So... about the tank.

[Ezekial]

If we don't make the playoffs for the next 4 years does anyone think Larkin walks?

 

[Ricelund]

If we don't make the playoffs for the next 4 years does anyone think Larkin walks?

I think Larkin is a Wing for life unless things get really (i.e. Melnyk-level) bad.

 

[MBH]

If we don't make the playoffs for the next 4 years does anyone think Larkin walks?

No, but you can bet resigning him will be expensive

 

[Henkka]

Will be fun times when Steve Yzerman as Red Wings GM questions Captain Larkin's ask for his salary.

"I did leave some salary on the table as a Captain of this team and it did lead to success. I suggest you to do same."

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

So, questions.

1) How about you guys? I have no idea who is here now that was here substantially pre-tank, but for that group, how're things? Are you becoming used to the Wings being awful? What's teh viewing experience like for you all? Is it game watching, or occasional standings watching?

2) What's the general feeling on the timeline? IMO, we're going to be talking about how Larkin provides steady veteran influence before we're talking about anticipated playoff success, but 95 wins in 3 years has made me bitter regarding the teams prospects, literally and figuratively.

3) Speaking of timelines, what kind of one does Yzerman have before the rumblings start? I think it was smart to bring him in when they did, as this probably extends that grace period up through the time the franchise actually tries to win. I think that may have somewhat to do with whether we start seeing some actual rewards from the tanking, though. If the Wings just keep sucking and there's no infusion of good young players, that might change the algebra a little.

4) Lastly, if you could re-live the past 3-4 years and have a team going 1 or 2 rounds deep instead of being well out of everything by Christmas, how many of the prospects the team got via the tank would you relinquish?

1) I thought the Wings were pretty awful to watch when they were winning the last time around. These days, I find them a little easier to watch because there are some promising new faces on the roster. I'm waiting to see more of the high-powered kids in the lineup. I think that'll create a lot more entertainment value. I'm comfortable waiting for that.

2) Larkin is going to have to be the elder statesman pretty soon here, but I'm okay with that. Ideally we'd be able to compete for all of Larkin's career, but it just didn't work out that way.

3) I think the next 1-2 years can be plausibly blamed on Holland and retooling for Yzerman's vision. Beyond that, we're going to have to see some major strides—not necessarily in the win column, but at least in terms of player development. As of right now, it looks like we're in position for that to happen. There are no guarantees, of course.

4) None. Winning was the wrong move before, and it would be the wrong move now.

 

[BinCookin]

So here are our most recent tank moves:

Nyquist <---> 2nd (Albert Johansson (D) + 2020 3rd
Jensen + 5th <---> Bowey + 2020 2nd
Tatar <---> Veleno, Mastrisimone, 2021 3rd

 

[Oddbob]

I long for a day when fans don't wish for the team to LOSE GAMES! Sadly this new generation thinks that is the way to do it.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

So here are our most recent tank moves:

Nyquist <---> 2nd (Albert Johansson (D) + 2020 3rd
Jensen + 5th <---> Bowey + 2020 2nd
Tatar <---> Veleno, Mastrisimone, 2021 3rd

There's quite a few more listed here: Detroit Red Wings NHL Trade History - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[HisNoodliness]

So here are our most recent tank moves:

Nyquist <---> 2nd (Albert Johansson (D) + 2020 3rd
Jensen + 5th <---> Bowey + 2020 2nd
Tatar <---> Veleno, Mastrisimone, 2021 3rd

I wish we'd done things like this earlier with players like filpula when they had value. Each of those is a solid move. The Tatar trade is looking particularly good right now.

Walking into 2020 with that extra 2nd and 3rd is nice too. I think the hope is that the real core of our team is built in the 2018-20 drafts. Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, AA, etc.- whoever sticks around- will be the more experienced pieces to mentor that core and still be good. But we really need some elite talent from these drafts. It doesn't matter if it's Zadina, McIsaac, Saarijarvi, Hakan special, 2020 1st, we need a few elite producers.

I hope Seider is the guy for our D and we can draft C, but if there's an offensive D that skates really well, and can cover for himself because of it, I'm strongly considering him over the similarly skilled C or W.

 

[Oddbob]

If we don't make the playoffs for the next 4 years does anyone think Larkin walks?

I can see him staying here for the long haul honestly, he seems the type to me. I also don't think we are that far away from the playoffs, if a few of Veleno, Zadina, Hronek, Rasmussen, Cholowski, Hirose, and Bertuzzi become significant contributors on offense and/or defence.

 

[Oddbob]

I wish we'd done things like this earlier with players like filpula when they had value. Each of those is a solid move. The Tatar trade is looking particularly good right now.

Walking into 2020 with that extra 2nd and 3rd is nice too. I think the hope is that the real core of our team is built in the 2018-20 drafts. Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, AA, etc.- whoever sticks around- will be the more experienced pieces to mentor that core and still be good. But we really need some elite talent from these drafts. It doesn't matter if it's Zadina, McIsaac, Saarijarvi, Hakan special, 2020 1st, we need a few elite producers.

I hope Seider is the guy for our D and we can draft C, but if there's an offensive D that skates really well, and can cover for himself because of it, I'm strongly considering him over the similarly skilled C or W.

Problem with selling off decent players when you are still competing decently is it's a little like giving up. I don't think you have to be #1 Cup favourite to be competitive in the playoffs, and even towards our end, we still took a strong Chicago team to 7 games, where we could have just as easily won that game 7 and moved on.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Problem with selling off decent players when you are still competing decently is it's a little like giving up. I don't think you have to be #1 Cup favourite to be competitive in the playoffs, and even towards our end, we still took a strong Chicago team to 7 games, where we could have just as easily won that game 7 and moved on.

I'd rather build fur sustained success than hope for flukes. I'm willing to give up on a team when its window is up

 

[Mijatovic]

So here are our most recent tank moves:

Nyquist <---> 2nd (Albert Johansson (D) + 2020 3rd
Jensen + 5th <---> Bowey + 2020 2nd
Tatar <---> Veleno, Mastrisimone, 2021 3rd

Not Good Return
Good Return
Great Return

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

1) How about you guys? I have no idea who is here now that was here substantially pre-tank, but for that group, how're things? Are you becoming used to the Wings being awful? What's teh viewing experience like for you all? Is it game watching, or occasional standings watching?

2) What's the general feeling on the timeline? IMO, we're going to be talking about how Larkin provides steady veteran influence before we're talking about anticipated playoff success, but 95 wins in 3 years has made me bitter regarding the teams prospects, literally and figuratively.

3) Speaking of timelines, what kind of one does Yzerman have before the rumblings start? I think it was smart to bring him in when they did, as this probably extends that grace period up through the time the franchise actually tries to win. I think that may have somewhat to do with whether we start seeing some actual rewards from the tanking, though. If the Wings just keep sucking and there's no infusion of good young players, that might change the algebra a little.

4) Lastly, if you could re-live the past 3-4 years and have a team going 1 or 2 rounds deep instead of being well out of everything by Christmas, how many of the prospects the team got via the tank would you relinquish?

1. It's a necessary evil. You need great players to be successful. We need a new foundation. We have a lot of important pieces now, but we still need a couple of more. And then it's going to take time to let them all mature with one another. I'd rather have what we have now then what we had before this. Meandering in nothing is a lot worse than having an achievable goal. This is true in any aspect of life.

2. We have another two years of outright rebuilding I think, before we start trying to cobble together anything resembling something competitive. As this team mixes in Zadina, Seider, Veleno, Cholowski, Rasmussen, and whomever else we draft; these players are going to have to grow and develop the same way Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, and AA have had to, complete with the same growing pains. This is just what happens with young players.

3. Yzerman has a long ass leash, this hypothetical is unapproachable right now.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Will be fun times when Steve Yzerman as Red Wings GM questions Captain Larkin's ask for his salary.

"I did leave some salary on the table as a Captain of this team and it did lead to success. I suggest you to do same."

How'd that go for Shanahan with the players in Toronto or how is that going with Sakic and Rantanen?

 

[pz29]

For as long as there is the stupid draft lottery, no intentional tank makes sense. I have spoken about that at length before.

 

[Winger98]

How'd that go for Shanahan with the players in Toronto or how is that going with Sakic and Rantanen?

Yeah, I think teams and fans are just going to have to get used to paying their young guys more and their old guys less.

 

[Heaton]

This has most likely be said in this thread, but there hasn't been a tank and I don't see what the alternative to this process was going to be. We lost our elite talent, so now we have to regain that talent. How else do we do that without getting high draft picks? I'm all for blaming Holland if we feel like his drafting was keeping us back. Hopefully with Larkin emerging and some of our other pieces we'll get back to being competitive soon.

 

[raymond23]

We’ve been lucky and unlucky.

We’ve been lucky because we landed Larkin who is amazing and the engine of this team moving forward.

We’ve been unlucky because of the stupid f***ing lottery system.

We just need to keep getting lucky basically if we want to win cups in the future. We need star power.

 

[RedWingzz]

I think we may be terrible for a couple more years, and one of the major reasons is getting no luck whatsoever in the draft lottery. We have been bad for 3 years now, and our 1st rounders from the 3 drafts are all still trying to prove themselves at the NHL level. Ras struggled last year, but at least he has looked good in the preseason. Zadina is snake-bitten, and has lost his confidence. Seider looks great, but is still young.

I hate to say it, but we may be terrible until we get lucky and actually don't move back in a lottery. I despise this system, because we are stuck at the bottom until we get lucky. I'm still furious that the Hawks won 3 Cups not too long ago, and then are gift-wrapped a 3rd overall pick based on luck.

 

[Winger98]

Funny thing is that they did this draft lotto largely because Edmonton has been a horribly run franchise for over a decade and were picking 1st for several years clustered together and people whining that it just wasn't fair. So, they implemented a system to make the draft a crapshoot but whose odds can only be better if you tank really hard. I can see teams looking at it and figuring that if the draft is likely to screw them they'd rather move back to 4th than 8th.

 

[Pavels Dog]

1) How about you guys? I have no idea who is here now that was here substantially pre-tank, but for that group, how're things? Are you becoming used to the Wings being awful? What's teh viewing experience like for you all? Is it game watching, or occasional standings watching?

2) What's the general feeling on the timeline? IMO, we're going to be talking about how Larkin provides steady veteran influence before we're talking about anticipated playoff success, but 95 wins in 3 years has made me bitter regarding the teams prospects, literally and figuratively.

3) Speaking of timelines, what kind of one does Yzerman have before the rumblings start? I think it was smart to bring him in when they did, as this probably extends that grace period up through the time the franchise actually tries to win. I think that may have somewhat to do with whether we start seeing some actual rewards from the tanking, though. If the Wings just keep sucking and there's no infusion of good young players, that might change the algebra a little.

4) Lastly, if you could re-live the past 3-4 years and have a team going 1 or 2 rounds deep instead of being well out of everything by Christmas, how many of the prospects the team got via the tank would you relinquish?

1) I still watch most games, but as a european I no longer have the urge to stay up until 1AM (or later) to watch the games live. So I watch them the day after and sometimes that leads to lazy viewing while doing other stuff, but generally I do still love watching the games although the focus becomes more on the play of individuals than the results of the team.

2) It's hard to project rebuilding timelines. A big turnaround can happen quickly when large parts of the roster starts becoming made up out of players that are (or should be) on upwards trajectories. Like many others, I feel this coming season could either be an improvement or the last year where we are truly terrible.

3) No improvement in ~3 years and a couple of high picks looking like failures will do the trick (especially if Seider becomes a bust, which doesn't look likely though)

4) I'm one of the few around here who think riding out the playoff streak as long as possible was the right move. Many of our most promising young players and prospects were non-lottery picks too (Larkin, AA, Mantha, Cholo, Veleno, Hronek), so I think if you can make the playoffs without sacrificing tons of futures to do it, you do it.

 

[Retire91]

This isn't tanking philosophy, Holland never tanked this is the result of Holland driving a burning dumpster straight over a cliff. There is a difference between sacrificing some seasons to let your draft strategy pan out, and going for it 6-8 years after your core's cup window closed. Everytime you see the 25 straight playoff appearances record think to your self this is the cost, of watching your team so far in a hole there is no time table for when hockey is going to be even back to average in the D.

People say yeah what about Mantha and Larkin. Every team can find a Mantha and Larkin over 10 years of drafting. The problem with the wings is that during the years they "should have" been tanking they could have gotten some top 5 picks where there are players with size speed and NHL ready. Instead on the outside looking in all our picks have "upside" that may or may not pan out.

I trust in Yzerman though because he knows how to work all aspects, UFA, contracts, trades, and the draft. All Holland ever did in the last 10 years or so was draft well on rare occasions. His contracts were terrible, his trades were losers, and the free agents were generic past prime garbage just to make the playoffs and pick in the second half of the first round and then the 3rd because he almost always traded the second-round pick for more veteran garbage.

Point being this tank is not intentional, its the result of having a horrendous GM with a strategy that predictably put us where we are.

There is tanking on purpose under the direction of bad management which most people point to examples as why tanking doesn't work, and then there is restraining yourself from spending to the cap and bringing in big market UFA when you have "no cup window" Yzerman understands the difference so I am not worried, but its going to take a while this won't be like Tampa.

 

[MBH]

I long for a day when fans don't wish for the team to LOSE GAMES! Sadly this new generation thinks that is the way to do it.

Look at all the Stanley Cup winners since the cap was installed.
How many didn't have a top 5 pick?

 

[MBH]

How'd that go for Shanahan with the players in Toronto or how is that going with Sakic and Rantanen?

How quickly did Toronto return to the playoffs?
Shanahan hired April 2014.
14-15 - finished 4th worst. Draft Marner. Dermott.
15-16 - finished worst. Draft Matthews.
16-17 - In playoffs.