Oh good to know his poor start was due to playing in the KHL (lol), not that his numbers improved in the second half of the season due to the Caps schedule being back loaded with the terrible Southeast division
Sidney Crosby would have just as many art ross trophies as mcdavid if not for injuries?
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Malkin also played with Kunitz and Neal that whole year. And still failed to match Crosby's PPG. If Crosby had been healthy Malkin's linemates would have been distributed between them
Video Nasty
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4 is fair to assume. For this exercise, 2010-2011 and 2012-2013 are completely reasonable to pencil in as wins.
Nothing else is a guarantee, though I see the usual calls for 5, 6, 7, and somehow even 8 sprinkled throughout the thread so far.
If you are willing to go that crazy, you have to do it for every all-time great ever—you can’t do it only one way.
The harsh truth is that we can do the same for McDavid who would be up to 8 in 10 seasons, if we are willing to be as generous as people want to be with Crosby—though like Gretzky, there’s really no need to, as his case is already so strong, so it all feels like pointless overkill. McDavid’s case doesn’t rely on what ifs like Crosby, but here we go when looking at the seasons he didn’t win the scoring race.
2018-2019: Lost clean to Kucherov, though it should be noted that McDavid played 4 fewer games and had 12 less points for a team that scored nearly a hundred fewer goals. McDavid factored in on half his team’s production, compared to Kucherov’s 39%. On the other hand, Kucherov has proven himself to be an all-timer himself, as we currently witness him about to win his third Art Ross. There’s little shame there.
2019-2020: The infamous knee injury sustained in the final game of the prior season. Watch the doc and draw your own conclusions. Also missed 7 games due to another knee injury. 2nd in points and PPG, before COVID wiped out the final 11 games of the season.
2023-2024: Rushed back early from injury because Oilers were spiraling. Clearly off all year. Still overcame a 22 point deficit in the scoring race in just 28 calendar and briefly took the scoring lead at 125 points. Shortly after, another injury, and shut down to heal as much as possible for playoffs. Still 2nd in PPG.
2024-2025: Another early injury, clearly issues throughout. Another injury and bout of missed time. Still 2nd in PPG.
As we can see, we can play the game for him too, and he could be up to 8 already. Either way, he’s still going, and I suspect he’ll still win more Art Rosses than the most absurd what if Crosby fantasies could hope for.
Nothing else is a guarantee, though I see the usual calls for 5, 6, 7, and somehow even 8 sprinkled throughout the thread so far.
If you are willing to go that crazy, you have to do it for every all-time great ever—you can’t do it only one way.
The harsh truth is that we can do the same for McDavid who would be up to 8 in 10 seasons, if we are willing to be as generous as people want to be with Crosby—though like Gretzky, there’s really no need to, as his case is already so strong, so it all feels like pointless overkill. McDavid’s case doesn’t rely on what ifs like Crosby, but here we go when looking at the seasons he didn’t win the scoring race.
2018-2019: Lost clean to Kucherov, though it should be noted that McDavid played 4 fewer games and had 12 less points for a team that scored nearly a hundred fewer goals. McDavid factored in on half his team’s production, compared to Kucherov’s 39%. On the other hand, Kucherov has proven himself to be an all-timer himself, as we currently witness him about to win his third Art Ross. There’s little shame there.
2019-2020: The infamous knee injury sustained in the final game of the prior season. Watch the doc and draw your own conclusions. Also missed 7 games due to another knee injury. 2nd in points and PPG, before COVID wiped out the final 11 games of the season.
2023-2024: Rushed back early from injury because Oilers were spiraling. Clearly off all year. Still overcame a 22 point deficit in the scoring race in just 28 calendar and briefly took the scoring lead at 125 points. Shortly after, another injury, and shut down to heal as much as possible for playoffs. Still 2nd in PPG.
2024-2025: Another early injury, clearly issues throughout. Another injury and bout of missed time. Still 2nd in PPG.
As we can see, we can play the game for him too, and he could be up to 8 already. Either way, he’s still going, and I suspect he’ll still win more Art Rosses than the most absurd what if Crosby fantasies could hope for.
Yes, he was at a 1.45 PPG before getting a viral illness. Still had the highest PPG that season.
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Another injury hypothetical, an IF exercise. People would do well to understand that injuries and dealing with them are an unfortunate part of the game. Then we wouldn’t have threads like this.
A better way to phrase it is if Crosby plays just 50 more games, less than 4% of his total career games, at key times, he wins 3 more Rosses and 2 more Harts/Lindsays; a doubling of his regular season trophy case.
He had almost comical bad luck and bad timing with his injuries.
He had almost comical bad luck and bad timing with his injuries.
hamzarocks
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Ovechkin does not win the ross/hart/lidday in 2013. He was far far behind Crosby that year
He gets 3 rosses/harts/lindsays + 10 rockets+calder + smythe in 100% career healthy scenerio for 21 awards
Crosby gets
07 --> ross/hart/lindsay
11 --> ross/hart/lindsay/rocket
12 --> ross/hart/lindsay
13 --> ross/hart/lindsay
14 -->ross/hart/lindsay
2015 -->ross
2017 --> rocket
He ends with 6 rosses, 5 harts, 5 lindsays, 2 rockets, and 2 smythes
Both end with 21 awards with OVs being driven by rockets vs Crosbys by ross/hart/lindsays
RevengeOfTheDrai
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Crosby has played about 87% of the games he could possibly play after getting drafted. I wouldn’t say that’s bad luck at all, actually pretty lucky considering he grinds for the puck near the net. Yeah a lot of those were in his prime, but he wasn’t even projected to play until 30 back in 2012. He’s been very fortunate with injuries after 2013. McDavid missing 14 games this season is comparable to Crosby missing games in 2013 for example, no one calls McDavid unlucky right now. Malkin is the real unlucky one.
A deflected puck to the jaw cost him an Art Ross in a strike shortened season, a viral illness cost him an Art Ross.
He also argubly wins a Ross in 09/10 if not for a cup hangover thru the first 1/4 of the season.
hamzarocks
Registered User
Crosby fault for losing 2015 despite playing 77 games, then sucking huge ass in the first 25 games of the 2016 season and then choking again the 2017 season.
His 2006-2014 self was best player in the league due to OV becoming a one trick pony after 2010.
His 2015-2017 self choked 2 rosses/harts/lindsays at minimum
He had very weak competition those 3 years and didnt end up winning when he should have.
Even 2018 crosby should have had a much better year and won all the awards. Mcdavid only had 108, crosby got out produced by Kessel and Malkin. He should have ended with 115 pts this season considering how good the 2nd and 3rd best players on the team produced
2018 was the worst year of his career, he was a fringe top 10 player at best and it hurts his legacy not doing anything of note regular season awards wise from 2015-2018 besides 1 rocket.
Mcdavid plays better competition and has been 2nd in ppg over his 27 and 28 year seasons vs Mack/Drai/Kuch who are all better than Malkin/OV/Stamkos were in the 2010s besides maybe Malkins 2012 season
Lets see how his next two years go. His 29 and 30 year season will be matched vs 2017 and 2018 for Crosbt
It was certainly an opportunity there for the taking, but that was a crazy unlucky year for him 5v5. The team shot 6.1% with him on the ice, and only had 48 GF despite 67 xGF.
But you’re right, as much as he lost out on the 2011-2013 period, he had a prime opportunity to clean up from 2015-2018 and just didn’t.
PamBallam
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I never really thought about how weak 2015-2018 was. Sid is my dude, but losing a Ross to Jamie freaking Benn is kinda inexcusable lol
TheGuiminator
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No he wouldn't. cause Crosby is simply not a superior offensive player than McDavid.
There are two slam dunk wins for Crosby during his career : 2010-11 and 2012-13, that's it. Let’s say he won on both occasions, that would bring his total to 4 Art Ross trophies, still one less than McDavid. Seasons like 2007-08 and 2011-12 have too many variables and grey areas to give him the benefit of the doubt. But the main issue is that in most seasons where he was relatively healthy, he still couldn’t get the job done :
2008-09: He played 77 games but clearly took a step back to Malkin and Ovechkin.
2009-10: His offensive production was underwhelming for most of the season, until April, when he exploded with 15 points in his last 5 games. That late push boosted him to 109 points as he finished 2nd in the league on the last day of the season, but was far behind all year long.
2014-15: One of the weakest offensive seasons of all-time. That year should’ve been a copy/paste of his 2013-14 performance, but he completely dropped the ball and somehow lost the Art Ross to Jamie Benn, despite having a strong season start (33 points in his first 22 games).
2015-16: He picked up right where he left off the year before with by far the worst start of his career with 19 points in his first 30 games. He got better after the coaching change, but still got torn a new asshole by Patrick Kane, who finished 19 points ahead.
2016-17: Crosby was about to catch up McDavid in the scoring race despite missing the first month of the season. At one point, they were neck and neck at the 80 point mark. But in the last 10-12 games, McDavid left Crosby in the dust, finishing with 100 points to Crosby’s 89.
That’s why it’s hard for me to give Crosby more than two extra Art Rosses. Outside of that 2011–13 stretch, he never really showed a clear cut separation from his peers.
There are two slam dunk wins for Crosby during his career : 2010-11 and 2012-13, that's it. Let’s say he won on both occasions, that would bring his total to 4 Art Ross trophies, still one less than McDavid. Seasons like 2007-08 and 2011-12 have too many variables and grey areas to give him the benefit of the doubt. But the main issue is that in most seasons where he was relatively healthy, he still couldn’t get the job done :
2008-09: He played 77 games but clearly took a step back to Malkin and Ovechkin.
2009-10: His offensive production was underwhelming for most of the season, until April, when he exploded with 15 points in his last 5 games. That late push boosted him to 109 points as he finished 2nd in the league on the last day of the season, but was far behind all year long.
2014-15: One of the weakest offensive seasons of all-time. That year should’ve been a copy/paste of his 2013-14 performance, but he completely dropped the ball and somehow lost the Art Ross to Jamie Benn, despite having a strong season start (33 points in his first 22 games).
2015-16: He picked up right where he left off the year before with by far the worst start of his career with 19 points in his first 30 games. He got better after the coaching change, but still got torn a new asshole by Patrick Kane, who finished 19 points ahead.
2016-17: Crosby was about to catch up McDavid in the scoring race despite missing the first month of the season. At one point, they were neck and neck at the 80 point mark. But in the last 10-12 games, McDavid left Crosby in the dust, finishing with 100 points to Crosby’s 89.
That’s why it’s hard for me to give Crosby more than two extra Art Rosses. Outside of that 2011–13 stretch, he never really showed a clear cut separation from his peers.
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RevengeOfTheDrai
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Ovechkin had his own wrist injury in 2010 that hampered his ability to carry the puck. I don’t think it ever healed, and it’s part of the reason he changed his style of play.
The other thing to now is the fractured have wouldn't have even cost him the Art Ross since he had such a massive lead except that the season was only 48 games, and the season was condensed at that so he actually missed more games than a player normally would for being out 3 or 4 weeks
Luigi Lemieux
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That period of low productivity in 14-15 and 15-16 was because of Mike Johnston and his awful defensive system. Despite it being an underwhelming season, he still lead the league in points per game in 14-15. And in 15-16 he didn't just get better after the coaching change, he lead the league in scoring from that point on.
You're right. We can. Except this is a thread about Crosby.
Why do people feel the need to turn it into a thread about McDavid or Ovechkin?
They can have their own speculation thread if people are that desperate to post the 'what ifs.'
Video Nasty
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Golden_Jet
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TheGuiminator
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I know Johnston held him back with his god-awful system… but he still had no business losing the Art Ross to Benn.
He started the year with 33 points in his first 22 games, then completely fell off with just 51 points in the next 55 games. Had he just maintained a point per game pace during that stretch, he would’ve walked away with the Art Ross (88 points)
Bad coaching or not, he was still in his prime at 27. Totally inexcusable.
DickSmehlik
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I think the question that should be asked is not how many he would have had were it not for injuries but how many would he had were it not for Jamie Benn?
ImporterExporter
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There's nothing wrong with discussing the what if's, just as long as people are reasonable in their analysis and can remove the fandom from it. And apply that same approach across all eras for the other greats who missed time. Obviously there is some sarcasm in here, but I do see, what I consider biased takes as well.
Also, there are differences in types of injuries (being run by a scrub is not the same as consistently having soft tissue problems) and obviously missing time due to lockouts, covid, are apples and bowling balls when comparing them with the former issues.
I think the most reasonable take, even coming from this Pittsburgher, is Sid definitely lost out on 2 Harts, 2 Rosses, 1 Rocket (2011 and 2013). Beyond that, the water is fairly murky with tighter grouping of numbers.
07-08 was Ovi's peak season and although Sid was right there in PPG (1.37 to 1.36), he wasn't getting remotely close to 65 goals so I don't see an argument for Sid winning any major bullet points.
09-10, Ovi missed 10 games and that would have surely seen him win the AR over Sedin and Rocket over Sid who played 9 and 10 more contests.
10-11, as mentioned above, Sid was destroying the league at the halfway point. 1.61 PPG and the next closest guy was Sedin at 1.27, a massive gap that wasn't getting much smaller had Sid not taken that head/neck shot. Was easily the most dominant I've ever seen 87. I feel very confident Sid would have swept all the major awards had he played in even say 70-75 games.
11-12 is probably the next closet to a likely loss of Hart/Ross, but Sid only played 22 games. His PPG (1.68) was a good bit ahead of the 2nd place guy, Malkin (1.45). I'm less inclined to push Sid here simply because that pace would have almost surely came down a bit and playing 1/4 of a season isn't 1/2.
12-13 is similar to 10-11. Sid's pace over 3/4 of that season (1.56) was well ahead of St Louis (1.25). Despite missing the final dozen games of the year, 87 finished tied for 3rd in scoring, just 4 points behind MSL.
13-14, the only guy who could have possible caught Sid IMO was Malkin (1.20) who missed 20 games but was still 10% behind Sid (1.30). I'm sure Malkin would have been close with a full 82, but can't give him the nod in good faith.
14-15, yeah Sid most likely catches/passes Benn if he didn't miss 5 games. Finished 3 points behind in the AR race. I'd bank on Sid likely getting at least 4 points in those 5 games, but again, this is too close to call for me, especially when you consider Seguin and Kane were right behind in PPG and also missed a slew of games themselves.
Also, there are differences in types of injuries (being run by a scrub is not the same as consistently having soft tissue problems) and obviously missing time due to lockouts, covid, are apples and bowling balls when comparing them with the former issues.
I think the most reasonable take, even coming from this Pittsburgher, is Sid definitely lost out on 2 Harts, 2 Rosses, 1 Rocket (2011 and 2013). Beyond that, the water is fairly murky with tighter grouping of numbers.
07-08 was Ovi's peak season and although Sid was right there in PPG (1.37 to 1.36), he wasn't getting remotely close to 65 goals so I don't see an argument for Sid winning any major bullet points.
09-10, Ovi missed 10 games and that would have surely seen him win the AR over Sedin and Rocket over Sid who played 9 and 10 more contests.
10-11, as mentioned above, Sid was destroying the league at the halfway point. 1.61 PPG and the next closest guy was Sedin at 1.27, a massive gap that wasn't getting much smaller had Sid not taken that head/neck shot. Was easily the most dominant I've ever seen 87. I feel very confident Sid would have swept all the major awards had he played in even say 70-75 games.
11-12 is probably the next closet to a likely loss of Hart/Ross, but Sid only played 22 games. His PPG (1.68) was a good bit ahead of the 2nd place guy, Malkin (1.45). I'm less inclined to push Sid here simply because that pace would have almost surely came down a bit and playing 1/4 of a season isn't 1/2.
12-13 is similar to 10-11. Sid's pace over 3/4 of that season (1.56) was well ahead of St Louis (1.25). Despite missing the final dozen games of the year, 87 finished tied for 3rd in scoring, just 4 points behind MSL.
13-14, the only guy who could have possible caught Sid IMO was Malkin (1.20) who missed 20 games but was still 10% behind Sid (1.30). I'm sure Malkin would have been close with a full 82, but can't give him the nod in good faith.
14-15, yeah Sid most likely catches/passes Benn if he didn't miss 5 games. Finished 3 points behind in the AR race. I'd bank on Sid likely getting at least 4 points in those 5 games, but again, this is too close to call for me, especially when you consider Seguin and Kane were right behind in PPG and also missed a slew of games themselves.
The bigger question is how many art Ross would I have won if Tommy Tompkins didn’t hit me knee on knee in U11. No one will ever know the answer it will remain a mystery.
