Size , Skills & Grace ( Mario Lemieux related )

[BenchBrawl]

I'm sorry making so much thread about Mario I kindda have an obsession about his game the last few days , I started analysing his play big time on videos and old VHS games I have of the old Pittsburgh team , and there's something missing in my mind.When Mario made a move 1 vs 1 , I don't exactly understand why the defenseman commit so quickly with so little movement by Lemieux , like for example when Jagr made a big move you understood the move , but when Lemieux shifted someone even if anybody made that exact move i'm 99% sure the defenseman wouldnt commit to one side as much.What was it , im looking for real in depth analysis by people who really know the 1 vs 1 game.And what obsess me about Lemieux is his grace , he was so fluid and big and skilled , except Beliveau , did anybody ever had the combination of the 3?

By the way I also have a controversy statement , Lemieux has the best all-around shot in the history of the NHL.Up to debate.( the fact people thought he could also pass make his shot better )

I know what im looking for is unclear but im just looking for a technical conversation and not a player comparison one because 90% of this board is about that so let's take a break and just analysis the pure technical hockey-machine that was Lemieux.How can a player like him exist?How many people played hockey , defenseman , how many reached junior? How many reached the NHL? How can a man humiliate the few that made it so easily? How can a man make the Sakic's and Yzerman's of this world look like average offesnive producer?

PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABOUT GRETZKY , I KNOW HE DID THESE THINGS 2 BUT HE WAS A DIFFERANT PLAYER AND I'LL MAKE A THREAD LATER IF NECESSARY

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[BraveCanadian]

One big factor was that Mario was huge for a player of his skill especially early in his career.

Like Messier as an example was big tough menacing player when Mario broke into the league, and although Mario didn't play a physical game, he had 3 inchs and 15-20 pounds on Messier.

That's a pretty unique situation for a skill player to be in..

A lot of times the small move by him was generally bait. And as soon as a defending player took it, or even hesitated to think about taking it, Mario would use that wingspan of his to turn him inside out. He could move the puck an amazing lateral distance under control.

His instincts were among the best ever and when you combine that with his unique physical skills, finesse, and skating ability for a guy that big.. then add on his selection of shots as you pointed out.. well.. how do you even try to stop that?

 

[Trottier]

How can a player like him exist?

Only one has.

How can a man humiliate the few that made it so easily? How can a man make the Sakic's and Yzerman's of this world look like average offesnive producer?

I love this question, because I know it's sincere...and watching Mario, I asked myself the same question, ad infinitum. It's a worn cliche, but appropriate here: a man among boys.

I unfortunately cannot provide a thorough technical answer, for Mario falls into the category of my often cited Ralph Waldo Emerson quotation: "to be great is to be misunderstood."

I will suggest, however, that specific to the on-ice scenario you describe in your post, his reach was considerable. And he possessed top end stick (and skating)...in a huge body. You just don't see that.

Sorry, I'm at a loss for words...as I was throughout his career. Pure brilliance.

The most gracefull player I'll ever see.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Space

Mario Lemieux had the ability to adjust the radius of the space he played with. His huge reach gave him a natural advantage yet unlike many tall/big players he could play the puck in close.

Often he toyed with d-men like a much older brother playing keep away with a much younger sibling.

 

[Gobo]

Mario Lemieux had the ability to adjust the radius of the space he played with. His huge reach gave him a natural advantage yet unlike many tall/big players he could play the puck in close.

Often he toyed with d-men like a much older brother playing keep away with a much younger sibling.

That.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

The guy made a peak Ray Bourque, a consensus top 5 d-man of all time, look like a 7th d-man on an AHL squad. That's how effin good he was.

 

[lextune]

Mario was the greatest one-on-one player there has ever been.

Couple that with him being the second or third greatest playmaker in NHL history and it is easy to see how he confounded defensemen.

Often his greatest "highlights" did not even end up as goals or assists. Especially in his early years, when he seemed almost to be experimenting. I can't tell you how many times I saw him make jaw-dropping plays only to have Doug Shedden or some other chump miss a virtually empty net.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I can't tell you how many times I saw him make jaw-dropping plays only to have Doug Shedden or some other chump miss a virtually empty net.

Nah, it's a well known "fact" here on the history boards that all time greats would produce what they produced no matter who they played with.

 

[redbull]

I'm sorry making so much thread about Mario I kindda have an obsession about his game the last few days , I started analysing his play big time on videos and old VHS games I have of the old Pittsburgh team , and there's something missing in my mind.When Mario made a move 1 vs 1 , I don't exactly understand why the defenseman commit so quickly with so little movement by Lemieux , like for example when Jagr made a big move you understood the move , but when Lemieux shifted someone even if anybody made that exact move i'm 99% sure the defenseman wouldnt commit to one side as much.What was it , im looking for real in depth analysis by people who really know the 1 vs 1 game.And what obsess me about Lemieux is his grace , he was so fluid and big and skilled , except Beliveau , did anybody ever had the combination of the 3?

By the way I also have a controversy statement , Lemieux has the best all-around shot in the history of the NHL.Up to debate.( the fact people thought he could also pass make his shot better )

I know what im looking for is unclear but im just looking for a technical conversation and not a player comparison one because 90% of this board is about that so let's take a break and just analysis the pure technical hockey-machine that was Lemieux.How can a player like him exist?How many people played hockey , defenseman , how many reached junior? How many reached the NHL? How can a man humiliate the few that made it so easily? How can a man make the Sakic's and Yzerman's of this world look like average offesnive producer?

PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABOUT GRETZKY , I KNOW HE DID THESE THINGS 2 BUT HE WAS A DIFFERANT PLAYER AND I'LL MAKE A THREAD LATER IF NECESSARY

good thread...interesting topic.

on his 1on1 play. He was the best I've ever seen by far and here's why.

Bure could beat you with pure speed and a head fake
Lafleur was similar
Mogilny had incredible stickhandling and explosive acceleration
Jarg had size and strength but seemed to be deliberate with his moves. He seemed to put his head down and try to beat players, it was somewhat obvious that he was going to it and usually got away with it.
Gilbert Perreault was probably next to Jagr/Lemieux in terms of 1on1 play, very elusive body movement and smooth skater and great stickhandler.
NOTE: I did not see Orr in his prime so will not comment. But he looked like he could beat anyone if he chose to.

Why was Mario different? His size and reach, yes, but I believe it was related to his elusive speed and complete unpredictability with the puck. Because he was so big, his movements look effortless, somewhat "lazy" on the ice. It often looked like he was disinterested and was playing at half-speed/half-effort. He got a lot of flack for that especially before the Pens started making the playoffs and winning a series.

1on1 he was incredible but I believe his main asset, over anyone else, was how he was able to keep players (and goalies, more on this later) off balance. THe move on Bourque gets a lot of youtube cred, but it's symbolic of how unpredictable Mario was with the puck.

His shot? I never thought he had a great shot. Not overly hard, he rarely zipped an Ovechkin/Hull-like shot through a goalie. He hardly had a curve on his stick and didn't even take many "hard" shots. He seemed to score a hundred goals from the side of the boards with a low shot catching goalies off guard. He scored a lot of goals with a simple flick of the wrist, perfectly times shot through a screen, after a little stick move or minimal head-fake. You're completely right about his subtle movements. No severe head-fakes and no accelerating strides racing around a defender. He just seemed to move in a direction that seemed to catch defenders flatfooted.

You can talk all you want about speed and stickhandling and be wowed and amazed by Linus Omark in the shootout or Nikita Filatov on the rush. Say what you will about how the game has changed and how much faster it is, whatever. I saw Mario take 3-4 years off and return to the ice, seemingly in slow motion, and dominate the play almost immediately. It would have been a real treat to watch him play at full health for a longer time.

Mario's combination of offensive IQ and size/grace was unparalleled - I seriously doubt a player like this will come along again. If he does, I hope I'm around to see it.

 

[overg]

I think a big reason why Mario could get defensemen to bite so badly was because he had the skill to make a play from nearly any angle. Defensemen *had* to bite, because if they didn't Mario would simply make the play from that angle. He just also had the patience to make a second move if they went for the first.

To put it another way, Mario's skillset from nearly any angle he could place the puck gave him options that almost no other players in the history of the game have had. He could make a play with the puck in his feet, he could make a play with his stick fully extended to either his left or his right, and he could make a play pretty much anywhere in between those extremes. And he had the talent to out-wait defensemen and change up that angle no matter which way they tried to defend him.

 

[edog37]

Lemieux had the rarest of talents in that he was able to slow the game down 1 on 1. Defensemen were challenged by his sheer size & wingspan. He could stickhandle in their skates and bulldoze through them. There were no Prongers & Charas back in those days, so his physical gifts created many mismatches.

 

[Trottier]

The guy made a peak Ray Bourque, a consensus top 5 d-man of all time, look like a 7th d-man on an AHL squad. That's how effin good he was.

Will never forget that play ^^^ as long as I live. For me at least, #66 reached icon status the springs of 1991 & 92. And that play happening as it did in the postseason, made it that much more memorable.

Brian Heyward, Ducks color guy/homer, tells the story of being in net, in relief, for the expansion Sharks, circa 1991-92. Pens are running up the score bigtime, hitting double digits. Mario is wracking up the points. Couple minutes left, Hayward makes a sprawling save, puck comes out to a WIDE OPEN Mario on the side of the net, with Heyward down and out and the net WIDE OPEN.

Mario slides the puck into Heyward. Whistle is blown.

Mario winks at Heyward.

 

[ozzie]

His wing span from left to right was unreal. Not only was it large, it was extremely quick. Defenders had to be aware of this at all times.

Take a look at Mario's head and see what its doing aswell. Shifting alittle to the left or right was enough for defenders to commit.

I also agree he was the best one on one player, I have ever seen.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

His physical abilities were second to none, and his mental game was second only to Gretzky. My favourite player of all time, and I'm almost certain he'd be the best player in the world today if he was young and healthy.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

His shot? I never thought he had a great shot. Not overly hard, he rarely zipped an Ovechkin/Hull-like shot through a goalie. He hardly had a curve on his stick and didn't even take many "hard" shots. He seemed to score a hundred goals from the side of the boards with a low shot catching goalies off guard. He scored a lot of goals with a simple flick of the wrist, perfectly times shot through a screen, after a little stick move or minimal head-fake. You're completely right about his subtle movements. No severe head-fakes and no accelerating strides racing around a defender. He just seemed to move in a direction that seemed to catch defenders flatfooted.

How can you say Mario never blasted pucks past goaltenders like Hull/Ovechkin. I absolutely disagree, he had one of the best slap shots & one-timer the game has ever seen. Mario was one of the most dangerous power play specialists of all-time either setting up plays or using his shot to score.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Brian Heyward, Ducks color guy/homer, tells the story of being in net, in relief, for the expansion Sharks, circa 1991-92. Pens are running up the score bigtime, hitting double digits. Mario is wracking up the points. Couple minutes left, Hayward makes a sprawling save, puck comes out to a WIDE OPEN Mario on the side of the net, with Heyward down and out and the net WIDE OPEN.

Mario slides the puck into Heyward. Whistle is blown.

Mario winks at Heyward.

Haha, that's fantastic.

 

[charliolemieux]

Will never forget that play ^^^ as long as I live. For me at least, #66 reached icon status the springs of 1991 & 92. And that play happening as it did in the postseason, made it that much more memorable.

Brian Heyward, Ducks color guy/homer, tells the story of being in net, in relief, for the expansion Sharks, circa 1991-92. Pens are running up the score bigtime, hitting double digits. Mario is wracking up the points. Couple minutes left, Hayward makes a sprawling save, puck comes out to a WIDE OPEN Mario on the side of the net, with Heyward down and out and the net WIDE OPEN.

Mario slides the puck into Heyward. Whistle is blown.

Mario winks at Heyward.

Seriously?!?

My respect for him just went up another notch. Glad it wasn't the 88-89 season and it cost him the 200pt mark.


As for the OP, and I think you mentioned it earlier Trottier, was that he had such a combination of skill size and reach he could just do things others couldn't.

Since Mario left I have only seen one player on one occassion do something similar. IT was Joe Thornton who went through all 5 opposing players before scoring. Using his size and reach he moved the puck in a way that the defenders basically froze. Mario would do that every game.

The 1-on-1 that is my favorite is the above mentioned Mario v. Ray Bourque. I doubt poor Ray has found that jockstrap yet.

 

[Trottier]

Seriously?!?

My respect for him just went up another notch. Glad it wasn't the 88-89 season and it cost him the 200pt mark.

Hell, I'm not creative enough to make that up! Yeah, I love that story.

The 1-on1 that is my favorite is Mario v. Ray Bourque. I doubt poor Ray has found that jockstrap yet.

Still trying to find it on Youtube....

 

[lextune]

How can you say Mario never blasted pucks past goaltenders like Hull/Ovechkin. I absolutely disagree, he had one of the best slap shots & one-timer the game has ever seen. Mario was one of the most dangerous power play specialists of all-time either setting up plays or using his shot to score.

Without question.

He excelled in every type of shot. Wrist, snap, half-slap, one-timer, slapshot.
All of them were hard and ridiculously accurate.

Looking back I feel lucky to have seen his entire career, but boy did I hate him at the time, lol.....

....anyway, for those who didn't get to see him in his day seek out the DVD; "Mario Lemieux - The Best Ever", it must have highlights of at least 100 goals or more, dozens of which are Mario in the left wing circle on the powerplay blasting one one-timer after another.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Yeah and it wasn't just the plays he made happen with the puck either.
Who can forget him faking Richter out in the Olympics by pretending to shoot the puck on an incoming pass that he let go to someone else that then had a wide open net.

A lot of what Mario did one on one was very subtle like slowing down without looking like he was slowing down.
The guy he was facing would have to slow down more visibly, commit and then Mario would make a move, take a step and the opposing player would be looking for his jock strap heh.

He just made it look soooo ridiculously easy.
Man amongst boys is about as accurate as you can get.