Skilled group of forwards leads New York Rangers spring Top 20
- Thread starter HF Article
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Steven Fogarty went from a 6.5 D to 6.5 C. I still think he's a prospect worth following, but it's hard for me to see what in his performance this season would lead you to increase his letter grade.
I also vehemently disagree with Kristo being ranked ahead of Miller, Fast and Lindberg. His performance has been extremely uneven this season. JT Miller is more than two years younger, plays a more "pro" game, is more physically mature, and has been borderline dominant in the AHL this year. I can't fathom why anyone would take Kristo ahead of him. Kristo, at this point, still strikes me as a periphery player, a PP-specialist type. I'm just not impressed. I'd take Miller, Fast and Lindberg--all younger and arguably more productive-- over Kristo every single day of the week.
Why include Scott Stajcer, even "just" at number 20? He sucks, and we both know he's done in the organization and has little professional future. A guy like Ryan Bourque has at least shown he can be a successful AHL player, and he may still have an outside shot at an NHL career. Can you say the same for Stajcer?
I also have a question. The guys not included in this top 20, but still prospects by HF standards--will they have their prospect grades updated? It seems insane to have Kyle Jean graded higher than Oscar Lindberg, for instance.
Otherwise, nice writeup, Leslie. Always good to hear your take on the kids.
I also vehemently disagree with Kristo being ranked ahead of Miller, Fast and Lindberg. His performance has been extremely uneven this season. JT Miller is more than two years younger, plays a more "pro" game, is more physically mature, and has been borderline dominant in the AHL this year. I can't fathom why anyone would take Kristo ahead of him. Kristo, at this point, still strikes me as a periphery player, a PP-specialist type. I'm just not impressed. I'd take Miller, Fast and Lindberg--all younger and arguably more productive-- over Kristo every single day of the week.
Why include Scott Stajcer, even "just" at number 20? He sucks, and we both know he's done in the organization and has little professional future. A guy like Ryan Bourque has at least shown he can be a successful AHL player, and he may still have an outside shot at an NHL career. Can you say the same for Stajcer?
I also have a question. The guys not included in this top 20, but still prospects by HF standards--will they have their prospect grades updated? It seems insane to have Kyle Jean graded higher than Oscar Lindberg, for instance.
Otherwise, nice writeup, Leslie. Always good to hear your take on the kids.
How the hell is Danny O-Zone Kristo above Miller, Fast, Lindberg, Allen, McIlrath, Duclair?
Kristo isn't even the 3rd call up option and he's a better prospect?
I get that we all have our opinions, and but this is just being different for the sake of being different.
Miller's one of the top young players in the AHL... point production and two-way play. Fast and Lindberg have been great since becoming acclimated.
Was there anyone on this board that had Kristo as no 1 on their top 20? Anyone?
Kristo isn't even the 3rd call up option and he's a better prospect?
I get that we all have our opinions, and but this is just being different for the sake of being different.
Miller's one of the top young players in the AHL... point production and two-way play. Fast and Lindberg have been great since becoming acclimated.
Was there anyone on this board that had Kristo as no 1 on their top 20? Anyone?
Kristo over Fast and Duclair is surprising.
Kristo over Miller is absolutely baffling.
Older, less productive, less physical, worse defensively . . . what am I missing?
Kristo over Miller is absolutely baffling.
Older, less productive, less physical, worse defensively . . . what am I missing?
No because they think Kristo can play in the NHL now and make an impact in the offensive zone. His problem is that he is still a defensive zone liability.
Except that Fast, Lindberg and especially Miller are all out producing him. Very rare that a player produces more at the NHL level than levels below... actually almost never. Take away Kristo's hot streak to start the season, and you see some terrible minor league numbers. Has not been nearly as good as he was the 1st dozen or so games.
I saw about half of HFD's games, including about a dozen live and have a hard time putting Kristo ahead of those three up front, but that's just what opinions are.
There are some great hockey fans who follow HFD here in Beacon and BRF, and we pretty much see the same things. Miller's the best player down there. Fast and Lindberg have been excellent since December or so. Most NHL ready D there is Allen, and not McIlrath as of now.
UAGoalieGuy
Registered User
Yeah I haven't watched HFD, I was just repeating the sentiment from earlier in the year. I assume they like his shot more like I said, but I haven't seen enough of him.
Brooklyn Rangers Fan
Change is good.
Yikes. I don't mean to pile on, but I do think you made a mistake with the Kristo ranking, Leslie. At this point I have 3 guys in HFD who are clearly better prospects in Miller, Fast and Lindberg - and 2 more who could be argued as on par in Allen and McIlrath. In addition, outside of Buchnevich in the WJC I haven't watched either Duclair or Buchnevich play personally, but I don't see how their phenomenal seasons don't put them ahead of Kristo as well given how well they performed at their respective ages. I also think that Skjei is a markedly better prospect at this point. I really don't see how Kristo can be higher than about 5, at best.
eco's bones
Registered User
Zil
Shrug
- Feb 9, 2006
- 5,559
- 43
It's hard to do when they keep flushing first round picks, not to mention the atrocity that was the Clowe trade.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
BBKers
Registered User
Prediction
Kristo will never see NHL ice as a regular
Miller, Fast, Skjei, Buchnevich and Lindberg will all become NHL regulars
Kristo will never see NHL ice as a regular
Miller, Fast, Skjei, Buchnevich and Lindberg will all become NHL regulars
Beacon
Embrace the tank
- May 28, 2007
- 13,676
- 1,454
In all my years here, I've never disagreed more with Leslie's rankings than this time.
Kristo at #1? Fogarty is somehow rising to #13 despite another underwhelming college season at an age when most prospects are already playing pro hockey? Hrivik is in the gutter? Skapski is even worse?
Kristo at #1? Fogarty is somehow rising to #13 despite another underwhelming college season at an age when most prospects are already playing pro hockey? Hrivik is in the gutter? Skapski is even worse?
The Rangers keep trading those picks. In 2011,they traded their 3rd to rent McCabe. They traded their 2nd and Caps 2nd(through Carolina for Sanguinetti)to Calgary for Erixon. Matt Nieto was taken a couple of picks after the Rangers 2nd. Who needs the American college boy? Erixon was traded in the Nash deal. Grachev was traded to the Blues for their 3rd which became Steven Fogarty.
No 1st and 2nd last June. The Rangers have a ton invested in Nash.
2nd,FLA 3rd(Wolski) and 5th in 2014 for Clowe.
No 2nd this June or No 1st if the Rangers win 2 playoff rounds. MSL will need to get going for that to happen. Love the excuses. Marty played 13 years in Tampa. He isn't used to change. Marty demanded a trade and got one. Now there is an adjustment period.
No 1st next year. The 5th was traded to VAN for Diaz.
Its going to come back and bite them on the ass. By that time,Sather will be retired and next GM will be left to pick up the pieces.
No 1st and 2nd last June. The Rangers have a ton invested in Nash.
2nd,FLA 3rd(Wolski) and 5th in 2014 for Clowe.
No 2nd this June or No 1st if the Rangers win 2 playoff rounds. MSL will need to get going for that to happen. Love the excuses. Marty played 13 years in Tampa. He isn't used to change. Marty demanded a trade and got one. Now there is an adjustment period.
No 1st next year. The 5th was traded to VAN for Diaz.
Its going to come back and bite them on the ass. By that time,Sather will be retired and next GM will be left to pick up the pieces.
irishlaxburger2
Registered User
I wouldn't look at Fogarty's stats and make too many judgments. A good portion of that has to do with Notre Dame's system.
I'm an ND fan and alum, and a huge fan of ND hockey. I also love Jeff Jackson for building our program into one of the best in college hockey. That said, his system could not be any more boring. He's all about protecting the net first, making zero mistakes, and building offense thru dump and chase. Zero creativity. Zero offensive firepower. We recruit these forwards who are drafted in the first 3 rounds and none of them seem to put up many points at ND. Mostly due to the system.
Riley Sheahan is a perfect example of a kid who didn't produce offensively to the degree ND fans expected in college, and is now shining in the NHL. He was forced to play a 2-way, grinder type game in college which completely killed his offensive abilities. Now all of a sudden he's a great playmaker for the Wings. Mario Lucia will likely be another. He was a 2nd rounder who you would expect to dominate college hockey given his roots, yet he hasn't produced very much 5 on 5 for ND. On the PP, he's stellar because he can play his natural game. The majority of his goals are on the PP. But 5 on 5, his game gets squandered by our system.
I guess the easiest way to explain it for NYR fans would be to compare McDonagh offensively under Torts and under AV. Torts' system squandered him offensively. AV's is letting his offensive ability shine through.
So yea, I wouldn't jump to many conclusions on Fogarty's game by looking at his stats at ND. Those lackluster stats could very well be more of a product of the system than his ability. At the very least, we'll know he'll be a responsible 2 way player once he leaves there.
I'm an ND fan and alum, and a huge fan of ND hockey. I also love Jeff Jackson for building our program into one of the best in college hockey. That said, his system could not be any more boring. He's all about protecting the net first, making zero mistakes, and building offense thru dump and chase. Zero creativity. Zero offensive firepower. We recruit these forwards who are drafted in the first 3 rounds and none of them seem to put up many points at ND. Mostly due to the system.
Riley Sheahan is a perfect example of a kid who didn't produce offensively to the degree ND fans expected in college, and is now shining in the NHL. He was forced to play a 2-way, grinder type game in college which completely killed his offensive abilities. Now all of a sudden he's a great playmaker for the Wings. Mario Lucia will likely be another. He was a 2nd rounder who you would expect to dominate college hockey given his roots, yet he hasn't produced very much 5 on 5 for ND. On the PP, he's stellar because he can play his natural game. The majority of his goals are on the PP. But 5 on 5, his game gets squandered by our system.
I guess the easiest way to explain it for NYR fans would be to compare McDonagh offensively under Torts and under AV. Torts' system squandered him offensively. AV's is letting his offensive ability shine through.
So yea, I wouldn't jump to many conclusions on Fogarty's game by looking at his stats at ND. Those lackluster stats could very well be more of a product of the system than his ability. At the very least, we'll know he'll be a responsible 2 way player once he leaves there.
Leslie Treff
Registered User
Okay, guys. I understand what you are saying, and I am willing to take the heat for this, but I stick by my ranking. Here is why.
I believe that Kristo has the highest potential in the system. But, the style of play in Hartford is not at all conducive to him--the two-way, hard playing style will not work for Kristo, nor, BTW, will it work for Fast (who has points, but cannot score consistently). Lindberg has always been more of a two-way guy, which is why he will be more successful in Hartford than the more one-way style players (and even Lindberg has struggled offensively). Miller is completely different type of player, the old lunch pail type, and he is performing well. Heis the type of player that this system develops the best. But it still has to be said that Kristo has the most potential.
For those who are saying any of these players are sure things in the NHL, I disagree. Even, Miller who will likely be a regular NHL player, may not achieve his potential. All of the others that you mention are still far from certain.
What we can say for certain is that basically one-way skill guys don't do well in this system. But that does not mean they aren't the best prospects. It just means that a trade may be needed to bring out the best in them. And Kristo has been particularly baffled by what he has been asked to do--and the situation has gotten worse and worse over the season. That's a reason to trade him, not to let him go to waste or give up on him. True, he may never make it, but IMHO he is right now the most offensively talented and creative player in the organization.
As far as the other "notable players" go, I have given the HF editors my grades. Hopefully, they will be posted shortly.
I believe that Kristo has the highest potential in the system. But, the style of play in Hartford is not at all conducive to him--the two-way, hard playing style will not work for Kristo, nor, BTW, will it work for Fast (who has points, but cannot score consistently). Lindberg has always been more of a two-way guy, which is why he will be more successful in Hartford than the more one-way style players (and even Lindberg has struggled offensively). Miller is completely different type of player, the old lunch pail type, and he is performing well. Heis the type of player that this system develops the best. But it still has to be said that Kristo has the most potential.
For those who are saying any of these players are sure things in the NHL, I disagree. Even, Miller who will likely be a regular NHL player, may not achieve his potential. All of the others that you mention are still far from certain.
What we can say for certain is that basically one-way skill guys don't do well in this system. But that does not mean they aren't the best prospects. It just means that a trade may be needed to bring out the best in them. And Kristo has been particularly baffled by what he has been asked to do--and the situation has gotten worse and worse over the season. That's a reason to trade him, not to let him go to waste or give up on him. True, he may never make it, but IMHO he is right now the most offensively talented and creative player in the organization.
As far as the other "notable players" go, I have given the HF editors my grades. Hopefully, they will be posted shortly.
Leslie Treff
Registered User
I did not speak of Fogarty, but I agree with this assessment of his season. It was actually a very good upgrade from his play last year. Fogarty is developing well--he has excellent vision and hands. Good speed. Now he is really learning how to play the game--and he is doing a good job learning. That's why he moved up.
Beer League Sniper
Homeless Man's Rick Nash
Agree with everything but the bolded. That Diaz trade was definitely worth the 5th we spent. But I get your point; we've traded away too many picks. I agree with you, FWIW.
eco's bones
Registered User
The Flyers did the same thing for several years--trading away all their draft picks. They made up for it by making some astute signings of CHL and college free agents. The Rangers are going to have to do the same IMO. Haggerty was a good start but they need 3 or 4 more good ones just to replenish the lack of top drafts they've been trading away.
Only one pick could possibly even be in the AHL right now and that's the one given away for Nash. That pick probably still wouldn't have made the AHL yet. I can't bemoan the loss of Erixon all that much either. I'd much rather have Nash in the NHL than Erixon + 1st in the farm/NCAA/minors.
Skjei is still in the NCAA. So is Boo. That's a 1st+ 2nd. Newb wanted out and the vets we have assigned down there are utterly inept (Powe and Asham for instance).
The picks we lost last year and in the next two years won't come into play for at least 1 more season and that impact will be spread out over the course of a few years. years the team will spend competing for a cup anyway. So hopefully the following tweo things will coincide.
We get our picks around 2015-18
Guys like Girardi, Staal, Nash, St. Louis, etc are all too old at that time
The team sucks ass.
It's not a bad thing if we have a losing season or two in a row. We likely won't be getting reinforcements in 2 or 3 years the way we've been getting prospect reinforcements for years. This may help us lose at just the right time. So we'll lose when we have picks and see what happens. Pitts, Bos, Chic all had top 5 picks in the draft on the way to where they got to. We may need that
