mention Detroit/Buffalo/Philly all didn't finish too far from Pittsburgh last season, and have a ton of under-28 players who still have room for development and to get better.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Pens got sold a few years back to a corporation. How much loyalty should Sid feel towards them? He will always be loved by the fanbase but Mario and his group are not the primary owner anymore.

He should do what he wants. If that’s compete in PO that’s likely going to have to be elsewhere. If it’s to play with only the Pens, then PO may not be a realistic outcome for them. If he’s fine with that, cool..

Crosby isn’t staying in Pittsburgh because he feels like he owes anything. He’s staying in Pittsburgh because he wants to finish his career there. JC people.

 

[StreetHawk]

"Pens will make the playoffs": Given all of the above, their team is very old and just with natural aging, SHOULD have many players expected to be on a gradual decline in performance. They have no good young players who should really be expected to be in the growth stages of their careers and take a step forward this season. And they also had their top players pretty healthy all year, which is unlikely (although possible) next season. The Capitals got better at Free Agency, and have young guys taking the next steps. The Devils got better, and have a ton of young players still on the upswing of their development, and should also definitely finish ahead of the Pens. Not to mention Detroit/Buffalo/Philly all didn't finish too far from Pittsburgh last season, and have a ton of under-28 players who still have room for development and to get better.

Starting with the top 3 spots in the Metro.
NYR, CAR are pretty much locks to get into the top 3 again.
NYI was the 3rd team of that group, so far no additions. But, relying more on a bounce back from Sorokin in net and Roy as a full time HC. Should still remain in the mix.

WC Group
Caps got some help. Still not a Cup contender, but still improved chances of PO.
Philly - dumped Atkinson. Trotz always has his group working hard until they revolt, but don't see that this season.
NJ - improvements and young group to get better. If they avoid injuries to Hughes they should make the PO, and more likely get into top 3.
CBS - not really a PO contender.

Then, still have to beat out one of Tor, TB, FLA, Bos for a WC spot.

Right now, that does not look promising. A lot has to go the Pens way.

 

[Extra Texture]

Yeah, Sullivan is a much bigger issue than Dubas is.

Nooooo, that cant be. Every time there is a thread on the pens I see so many "LOL Kyle Dumbass" posts that the Penguins problems must've started with him.

Not really sure what people want the Pens to do. They're circling the drain. If they make moves to try and be competitive, people whine about how they're hurting their future, and just need to get on with a rebuild. If they accept the reality, and stand pat, people are mad they're not competing enough. They tried to make moves last year, and a team badly in need of a new outlook failed to get to the playoffs. The best thing they could do is junk their entire coaching staff, but IMO their coach has more power in that organization than their GM, franchise legends, anyone in the org. And ownership wants it that way, and likes it that way.

It's a shame that the twilight years of some excellent, competitive players are going to be thrown away, likely playing with some cap dumps from around the league, like Hayes. It would hurt to see Crosby on a new team, but him and Karlsson demanding out would be a nice reality check to a complacent ownership group

The Pens made a bunch of moves last summer, while the Caps didn't. The Caps then traded a bunch of guys during the season, only to bass-ackwards their way into a playoff spot. The Pens got Bunting at the deadline, and whatever Kevin Hayes is these days.

Wouldn't say the Pens aren't trying, but what was the great move to make now?

As far as the roster moves go, this pretty much nails it.

The Caps this summer are analogous to the Pens last summer. They added a mercurial, boom bust "star" on huge money, a complimentary winger, and a defenseman of questionable quality. But their team is not wasting away under the same coaching staff that's been there for a decade, so I'm sure PLD, Mangiapanne and Chychrun will fare better than Karlsson, Reilly Smith and Graves did. To say nothing of the cap situation that gives the Caps the freedom to make moves after they also added talent last summer.

 

[StreetHawk]

Caps didn’t mortgage futures. Only a couple of 3rds and a second that they had gotten in prior deals or made up for in other deals. Sent Keumper and Jensen out to make room.

The bigger intention for the caps is to secure the goal scoring record for Ovy. So ensuring that he’s not having the same start to this season as last is a goal for them.

They may not have enough to make the PO. So they’d likely then flip the 2 ufas to be at the tdl if that is the case.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

As a Penguins fan it's been a wild ride.

Started to be a fan when they drafted Crosby.

They made the playoffs multiple years in a row 4 final appearances and 3 Cup wins.

It was bound to end.
Thing is the way it is ending was not as expected.
Rutherford which he did win us 2! Began to make some questionable trades. Whatever he left and got replaced.
Still had some promising pieces for the future.

Hextall comes in.

Marino and Matheson out for worse players.
Brings in Granlund a pass first and great at passing on the powerplay. Also takes mostly offensive zone draws.
What did Pittsburgh need? A defensive minded player or a goal scorer.

Hextall gets canned.

Dubas trades a 1st and cap dumps for Karlsson trying to fix the errors.
Doesn't work.

Now we here.

Obviously a lot more going on but we lack assets and are guys get a year older every year. We needed to make better moves to extend the window and unfortunately the last GM Hextall really burned us down.

I don't know if any GM would do well with what is left and I have mixed feelings on Dubas but this all just sucks.

 

[wetcoast]

It's not even about being "objectively" better. WSH is at least attempting something, which remains to be seen with PIT, especially now after losing Guentzel and trading away Reilly (though my understanding is this is an addition by subtraction).

Warren Foegele would have been a good get for them IMO.

So asies from Warren "yes I'll make the Pens a SC contender" Foegle what other moves did you want the Pens to make?

Hayes is probably a slight improvement over Carter and they got a 25 second rounder as well and Beauvillier is a good bargain bin pickup maybe he gets his career back on track.

the Pens simply didn't have a lot to work with.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

What exactly has changed with the ownership in terms of hockey ops philosophy? It's not like theyre pinching pennies. They have spent to the cap. They gave the GM a giant contract. They gave the coach a giant contract.

Private equity doesnt mean you dont spend to the cap, but they are short sighted and trading long term success for higher ticket prices/attendance now.

 

[KingsFan7824]

It's a shame that the twilight years of some excellent, competitive players are going to be thrown away, likely playing with some cap dumps from around the league, like Hayes. It would hurt to see Crosby on a new team, but him and Karlsson demanding out would be a nice reality check to a complacent ownership group

Karlsson already asked out of SJ, and Pit is about the best place he'll find to play. Still not an easy contract to dump. What contender is taking him? What average playoff team is a 34 year old Karlsson away from contending? He's already on that team in Pit.

If Crosby was chasing a Cup, it's a different story. He's got the 3 though. He hasn't made a stink about anything his entire career. He's a UFA after this season. Where would the demand out come from? Maybe if the Pens are a bottom 10 team come the deadline. Even if they're just the 8th seed, he'll stick around.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Crosby isn’t staying in Pittsburgh because he feels like he owes anything. He’s staying in Pittsburgh because he wants to finish his career there. JC people.

He may feel he owes it to Malkin and Letang as he was deployed to get them to re-sign two years ago.

The Pens are in trouble given the big 4 were healthy last year and they didn’t make it, now OTT has a goalie, Phi is better, WAS is better, DET is better. They’re gonna need to get lucky with their prospects and their goaltending. At least the PP, will be better, right? Couldn’t be worse, right, right?

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

He may feel he owes it to Malkin and Letang as he was deployed to get them to re-sign two years ago.

The Pens are in trouble given the big 4 were healthy last year and they didn’t make it, now OTT has a goalie, Phi is better, WAS is better, DET is better. They’re gonna need to get lucky with their prospects and their goaltending. At least the PP, will be better, right? Couldn’t be worse, right, right?

Ice cold take: Pens PP gets better and they still miss the playoffs. And I’m ok with that. The Pens have been overdue for some down years and I’m happy to watch the team get younger and collect assets while the stars chase history.

 

[StreetHawk]

It's a shame that the twilight years of some excellent, competitive players are going to be thrown away, likely playing with some cap dumps from around the league, like Hayes. It would hurt to see Crosby on a new team, but him and Karlsson demanding out would be a nice reality check to a complacent ownership group

Since like 2014, the Pens have only used 4 first round picks. Kapenen in 2014, Poulin in 2019 and 2 kids in 2022 and 2023. They've been trying to win for a long time. That will eventually take its toll on the prospect pipeline unless you get lucky in the draft or a free agent signing. More rare in NHL vs NFL to get round 4 or later guys who are good starters (middle of the lineup guys) for example.

At some point in time, your run ends when you are trying to make moves to get over the final hurdle.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

They were fortunate enough to have Dubas come in and make the big splash for EK.

Were they now..