Should the NHL amend its preseason structure?

CaliforniaBlues310

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Apr 9, 2013
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It definitely needs to be shorter. 7 preseason games is absurd. The season itself is long enough at 82 games. Make it 4 games max

7 games is fine. If they started later than the third or fourth day of camp, I’d get it, but the NHL roster guys are getting those 3-4 games you want anyways.

From a timeline perspective, the NFL and MLB’s preseason is longer, and the NBA is about the same as the NHL.
 

Perfect_Drug

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Mar 24, 2006
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Star players are hoping not to get injured while shaking off rust.

AHL players are looking to make a name for themselves by annihilating a star player.

Prospects trying to crack the roster are playing like it's the Stanley Cup finals, while roster locks treat it like the warmup that it is.
 

theVladiator

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May 26, 2018
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Season ticket holders are indeed forced to buy preseason games, or otherwise walk away from their long-term investment in the franchise.

The absolute least that management can do in return is try and make the games tolerable. If you have an A team and a B team, play the A team at home so the ticket holders can watch an NHL-level team or at least give/sell them away with some value attached.

It's a package deal, and the same reasoning applies - if the value of the whole package isn't there for you, do not buy it.

Conversely, as long as people will keep paying for these tickets and packages at these prices, the teams will keep on doing what they are doing. That's business for ya.
 
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tarheelhockey

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If you think something is overpriced, then don’t pay for it.

It's a package deal, and the same reasoning applies - if the value of the whole package isn't there for you, do not buy it.

Conversely, as long as people will keep paying for these tickets and packages at these prices, the teams will keep on doing what they are doing. That's business for ya.

Yeah no shit fellas.

Season tickets are a multi-year, and in many cases multi-decade investment. Forcing people to buy add-ons and then deliberately undermining the value of the add-ons is bad business, poor customer relations. There’s more nuance to this than you’re letting on, as evidenced by the example upthread of Leafs management stepping in when Mike Babcock refused to acknowledge that dynamic.

At the end of the day this is an entertainment industry. If the organization is deliberately choosing to put out a non-entertaining product, they’re being ignorant.
 
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Grifter3511

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The best prospects should play in those meaningful games, if you want to measure them. You generally know who is a cut above the rest, from the Young Stars games.

But I'll give you an example of what preseason is. The Jets for their home game against the Oilers, dressed their top 3 lines, their 4th line C and 5 of their top 6 d-men.

The Oilers brought tryout Hoffman, Connor Brown, Janmark, Derek Ryan, Kulak to town. I guess Emberson was a d prospect. Maybe Dineen. Savoie and Sam O'Reilly are legit prospects. But what's the point of even playing that game? Fine tune your stars against 4th liners, 3rd pairing d-men and AHL/CHL players? Is that what preseason really is?

To their credit the Jets brought young stars to Minnesota and got bounced. But the roster disparities in some of these preseason games, like the Florida/Carolina game I mentioned is awful. I don't follow every other league's preseasons, but generally you go out there to compete?
Shake off some rust and reestablish a little chemistry? That's exactly what preseason is.

actually yes there is.

Season ticket holders are required to buy pre season tickets. At least in Edmonton they are.
Those poor season ticket holders being charged an extra ~5% on their purchase.
 

theVladiator

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Yeah no shit fellas.

Season tickets are a multi-year, and in many cases multi-decade investment. Forcing people to buy add-ons and then deliberately undermining the value of the add-ons is bad business, poor customer relations. There’s more nuance to this than you’re letting on, as evidenced by the example upthread of Leafs management stepping in when Mike Babcock refused to acknowledge that dynamic.

At the end of the day this is an entertainment industry. If the organization is deliberately choosing to put out a non-entertaining product, they’re being ignorant.

... and the way it plays out is they lose sales. Sure, there is more nuance, but the irony of the customer complaining about the product and keeps on buying that product never gets old.

Oh, and by the way, that nugget where you say it's a "multi-decade investment", that's the stuff the business people absolutely love to hear. This is how they know they got you firmly by the balls and can get even more money out of you. I actually agree with you that they try to avoid diluting the pre-season product. I just do not agree on why. Note - in that Leafs anecdote the reason home team iced non-NHL team is because it was a hockey decision, not a business decision. From business POV they are happy to ice NHL pros, but not because they are afraid to make people unhappy. They won't be afraid of that as long as there are lines for season tickets. They will ice the pros because it doesn't cost them extra. They will find other means to leverage that vise-like grip in a different way to extract more of you money, and they will find a way that's less objectionable to you.
 
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GKJ

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The suggestion made is already in action, teams are playing rookie games every year, and some used to play tournaments.

Truth be told, they don’t really need 8 preseason games when only one is used for a dress rehearsal. Only really need 5 at most.
 

JianYang

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Sep 29, 2017
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Looking at the out of town scoreboard, the Hurricanes stars are pasting an inexperience Panthers lineup. Earlier in the week got to see the Jets vets hammer a mostly AHL Oilers squad. For fans are we getting shortchanged? Is there any point in having regular rosters play tryout rosters in preseason?

Could the NHL amend the preseason to give the 1st week of preseason for young stars and borderline players to compete, and then finish with 3-4 meaningful games where only the A prospects participate, and all the AHL calibre players go back to their respective training camps? Maybe have rosters cut down to 30 by the final week/2 weeks. Because preseason is essentially pointless, the only concern about higher calibre play is the risk for injury, but the iniquity in many rosters makes it almost impossible to actually assess a player in action.

I wouldnt say it's pointless. It's rehearsal for the guys who are locked in with a roster spot before the games start to count.

For the other guys, it's about getting yourself on the radar, and try to position themselves in the organization.

Major injuries suck but it can happen in the preseason (laine) just like it can happen in game 2 of the regular season (dach).

It's a game with significant inherent risks.
 

VivaLasVegas

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the only requirements as far I can see is they must play a minimum of 6 games up to a max of 8. and they must play at least 8 veterans in a game, or 6 vets with at least 30 games played last season.

Seems like pre-season works OK in the sense that the first three or four games are used to evaluate incoming players and the last three or four games are used to bring the veterans up to game speed and work the new players in somewhat.

I would still like the ASG to be played prior to the start of the season, and the season itself to start with a double-elimination tournament (5 games each round, 2-3 format) where the game points count. Now that would be an exciting season start!
 

miscs75

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Teams usually play a mixed bag the first 2-3 games to evaluate everyone and then start to put together a roster once cuts are made. Usually the last game is a full NHL game with maybe 1-2 fringe players each team who might make it as the extra skater.
 

tarheelhockey

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... and the way it plays out is they lose sales. Sure, there is more nuance, but the irony of the customer complaining about the product and keeps on buying that product never gets old.

Why is it an irony? If Apple rolls out an update that people don’t like, do people all throw away their phones and buy Androids? Obviously if people spend a LOT of money on something they’re going to make a calculated decision about when the company crosses a line, and it’s probably not going to be about something trivial and temporary.

That said, a building up a bunch of needless animosity with your core customers is not smart business. The sports industry is really a brand industry, so eroding your brand satisfaction among core customers is just foolish and not worth selling one more ticket a year and then deliberately making it valueless. Even if all it costs you is season ticket holders giving their reps a hard time during renewal, that’s eating into business efficiency in a way that doesn’t justify holding some hard line against your own customers.

Oh, and by the way, that nugget where you say it's a "multi-decade investment", that's the stuff the business people absolutely love to hear. This is how they know they got you firmly by the balls and can get even more money out of you.

Well yes, of course. That’s how season tickets work. If you want to spend a small amount of money and get a limited product, then get cranky and walk away tomorrow, this is not the product for you. It’s more like being a low-level stakeholder in the organization, in the sense that you’re buying the rights to future purchase of a commodity. It’s a multi-year, often multi-generational commitment and a different mentality toward the organization than your fan on the street.

It also means the company can’t afford to openly behave like they’ve got you “by the balls”, because the value of their commodity is strictly tied to their ability to maintain a list of buyers at the current and future price point. They might have a waiting list out the door, but they don’t want to cut into that list — they are relying on the current group of investors to stay put, which keeps the waiting list long, which keeps the prices high and allows them to keep raising prices year-over-year. If their base withers away, the whole scheme starts to weaken as tickets become more readily available. Their best interests are in having a permanent line of interested buyers who can’t get their hands on a ticket.

Note - in that Leafs anecdote the reason home team iced non-NHL team is because it was a hockey decision, not a business decision.

Right, and that was the point of the anecdote. Mike Babcock is just the sort of guy to be ignorant about the business implications of his behavior. Not just that he was careless with the customer base, but that when asked about it on camera he gave a dumb answer confirming that it hadn’t even crossed his mind. That’s where management has to step in and do cleanup.
 
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theVladiator

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Why is it an irony? If Apple rolls out an update that people don’t like, do people all throw away their phones and buy Androids? Obviously if people spend a LOT of money on something they’re going to make a calculated decision about when the company crosses a line, and it’s probably not going to be about something trivial and temporary.

To use your analogy, to me it looked more like somebody complaining about their Apple phone, while standing in the 3 hour queue to buy their next Apple phone :) That person may have all the red lines in mind and all that, but it also can look very ironic to an outside observer.

That said, a building up a bunch of needless animosity with your core customers is not smart business. The sports industry is really a brand industry, so eroding your brand satisfaction among core customers is just foolish and not worth selling one more ticket a year and then deliberately making it valueless. Even if all it costs you is season ticket holders giving their reps a hard time during renewal, that’s eating into business efficiency in a way that doesn’t justify holding some hard line against your own customers.

Well yes, of course. That’s how season tickets work. If you want to spend a small amount of money and get a limited product, then get cranky and walk away tomorrow, this is not the product for you. It’s more like being a low-level stakeholder in the organization, in the sense that you’re buying the rights to future purchase of a commodity. It’s a multi-year, often multi-generational commitment and a different mentality toward the organization than your fan on the street.

It also means the company can’t afford to openly behave like they’ve got you “by the balls”, because the value of their commodity is strictly tied to their ability to maintain a list of buyers at the current and future price point. They might have a waiting list out the door, but they don’t want to cut into that list — they are relying on the current group of investors to stay put, which keeps the waiting list long, which keeps the prices high and allows them to keep raising prices year-over-year. If their base withers away, the whole scheme starts to weaken as tickets become more readily available. Their best interests are in having a permanent line of interested buyers who can’t get their hands on a ticket.

Right, and that was the point of the anecdote. Mike Babcock is just the sort of guy to be ignorant about the business implications of his behavior. Not just that he was careless with the customer base, but that when asked about it on camera he gave a dumb answer confirming that it hadn’t even crossed his mind. That’s where management has to step in and do cleanup.

Completely agree with above. Yes, they have you by the balls. No, they can't be assholes (Babcocks?) about it. I think the part where we disagree is that you think that they would not be able to make you pay for AHL preseason hockey because they'd lose too many loyal customers. I think they'd be able to do it if there was any sort of business advantage to them doing so. They'd find a way not to be assholes about it, and to slow boil all the frogs without them jumping out of the pot so to speak. Since there is not business advantage, we won't find out whose opinion is correct here, and we can each stick to our guns.

Ultimately, I think they will take advantage of the power they have in an old fashioned way - by pushing the price point higher and higher.
 

TruePowerSlave

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Jun 27, 2015
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You pretty much should play a garbage team for the first few games to see how the fringe players handle it. After a bunch of cuts are made the top guys step in. However, not all teams go this route for whatever reason.
 

coolboarder

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Mar 4, 2010
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Just leave the training camp intact and go with no preseason games. It is virtually pointless to have a preseason action except for a few trying to make the team and only 2-3 players make the team. Most often the young players made the team because they played well during their call-up from last season. It is hard to judge a player in the preseason and is often a fool's gold when the real season starts. I am fine with no preseason games for as long as the length of days of getting ready for regular season via the training camp/practices/scrimmage which is 3 weeks away. Teams are free to schedule their preseason games if they wish to do it so at their own risk. Remove the mandatory of 6 preseason games for each clubs. I would let the club decide how many games they wanted to schedule for as long they remove the mandatory minimum requirement rules.
 

coolboarder

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This is very intentional.

Vets want a warmup. Coaches want to see how prospects/tryouts play against NHLers, not AHLers.
Most of their prospects that played a few games during their call-up from previous years usually make the team, not the other way around with a strong training camp for coaches to have a consideration of naming them to the starting roster. I am fine with no preseason games, to be honest. If the coaches want to know exactly what he has in a prospect, do it during his call-ups during the regular season. It is real tough to make the team if you haven't even played a game yet, even for the preseason and they oft are sent down and if they wanted to find out what they have in the system, they usually wait until any injuries struck the team. Unfortunately, they usually call up their grinders or even skilled prospect to 4th line that does not suit to their game and looked bad because they are not put in position to succeed. Almost all coaches practice that method. Very, very few made the team in their first pro season. Like I said, I'm completely fine of having no preseason games to protect their players from any prospects looking to make a name for himself when there is virtually no reason for them doing that with virtually no chance of making the team in the first place.
 

Spearmint Rhino

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Sep 17, 2013
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50% are just filler and have zero chance of making the big team, allows the rostered players ease into the season by only playing a few games. Would rather see it reduced to 3-4 pre-season games so players can get ready for the regular season. Pointless playing AHL teams as it's a much sloppier game and more chance of injury and is a rip off to the fans paying full prices.
 
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coooldude

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Reading through this, I think a fair answer is this:
1. Expect less of the preseason. It's for the orgs to evaluate their depth and ice the best team.
2. Franchises should probably charge less for the preseason games, but they also probably won't.
3. Fewer games. 4-6 seems more than enough.
4. Season ticketholders - change your mindset. It's not supposed to be a great product -- it's a window into your future prospects, and/or a reminder just how f'ing good the NHLers are compared to the second or third best league in the world.

When the Sharks were good, I never paid attention to preseason because who cares. But the Sharks are not good. Preseason is in some ways more interesting than the regular season will be, because we get a good look at prospects on the same ice and versus NHLers and other top prospects. I know not every team has this situation but you can take things out of the preseason even if it's not a "great on-ice product."
 
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egelband

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Sep 6, 2008
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Looking at the out of town scoreboard, the Hurricanes stars are pasting an inexperience Panthers lineup. Earlier in the week got to see the Jets vets hammer a mostly AHL Oilers squad. For fans are we getting shortchanged? Is there any point in having regular rosters play tryout rosters in preseason?

Could the NHL amend the preseason to give the 1st week of preseason for young stars and borderline players to compete, and then finish with 3-4 meaningful games where only the A prospects participate, and all the AHL calibre players go back to their respective training camps? Maybe have rosters cut down to 30 by the final week/2 weeks. Because preseason is essentially pointless, the only concern about higher calibre play is the risk for injury, but the iniquity in many rosters makes it almost impossible to actually assess a player in action.
Totally agree in principle.
I don’t have an opinion on the best way to do it, but somehow the fantasy camp players cannot be on the ice with the legit guys. It’s chaos hockey and as we’ve seen, dangerous.
 

Barrie22

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Aug 11, 2009
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Reading through this, I think a fair answer is this:
1. Expect less of the preseason. It's for the orgs to evaluate their depth and ice the best team.
2. Franchises should probably charge less for the preseason games, but they also probably won't.
3. Fewer games. 4-6 seems more than enough.
4. Season ticketholders - change your mindset. It's not supposed to be a great product -- it's a window into your future prospects, and/or a reminder just how f'ing good the NHLers are compared to the second or third best league in the world.

When the Sharks were good, I never paid attention to preseason because who cares. But the Sharks are not good. Preseason is in some ways more interesting than the regular season will be, because we get a good look at prospects on the same ice and versus NHLers and other top prospects. I know not every team has this situation but you can take things out of the preseason even if it's not a "great on-ice product."
As a shark fan you would of missed carle forcing his way onto the team, vlasic doing the same thing.
 
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