Should the NHL come out with a Red Dutton Award?

[nabby12]

I was recently quoted in Stan Fischler's latest story for NHL.com on Red Dutton. See story here: Dutton helped revolutionize hockey, preserve NHL as 2nd president during World War II | NHL.com.

Dutton has long been shunned by the NHL, despite doing so much for the league. I suggested in the story that the NHL create a Red Dutton Trophy for best defensive defenseman, as the Norris Trophy is only awarded to top offensive defenseman.

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[Michael Farkas]

No because not enough people are qualified to evaluate defense and there are no stats to lean on...

 

[rmartin65]

No because not enough people are qualified to evaluate defense and there are no stats to lean on...

Not that I disagree with your point, and not that I think two wrongs make a right, but there is the Selke, so there is a precedence.

Dutton wouldn’t be my choice, though. I don’t know who would be, but I think I’d have a page or two of names before I got to him.

 

[nabby12]

Not that I disagree with your point, and not that I think two wrongs make a right, but there is the Selke, so there is a precedence.

Dutton wouldn’t be my choice, though. I don’t know who would be, but I think I’d have a page or two of names before I got to him.

I'd love to see this page or two list of names that you'd have before Red Dutton, a former president of the NHL that was also a Hockey Hall of Fame defensive defenseman....

No because not enough people are qualified to evaluate defense and there are no stats to lean on...

Brutal take, Farkas.

 

[MadLuke]

Adding awards always can create distortion, maybe the Norris make people less likely to vote for them when it comes to the Hart.

And it can be a bit hard to manage, best animated picture can make it hard for an animated movie to win best picture, but if you are certain in advance they cannot win...

When Chara won the Norris was he not the best defensive defenceman in the nhl ? maybe not, was he far from it ?
Lidstrom ?
Pronger?
Chelios ?

Could go either way for the norris, forcing a conversation about the best Defensive defenceman could put them in mind when come time to vote for the Norris or the reverse, Chara always won the Best D defenseman lets give the Norris to Mike Green instead.

And like for the Selke, which defenseman will be in enough voters mind to win anything, high profile one, will need really good campaign or like the Selke it could turn into winners into good points getters (this season or before) but not Art Ross type point getters, which is raelly close to what the Norris already do.

 

[rmartin65]

I'd love to see this page or two list of names that you'd have before Red Dutton, a former president of the NHL that was also a Hockey Hall of Fame defensive defenseman....

I’m not saying I’m right, haha, just that that’s not a name that would come to mind for me right away. I was focusing more on the defensive d-man side of things and wasn’t thinking about his contributions off the ice.

 

[nabby12]

I’m not saying I’m right, haha, just that that’s not a name that would come to mind for me right away. I was focusing more on the defensive d-man side of things and wasn’t thinking about his contributions off the ice.

Haha, yeah I hear you! The whole point I'm trying to make is that Dutton was an NHL executive and league president that was essentially shunned from the NHL ever since he left his post in 1946. Similar executives and team owners from his time period have been given Awards, Divisions or other things named in their honour, while Dutton has received zero recognition.

 

[Michael Farkas]

but there is the Selke, so there is a precedence.

And everyone complains that it's a reputation award...it's hotly contested.

 

[MadLuke]

And everyone complains that it's a reputation award...it's hotly contested.

And the complaint of being too geared toward offensive production exist for it.

Reputation award here (if it is just of defensive play and not for offensive when you were young), would be the best possible outcome for this I think and not a bad one.

 

[rmartin65]

And everyone complains that it's a reputation award...it's hotly contested.

All the subjective awards are influenced by reputation.

 

[MadLuke]

All the subjective awards are influenced by reputation.

You can win a vezina with very little to no reputation.

Jim Carey was a second round pick that played less than 30 nhl games when he won in 1996 against Brodeur-Fuhr-Roy-Hasek

Pre 2009 Tim Thomas ? It is a lot influenced by numbers and highlights reels.

That seems impossible for something like the Selke to not build toward it, Vezina-Hart-Norris a rookie could win (like Gretzky did), the Selke or Bing ?

Not necessarily a bad thing at all, reputation award make it impossible to have strange name you regret later in the winner list, you only have great player that built over a long time a reputation for it, but removing noise make you less precise.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Even when I was watching 300+ games per season for a while...I wasn't *sure* who the best defensive forwards were...I had a shortlist of guys I would consider, sure...I had names. But the best defensive forward in the league? I'm not totally sure and I know for a fact I was watching more games than 99+% of the population and voters. It's not that easy or obvious...like, it could be Nic Dowd or some such...some guy that doesn't score 80 points like Datsyuk.

 

[overpass]

No because not enough people are qualified to evaluate defense and there are no stats to lean on...

Right. It would be a mess if suddenly the league told voters at the end of the season "Oh hey we have this new award, please vote."

But what if the fact of the award existing led voters to watch games differently during the season? Maybe they do a little research, talk to coaches, watch the top candidates more closely, think about what they're watching for. Maybe the conversation around this topic changes.

Or is that way too much to expect?

And would it be the worst thing if Jaccob Slavin had won multiple Red Dutton awards in recent seasons? Or am I way off?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Or is that way too much to expect?

And would it be the worst thing if Jaccob Slavin had won multiple Red Dutton awards in recent seasons? Or am I way off?

It is for the garbage beat writers that, say, don't know what F1 is or what he does...they won't do any work. They don't know what to look for or ask about...

Is it the worst thing if Slavin wins? No, he is terrific. But what happens when he wins 8 of them? Is he now in a certain conversation? Where destroying is just as valuable as creating?

I'm not saying no. But why not an all defense team? What if it comes with a new stat - passes defensed? Plays broken up? Maybe it would turn out amazing. Or maybe it would be another Bud Heavy Plus/Minus Medal or whatever...

 

[MadLuke]

It could, but could be like the Selke, when was the last winner that did not had a good offensive season ?

Even Draper-Madden were not putting big numbers, but Draper won during its best offensive year (40 pts in 67 games during the dpe... not bad at all), that was almost first line center ppg that year (he was 39 in the league, 36 in even strenght points despite the missed game).

Maybe with social media and advanced stats (if they track skate-stick with AI ad what not), maybe it could be driven by different numbers than corsi-points-plus minus for who get attentions.... (in the lates 90s and 00s hits, block-shots would have influenced that type of award I feel like with Volchenkov and Komirasek getting votes, when takeaway popep up that would have)

 

[BadgerBruce]

Even when I was watching 300+ games per season for a while...I wasn't *sure* who the best defensive forwards were...I had a shortlist of guys I would consider, sure...I had names. But the best defensive forward in the league? I'm not totally sure and I know for a fact I was watching more games than 99+% of the population and voters. It's not that easy or obvious...like, it could be Nic Dowd or some such...some guy that doesn't score 80 points like Datsyuk.

Positive play percentage is tracked by a significant number of professional player development consultants today. I think Darryl Belfry was the first one to do it (or at least the first to get paid to do it, by Dean Lombardi in his LA days), though initially Belfry only tracked plays with the puck. But more than a decade ago he added plays without the puck — which included defensive work — to the analysis. All of which is a longwinded way of saying that defensive play is tracked and data exists. Most of it, unfortunately, is proprietary.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Oh yeah, I have seen it from some teams and companies. Same thing for goalie stuff. There's meaningful stuff out there.

Belfry is so great in the development space specifically.

 

[BadgerBruce]

So maybe the foundational issue here is who does the voting for a defensive defenceman award. I’d absolutely agree that VERY few people have the acumen to accurately evaluate defensive play, but they do exist and are on NHL payrolls. We don’t need to have the media or general managers cast the ballots. Instead, turn to the folks who make their living gathering and synthesizing the data.

 

[overpass]

So maybe the foundational issue here is who does the voting for a defensive defenceman award. I’d absolutely agree that VERY few people have the acumen to accurately evaluate defensive play, but they do exist and are on NHL payrolls. We don’t need to have the media or general managers cast the ballots. Instead, turn to the folks who make their living gathering and synthesizing the data.

I doubt the NHL owners would want their experts casting public votes.

In fact, they might not want anyone at all voting on this award. Or they might have to pay more at contract time for a Red Dutton award winner, or finalist. Remember how they stopped publishing hits and blocked shot stats in the early 00s because defensive defencemen were referencing them in contract negotiations.

 

[VanIslander]

1. A Best Defensive Defenseman award is well past due! THE LANGWAY AWARD.

2. A Best Passer award, which an Orr, Oates, Thornton & Kane would've won, is also worthy. THE GRETZKY AWARD.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Aka the Rod Langway Trophy. And yes they probably should

 

[VanIslander]

Aka the Rod Langway Trophy. And yes they probably should

As kong as all offense is eliminated from contention: it being about DEFENSIVE play (play without the puck)...

 

[sr edler]

What about a Craig Ludwig Shin Pads Trophy?

 

[VanIslander]

What about a Craig Ludwig Shin Pads Trophy?

SHOT BLOCK TROPHY! ...

if you wanna reductio...

As long as all offense is eliminated from contention: it being about DEFENSIVE play (play without the puck)...

 

[MadLuke]

could be hard to fully remove ability to clean the puck well from your zone from defensive play, it is an important part of it, Lidstrom for example, was around the best in the league at it for a while....

A Mike Green, Josi, Erik Karlsson plus.

Or remove from your brain someone that play the blue line in a risky way or bad pass in the neutral zone that lead to goal against.