Salary Cap: Signing Jacob Trouba

[Mortimer Snerd]

You can try and pay less
Just be reasonable about it

Sounds like were dealing with a player who doesn't want to be reasonable
Sounds like a real team player

If you are expecting players to take a discount to play in Winnipeg (or most other locations) you are going to be disappointed. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[papasan]

Will a long term contract for Trouba make this Buff's last season for the Jets?

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm ready for Trouba to be traded. In fact I expect it just not until he signs long term. Or at least goes through arbitration twice.

That's what I'm afraid of. After that he is only worth rental prices.

 

[Aavco Cup]

One of the problems with this is were all assuming he signs for 8 years
And I'm thinking 6 years

You're not getting Trouba to sign for 8 years unless you over pay him
8 million might do it, but is those extra 2 years really the difference maker? I'd rather just make a similar deal with Trouba
6.5 for 6
8 years is a long time and there's no need to eat up 8 mil of salary cap for 6 of those years to get a "bargain" for 2 extra years

Term matters. And you can't discuss a contract with Trouba without factoring in term.

Obviously the only way he get's an AAV approaching $7.5-$8M on his next contract is on an 8 year deal.

The Jets will want at least 6 years and it would have to be that long to get the AAV where the Trouba camp would like it to be. IIRC these were rumoured a few weeks ago.

6 x $6.5M ($39M)
7 x $7M ($49M)
8 x $7.5M ($60M)

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I still don't think Trouba signs an 8 year deal. If he signs long term with the Jets I expect a 5 year deal in around $7 M AAV. Keeps him in his 20's for an absolute monster UFA deal to take him into his late 30's. I think the Jets could roll with that. I will add Trouba will have to prove worth it, which he hasn't yet.

I think 6 is a distinct possibility. 8 is the target but the Jets may have to accept 6. I guess 5 is possible but just as Trouba may resist 8, I think Jets resist <6. I'm pretty sure it will be a difficult negotiation.

 

[Aavco Cup]

That's what I'm afraid of. After that he is only worth rental prices.

I expect it only once and I don't expect the hearing and award to actually happen.

If he's willing to give up financial security and use the CBA to obtain his freedom then I will commend him for it.

He could always play the Weber card and choose not to file for arbitration and play the holdout game again demanding a trade.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I just don't agree with the status quo

I don't agree that if scheifele is being paid 6 that Trouba deserves 8 because that's what the market is giving out

I'll leave it at that

Earlier you posted that you understand the math but you are choosing to ignore it. If Trouba signs for 6x7.1666 his 8 years will just equal Scheifele's 8 years.

There is also a significant advantage to getting the money sooner that we are just ignoring here. It is harder to pin down but is very real. So Scheifele is actually ahead if they end up with the same dollar amount after 8 years.

 

[surixon]

I just don't see the Jets using Weber or Subban as comparables. Weber's $110M contract is from a bygone era and Subban was a Norris trophy winner. Trouba is much more in the in the Lindholm/Ristolainen category. And Trouba has little to no leverage, unless the Jets choose to accede to his demands, a lesson he learned less than a year ago.
Scheifele's contract is not a CAP, but a benchmark. If an 80 point #1 centre, future captain, marquee player and role model can accept a 6.1M AAV, including 4 years of UFA, then others need to consider accepting a team friendly contract in order to keep the star-studded roster intact. Bryan Little gets it and I have a feeling Ehlers will, as well. That, in turn, may influence Laine to take ~$9M X 8 (if he continues to progress) instead of 10. It's all inter-connected, but Scheifele is the benchmark. I'm just not sure whether Trouba's advisors will buy into that, as they have no apparent allegiance to Wpg or the Jets.

Scheifele signed the deal prior to him being that 80 point elite number 1 C which is the major distinction. If he was up for his extension this summer we are talking well north of 7 million a year. The Jets got lucky on the timing and Scheifele was more than happy and willing to commit really long term to the franchise.

Trouba will be more proven when he's eligible to sign his next deal and have arb rights. Which pushes him into a scenario similar to Subban and O'Rielly where he is going to get a higher AAV the his peers who signed out of their entry level deals. Watch Johansen's deal this summer, he will make substantially more than Scheifele, Barkov, McKinnon, Monahan etc despite not being a better player.

It's why Subban makes more than Doughty and Karlson despite not being better.

 

[Peggy]

If you are expecting players to take a discount to play in Winnipeg (or most other locations) you are going to be disappointed. It just doesn't work that way.

A "discount" in my eyes is not asking for full price 8 million is a lot of money and only the best get paid that much
Trouba ain't no Crosby or karlsson
Even their contracts aren't full price

They're 10 million dollar players
And they're getting paid 8

No on is saying everyone's gonna sign 6 million dollar contracts here

I'm just saying Trouba is a 6.5 for 6 player right now and you're gonna give him 7.5 instead which is full price(aka over pay)

Earlier you posted that you understand the math but you are choosing to ignore it. If Trouba signs for 6x7.1666 his 8 years will just equal Scheifele's 8 years.

There is also a significant advantage to getting the money sooner that we are just ignoring here. It is harder to pin down but is very real. So Scheifele is actually ahead if they end up with the same dollar amount after 8 years.

That math doesn't compute

How does 6 million in 6 years equal 7million for 6 years?

7 × 6 = 42

6×6 = 36

Term matters. And you can't discuss a contract with Trouba without factoring in term.

Obviously the only way he get's an AAV approaching $7.5-$8M on his next contract is on an 8 year deal.

The Jets will want at least 6 years and it would have to be that long to get the AAV where the Trouba camp would like it to be. IIRC these were rumoured a few weeks ago.

6 x $6.5M ($39M)
7 x $7M ($49M)
8 x $7.5M ($60M)

Sure, but my argument is if you can't get him less then for 8 for 8 then don't make that deal lol

6.5 for 6 and nothing more and nothing less

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Not true with NHL players. For the average Canadian? yes. For the richest 2% of the population, the taxes are far higher and more significant in Canada. It's definitely a factor in deciding to play in Canada.

The relative value of the $C and differences in taxation are 2 different issues. The tax situation varies more widely in the US than it does in Canada. I expect they are lower in pretty much all US locations but not by near as much in some as in others.

 

[ffh]

Sorry if jones who is a better player gets 5.4 million from years 6 thu 9 of his career trouba shouldn't get more. 6 year deal should look like this
5.5 x 4
6.5 x 2
5.8 aav x6 round that up to 6x6
Doesn't matter about money lost on bridge contract jets dont owe him anything. Should have played better.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Sure, but my argument is if you can't get him less then for 8 for 8 then don't make that deal lol

Well if you don't then it might end up being 1 x $5M by arbitration.

 

[Peggy]

Well if you don't then it might end up being 1 x $5M by arbitration.

How does that work?

If you're saying it's because Trouba will only agree to a big money contract then trade him
Don't wanna deal with a guy who can't work with his team and only thinks about himself

 

[Aavco Cup]

How does that work?

You mean arbitration? This is a start.

http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2013/7/12/4514168/cba-arbitration-boolsheet

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I don't agree that we should make sure that a diva should be given exactly what asked
Sets a bad example and holding off on signing Trouba last year was for nothing then

Laine will be the highest paid player on the team

Now Trouba is a diva? OK.

It isn't about giving him exactly what he asked. If we are doing that then he is asking for 14 mil, or whatever the league max is. So is every other player on the team. We are talking about giving him the going rate. We are talking about giving him similar money to what Scheifele got but there are more factors than just the AAV.

Yes, Laine will be the highest paid Jet. Later. Trouba will get there first. If not then we will have no choice but to lose him.

If all of our current top young players reach the ceilings we are projecting for them we will have to trade at least one of them to stay within the cap. That doesn't need to happen for a few years though.

 

[Aavco Cup]

How does that work?

If you're saying it's because Trouba will only agree to a big money contract then trade him
Don't wanna deal with a guy who can't work with his team and only thinks about himself

He would have more trade value on a long term deal with the arbitration process eliminated. It would also let Chevy deal with all 30 teams and give him control over the process.

 

[DRW204]

I am fully anticipating Trouba wanting to leave, and probably going to leave. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. The guy’s reason for holding out was BS, and his exit interview did not instill any confidence in him wanting to be here. It was rumored he turned down 7 million prior to him cementing himself as a #1 Dman, which it is plausible since he could have been betting on himself to improve his play and make more than 7 mill per year, however, I think this with the mix of his previous actions are giving indications that he doesn’t want to be here. Trouba is paramount to the success of this defense. Although the pieces look good, it is such a volatile group. Buff’s play was up and down this year and some of the downs were extremely concerning. Then you have Tyler Myers who I think you have to protect to insure yourself against a Trouba departure. But 3 major lower body surgeries (knee, hip, groin?) within 13-14 month time frame and the fact he hasn’t played a full season since his first is really concerning as well. Then, JoMo is the only LD that you have 0 question marks about, and he is just coming off his 1st year.

Trouba/his camp don’t care what Scheifle got. If #55’s agent couldn’t negotiate a more lucrative deal for his player that is not KO’s problem/concern. These guys will not bend over and take a friendly deal in the spirit of cooperativeness. Every time you hear about this guy he seems like a stubborn player at the negotiation table. There is no way they accept a deal in-line with #55’s IMO. Then you also add in the fact that there are more UFA years at stake as well, took a bridge deal for a bigger payday later on..…it will get expensive.

 

[DRW204]

Sorry if jones who is a better player gets 5.4 million from years 6 thu 9 of his career trouba shouldn't get more. 6 year deal should look like this
5.5 x 4
6.5 x 2
5.8 aav x6 round that up to 6x6
Doesn't matter about money lost on bridge contract jets dont owe him anything. Should have played better.

depends on how many years of UFA years you buy with Trouba. He will easily get north of 6 mill on the open market

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

A "discount" in my eyes is not asking for full price 8 million is a lot of money and only the best get paid that much
Trouba ain't no Crosby or karlsson
Even their contracts aren't full price

They're 10 million dollar players
And they're getting paid 8

No on is saying everyone's gonna sign 6 million dollar contracts here

I'm just saying Trouba is a 6.5 for 6 player right now and you're gonna give him 7.5 instead which is full price(aka over pay)




That math doesn't compute

How does 6 million in 6 years equal 7million for 6 years?

7 × 6 = 42

6×6 = 36



Sure, but my argument is if you can't get him less then for 8 for 8 then don't make that deal lol

6.5 for 6 and nothing more and nothing less

You are comparing apples to oranges again. Contracts signed years ago don't compare directly to contract signed today. Contracts signed with more or fewer RFA years are different. These are facts of life. They are not things that you can choose to ignore.

You can't sat that Trouba is a 5 mil player, or a 6 mil player, or a 7 mil player, or any other number without factoring in term and RFA/UFA years.

I'll use the Scheifele example again. It works well because their ELC's expired at the same time.
Scheifele - 8 years x 6.125 mil = 49 mil over 8 years.
Trouba - 2x3 = 6mil plus 6x7.16666, 43 mil = 49 mil over the same 8 years.
So Scheif gets cheques totalling 6.125 every year and Trouba gets cheques totalling 7.1666 every year and they are being paid at exactly the same rate over the same 8 year period.

You don't get to simply pull a number out of the air and say "nothing more and nothing less". You also can't simply look at one player's AAV and compare it directly to another's. All the circumstances of when the contract was signed and at what point in the players career it was signed have to be taken into account. The strength of the bargaining positions of the 2 parties is what determines the result of the negotiation in the end.

Players have agents, teams have accountants and capologists who work all these things out in minute detail. The agents see to it that their clients get paid as much as possible. The GM's see to it that they get paid as little as possible. In the end the players get market value from one team or they go to another.

If you want to build a winning team you have to pay your top players what they would get if they went elsewhere.

 

[Peggy]

Now Trouba is a diva? OK.

It isn't about giving him exactly what he asked. If we are doing that then he is asking for 14 mil, or whatever the league max is. So is every other player on the team. We are talking about giving him the going rate. We are talking about giving him similar money to what Scheifele got but there are more factors than just the AAV.

Yes, Laine will be the highest paid Jet. Later. Trouba will get there first. If not then we will have no choice but to lose him.

If all of our current top young players reach the ceilings we are projecting for them we will have to trade at least one of them to stay within the cap. That doesn't need to happen for a few years though.

Give me 8 for 8 or I leave is diva like
And I'm only calling him that based off how the hf boards are interpreting it
It's like it's Trouba way or the highway and I don't agree with that mentality
I agree with coming to a middle ground and 8 for 8 isn't that
Or maybe it is, but I don't think so
Especially if he's peaked

He would have more trade value on a long term deal with the arbitration process eliminated. It would also let Chevy deal with all 30 teams and give him control over the process.

Why wouldn't a 6 year deal the same?

 

[Aavco Cup]

Why wouldn't a 6 year deal the same?

You were advocating to trade him now if he won't sign on your terms.

A 6+ deal is considered long term.

 

[Peggy]

You are comparing apples to oranges again. Contracts signed years ago don't compare directly to contract signed today. Contracts signed with more or fewer RFA years are different. These are facts of life. They are not things that you can choose to ignore.

You can't sat that Trouba is a 5 mil player, or a 6 mil player, or a 7 mil player, or any other number without factoring in term and RFA/UFA years.

I'll use the Scheifele example again. It works well because their ELC's expired at the same time.
Scheifele - 8 years x 6.125 mil = 49 mil over 8 years.
Trouba - 2x3 = 6mil plus 6x7.16666, 43 mil = 49 mil over the same 8 years.
So Scheif gets cheques totalling 6.125 every year and Trouba gets cheques totalling 7.1666 every year and they are being paid at exactly the same rate over the same 8 year period.

You don't get to simply pull a number out of the air and say "nothing more and nothing less". You also can't simply look at one player's AAV and compare it directly to another's. All the circumstances of when the contract was signed and at what point in the players career it was signed have to be taken into account. The strength of the bargaining positions of the 2 parties is what determines the result of the negotiation in the end.

Players have agents, teams have accountants and capologists who work all these things out in minute detail. The agents see to it that their clients get paid as much as possible. The GM's see to it that they get paid as little as possible. In the end the players get market value from one team or they go to another.

If you want to build a winning team you have to pay your top players what they would get if they went elsewhere.

I'll make it short

I'm not comparing apples to oranges

Ovechkin has a 10 mil contract
Crosby is what 7 or 8?
Apple's to oranges?
One was willing to take less for the better of the team and the other wanted the superstardom and the money that goes with it

 

[Whileee]

NHL math:

(2x3)+(8x7.5) = 66

(8x6.125)+(2x8.5) = 66

Trouba signing an 8-year $7.5M contract extension would mean the equivalent total salary over a 10 year period as Scheifele completing his contract and then making $8.5M for the next two years (as a UFA). That's probably a bit low for Scheifele as a UFA.

 

[Maukkis]

Some of these arguments are mindblowing. First off, signing Trouba after his bridge deals is not comparable to Jones, Lindholm, Risto or Rielly doing so after their ELCs. The best comparable of his would be Subban: a defenseman who took a bridge deal and, should we say, won that gamble. Trouba is doing just that, but on a much smaller scale. Seven per year is not outlandish in the slightest. That being said, that's about as far as I would go.

 

[DRW204]

Crosby had a 5 year 43 million dollar contract prior. That + his 12 year 104 million trump ovies 13 year 124 million (in TCV, not AAV)