Sidney Crosby vs Jean Beliveau

[nowhereman]

Very close but voted Crosby because he's by far classier

I'm assuming you're being ironic? I mean, I voted for Crosby too but Beliveau is arguably one of the classiest men to ever play professional sports.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Lot more easier to win All-Stars and Cups in a six team league.

Not sure how Beliveau was "pivotal" in 1959 when he played 3 games and scored five points.

Pound for pound, Crosby was easily more "pivotal" in the Pens four Cups runs than Beliveau was for the Habs.

Crosby reached a higher ceiling offensively than Beliveau, all things considered (e.g. vs. their peers, league size, PPG in injured seasons). Beliveau has the better signature regular season and playoff run but then it's Crosby mainly after that winning the elite elite season and playoff run battle.

It is very close between the two. Both deserve to be with the handful of players considered the #5 player all-time.

A lot easier to rack up points in a watered down league vs playing against 5 teams of all stars

 

[daver]

A lot easier to rack up points in a watered down league vs playing against 5 teams of all stars

Are you seriously one those "posters"? Usually this kind of talk gets shut down the in the HOH section. Hopefully it will here too.

From strictly a statistical point of view, Crosby's Top 3, 5 and 10 point finishes are better than Beliveau's as he was closer to the scoring leaders %-wise. No shocker there considering the league is five times bigger and there is more competition for the top spots in the scoring race. The same applies for Hart voting and All-Star placements. Regardless, Crosby now has more Top 3 Art Ross finishes/Top 3 Hart nominations than Beliveau anyways.

From the mid-40s to the early 90s, repeat Cup winners and dynasties were the norm, not the exception, in the case of repeat winners, and non-existent in the case of dynasties, in the 30 years since.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

A lot easier to rack up points in a watered down league vs playing against 5 teams of all stars

5 teams of all stars? Back then there were like 3 good teams that were stacked and 3 bad teams. So if you happened to play on one of the good teams (like Beliveau did) you were surrounded by all stars.

Not to mention there were no Americans, Europeans or Russians in the league.

 

[nowhereman]

A lot easier to rack up points in a watered down league vs playing against 5 teams of all stars

This is NOT a "watered down league". First of all, the NHL has far expanded its talent pool internationally and now boasts the world's best from the United States, Russia, Sweden, Finland, Slovakia, etc. Secondly, the NHL is a multi-billion dollar business now and children are groomed for success from a very young age, with full-time educational hockey programs and schools dedicated to pumping out the best players possible. No longer are American League-level players (like my grandfather) having to give up their NHL dream because they can make more money as a manager at a glass factory than playing hockey professionally. From top to bottom, the game is more competitive than it has ever been and standing out from the crowd is increasingly difficult.

What Crosby did, in the context of today's level of competition, was more impressive, IMO.

 

[daver]

This is NOT a "watered down league". First of all, the NHL has far expanded its talent pool internationally and now boasts the world's best from the United States, Russia, Sweden, Finland, etc. Secondly, the NHL is a multi-billion dollar business now and children are groomed for success from a very young age, with full-time educational hockey programs and schools dedicated to pumping out the best players possible. No longer are American League-level players (like my grandfather) having to give up their NHL dream because they can make more money as a manager as a glass factory than playing hockey professionally. From top to bottom, the game is more competitive than it has ever been.

What Crosby did, in the context of today's level of competition, was more impressive, IMO.

We have no idea what the best talent from other eras, which Beliveau obviously was, in other eras. Best to just compare them to their peers but with reasonable statistical context for weighing Top X finishes and All-Star voting, the latter being all but useless.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Lot more easier to win All-Stars and Cups in a six team league.

Not sure how Beliveau was "pivotal" in 1959 when he played 3 games and scored five points.

Pound for pound, Crosby was easily more "pivotal" in the Pens four Cups runs than Beliveau was for the Habs.

Crosby reached a higher ceiling offensively than Beliveau, all things considered (e.g. vs. their peers, league size, PPG in injured seasons). Beliveau has the better signature regular season and playoff run but then it's Crosby mainly after that winning the elite elite season and playoff run battle.

It is very close between the two. Both deserve to be with the handful of players considered the #5 player all-time.

I agree.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

A lot easier to rack up points in a watered down league vs playing against 5 teams of all stars

The talent pool is exponentially larger and better now than back then.

 

[RandV]

at my age I dont give a f*** about what anyone trusts.


Im more concerned with always knowing where the nearest rest room is….

Personally when it comes to 'history of hockey' with people who saw it back in the original 6 and later days I've never been as concerned about memory as much as a self-recognition of as persons own nostalgia filter.

You'll never be able to convince people who think otherwise but I think this one's easily Crosby based on the numbers game, there's argument to be made in the level of talent saturation but all things being equal it's much more noteworthy to stand out in a 30 team league than a 6 team league.

 

[ottawa]

Never seen Beliveau play so can't really vote...I bet 90% of us haven't seen Beliveau play

Crosby.

Overall they are fairly close in hart voting, point finishes, and beliveau with a decent lead in goal finishes. But being top-10 in a 6 team Canadian league is not the same as consistent top-10 finishes in an international league, which is why Crosby's accomplishments are greater imo.

3 cups in a bigger more competitive league is just as impressive as 10 in a 6 team league on a dynasty. Plus, it's a team achievement so it shouldn't matter regardless.

He won one in a 12 team league and one in a 14 team league.

 

[wetcoast]

Beliveau.

Two more first team all stars than Crosby.

Known for leadership and being such a gentleman.

10 Cups. Pivotal in all of them.

I'm sure some will argue Crosby has stiffer competition. But it is what it is.

2 more first all star teams…really in a 6 team league?

10 SC, yah in 58-59 the Habs never would have won had Jean not been 9 th in team scoring in the playoffs.

Just really weak arguments.

Jean is an all time great but he had low seasons that Crosby has never even been close to in his first 14 years.

Most people point to Crosby’s lowest season as one were he was still 10th in league scoring in a 30 team NHL.

 

[wetcoast]

Never seen Beliveau play so can't really vote...I bet 90% of us haven't seen Beliveau play



He won one in a 12 team league and one in a 14 team league.

He won 2 SC in a 12 team league and one in a 14 team one but the first 2 realistically it was still a 6 team league given how the conferences were divided and the advantages of the 6 team league that the Habs had were still relevant in the SC won in the 14 team league.


Not that it matters as we are talking about individual players here and their individual performances not teams.

 

[Czech Your Math]

2 more first all star teams…really in a 6 team league?

10 SC, yah in 58-59 the Habs never would have won had Jean not been 9 th in team scoring in the playoffs.

Just really weak arguments.

Jean is an all time great but he had low seasons that Crosby has never even been close to in his first 14 years.

Most people point to Crosby’s lowest season as one were he was still 10th in league scoring in a 30 team NHL.

interesting, because I'm having trouble finding his top ten finishes in 2011 & 2012.

I think it's about even, wish we had more plus-minus data for Beliveau. I voted Jean for being the ultimate captain and significantly better against the tougher defensive teams in playoffs, but one can make a case for each player.

 

[Varan]

Let's be honest. People saw Crosby on a poll and voted the other way.

You really, really need to stop your victim complex for Crosby. I see it in multiple threads.

He's literally an all-time great player. Every ATG has their fair share of haters.

Crosby is literally winning 100-30 LMAO. Guess you can say people say Beliveau and voted the other way.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Peers you could I agree but I personally find it very hard to compare players of different era's myself. One thing I'd like to add is people like saying current players are much more talented faster bigger etc. However if these current players played in past era's and vice versa both era's would be playing on level field. McDavid's fancy equipment and training methods wouldn't be available to him in 1960 and same goes for Orr now imagine how much better he could be with today's advanced tech. That's why I don't agree with people comparing players of different era's and usually saying today's players are so much better. They might have more skills but the equipment helps with that. Imagine Ovie playing with a stick from 1970 I doubt he's nearly as good as he is now. There is just too many variables for myself to compare them. Just my opinion I might be wrong who knows. Cheers

Performance vs peers is really the only way, obviously with context (teams they played on, league scoring, # of teams, etc).

I agree. Today's players are better, but that's not because everyone has magically become more naturally talented. It's the advancements in nutrition, training, etc. The true greats would be great in any era.

 

[Xspyrit]

He won one in a 12 team league and one in a 14 team league.

Factually yes. One important thing that should be noted though is that the expansion started in 1967, Beliveau won his last Cup in 1971... I think it's normal if it took a while before the new teams could find some success. The first expansion team to win was Philadelphia in 1974 and 1975. Montreal won the next 4 Cups as their last NHL dominance stretch

Regardless of those facts, the eras both players involved in this poll played are not even close to be comparable. A small regional league with pretty much only canadian players vs a continental league with a lot of foreign talent

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Problem is, that their peers are much more limited, thus casting doubt on the comparison. For instance, a player from the original 6 teams that only was compared to 120 players per season, mostly from Canada vs. a player today who is compared to > 600 players from all over the world every season.

I'm not casting doubt on players from a past generation, just that comparisons are almost impossible given the differences in the number of players, the equipment, the goalies, the defensemen, etc....

Performance vs peers with context of course (league scoring, # of teams, etc). As has been mentioned in this thread, when the resumes are close enough, the edge should go to the "modern" player. Not because he's necessarily a better player (I think Crosby is better/greater either way), but it's harder to build an ATG resume in a 30 team international NHL than a 6 team Canadian only NHL (as you mentioned).