Should Cronin be fired? Yay or Nay?

[ScarTroy]

@Hockey Duckie I guess we can do this again.

Of those top 8 players (utilized in a top 6 role) you listed, the ones who played under Eakins and Cronin were as follows:

Vatrano, Rico, Terry, Zegras, McTavish, Strome.

Let’s compare how each did under Eakins vs Cronin.

-Vatrano 41 points Eakins/ 60 points Cronin
-Rico 38 points Eakins/ 42 points Cronin
-Terry 61 points Eakins/ 54 points Cronin
-Zegras 65 points Eakins/ 15 points Cronin, often injured.
-McTavish 43 points Eakins/ 42 points Cronin in much less games but whatever I’ll give you an even spread because he was hardly scoring down the stretch.
-Strome 41 points Eakins/ 41 points Cronin.

So this leaves you with the remaining 2 from your 8. Killorn and Rookie load managed Carlsson to makeup the points and games lost from Zegras. Also go ahead and look up how often these 8 were on the bench at the same time.

All I’m seeing from this is Zegras is struggling heavily in Cronins system, but everyone else either matched their points, or were slightly better or worse. This is as of last season when these conversations took place.

So get off your high horse (again) and stop acting like you’re some prophet because you said Cronin was a bad coach last year when we finished 3rd to last. Everyone saw it, you just toot your horn about seeing the blatantly obvious (again).

 

[emptynetter3]

cant have a coach trying to prove himself in the NHL, try and coach players doing the same thing....Detroit figured it out and the ducks are running out of time before major changes need to happen....Gerard gallant is a name that is sitting out there and before you write him off, he is a coach that expects to win and I'm sure he would be willing to walk away from the Canadian Spangler cup team....I just think this team/youth needs someone they can trust and believe that following them will lead them to success....no chance Cronin does that for them

 

[Firequacker]

Oh not this again.

I said 8 players, not 9 players. If you're gonna insult me, the do it correctly.

You mad at facts? Hot damn, there's Killorn and Carlsson in our top-8 scorers from last year! They weren't with the team under Eakins the previous year. Is it possible to add more top-6 talent to a roster?! Do "you" think it's possible to add more top-6 talent??? Is it even allowed in the NHL???

I provided the chart for you below as actual proof that you can add more top-6 talent to a roster. There are seven forwards in the top-8 scorers and then add Zegras. That gives up 8 top-6 forwards.

2023-24 top-15 Duck scorers.
View attachment 961634

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You have a problem separating criticism with wanting someone back. We still possess the same shit offense, but good defense in year 2 of Cronin. I don't know why you want to die on this hill when I've been proven correct, especially when you want Cronin fired yesterday this season. Don't get upset at me because I identified the problem last season and you are just now catching on.

Interesting how you are now pretending it was just about adding top six talent, and not you arguing to hell and back that it was about Eakins having worse injuries despite being proved wrong about that on every single metric (including your own statistically invalid ones). The thing you were actually arguing was wrong and will always be wrong, because "Cronin is a bad coach" and "Cronin's injury situation was worse than Eakins'" are not mutually exclusive concepts.
That's the hill you chose to die on, and now you proclaim yourself a martyr for it on a regular basis. But the only thing it was ever doing was undermining your other, better points against Cronin.

When your argument is the equivalent of "the sky is blue because Gary Bettman's secret cabal of alien lizard people repaints the ozone layer blue every Tuesday," you are actually wrong, and people who agree that the sky is blue are going to take issue with it, and you don't really get to take a victory lap about how nobody believed you about the lizard people every single freaking time the subject of the sky being blue comes up in the future.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

glad to see this thread become ‘stickied’.

Let me preface by saying: this ultimately stems all the way back when Kariya, Selanne, and somehow Neids were ‘consultants’(?) when looking for a new GM. Why were they allowed to do that? They should’ve fired Murray and found someone with EXPERIENCE.

This team with its clueless Head Coach and GM will never amount to any success sadly. It’s nice to hope and dream about Carlsson being a potential 70-90(!) point guy, Zegras becoming an offensive dynamo, Mintyukov being a true #1, etc. It will never happen as long as Cronin is behind the bench developing this guys (or attempting to).

I’ll say this.. Yes, they WILL win games. It’s not like they can finish 0 and ‘however many games are left in the schedule’, but I feel like they win DESPITE Cronin and his backwards ideologies and tactics. This hiring should have been viewed with extreme skepticism all the way in the beginning.

lots of people on here have great criticisms of Cronin.. @Dr Johnny Fever , @CrazyDuck4u , @Firequacker, @KelVarnsen , @Johnnyduck to name a few.. there is NO LIGHT at the end of this tunnel..

 

[HanSolo]

I said 8 players, not 9 players. If you're gonna insult me, the do it correctly.

You mad at facts? Hot damn, there's Killorn and Carlsson in our top-8 scorers from last year! They weren't with the team under Eakins the previous year. Is it possible to add more top-6 talent to a roster?! Do "you" think it's possible to add more top-6 talent??? Is it even allowed in the NHL???

I provided the chart for you below as actual proof that you can add more top-6 talent to a roster. There are seven forwards in the top-8 scorers and then add Zegras. That gives up 8 top-6 forwards.

2023-24 top-15 Duck scorers.
View attachment 961634

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You have a problem separating criticism with wanting someone back. We still possess the same shit offense, but good defense in year 2 of Cronin. I don't know why you want to die on this hill when I've been proven correct, especially when you want Cronin fired yesterday this season. Don't get upset at me because I identified the problem last season and you are just now catching on.

Not gonna butt in on the totality of this spat but the Ducks are still 14th in most GA/G while getting league best goaltending as tandems are concerned (Dostal is 3rd in GSAA while Gibson is 9th; we're the only team in the league with two goalies in the top ten). The Ducks give up the second most shots per game, second only to San Jose, they lead the league in expected goals against, second in the league in most high danger shots against just behind San Jose, and first in medium danger shots against by quite a lot.

NHL Team Stats

Stats and Graphs For All NHL Teams

moneypuck.com

It's a huge stretch to say the team's defense under Cronin is good. I'd argue quite the opposite. The metrics evidence that the defense is bad, and the reality is what the eye test shows, our goaltending is covering a lot of that up.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I mean sure that's a feather in Lacombe's cap for figuring it out on his own but he hadn't really broken out until the past month and a half. The point is, for the timeframe Greg said he took a hands off coaching approach we had Leo, Zell, Lacombe, Mac, Z and Minty going out there and just figuring it out on their own. Minty, Mac and Leo in particular are struggling heavily right now while Z still hadn't recaptured his offensive ability before his injury.

So the question becomes, what would've been better, 20 games of subpar development and teaching these players the wrong or suboptimal habits and approaches, or 20 games of no direction or instruction as a social experiment to see what would happen? We'll never really know but the fact that Cronin just decided not to do his job for 1/4 of a season in the foremost league in the world for this sport is completely and entirely unacceptable. Especially given that the stated goal was to learn what his players needed from him. Outside Lacombe, the only guys playing during that time are either Zellweger who has improved somewhat, Cutter who only played one game, or they're the names of kids that are struggling and stagnating in their development. Greg didn't learn a f***ing thing on how to get these kids to their development goals. So the experiment was a categorical failure and one that should result in his firing, yet here we are.

LaCombe's posted a 0.40 ppg last 20 games of the 2023-24 season, he was 0.40 ppg.

People forget that LaCombe got severely ill to start the season that he missed the season opener. Who know how much weight he did lose? Cronin deployed him in a sheltered fashion upon his return for his first seven games. LaCombe just needed time to recover from illness as well as get back into NHL form. His 8th game was when LaCombe started playing over 20 minutes. A few games later, LaCombe was paired with Zell b/c Fowler got injured. That meant LaCombe's OZ start time would significantly increase because Zell was always sheltered with the highest OZ start%.

To say Lacombe really broke out recently means you weren't keeping track of LaCombe's ascent.

---

Mintyukov

You are missing a lot of detail about Minty and his lack of offense. Last year, Minty was sheltered on third pair to start the season and he was scoring at a high rate of 0.55 ppg. It was when he was elevated up into the a top-4 role that his offense dipped. In a top pair role with Gudas last year, Minty's ppg rate was 0.25. Minty's DZ Start % last year was 50.9. Coming into this season, he was thrust into a top-4 role with higher defensive responsibilities. His DZ Start this year is 63.0%. It is understandable his offense is taking a hit right now since Minty is still learning how to play defense at the NHL level. I am not worried with his offense taking a backseat to developing his defense this year, since we're trying to develop a top-4D in Minty.

Late last season

This season

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I'm not too concerned with our defensive youth development under Cronin. As you can see, Zell is a very sheltered OFD. The problem I have with Cronin is his offensive forward youths. Cronin doesn't have other creative options to spring open our forward youths, which he admitted to in a recent post-game interview. Whatever schematic change Cronin did in November was the most he could do, which was to relax a bit on the dump & chase while also making our d-men more aggressive to pinch down.

One thing to denote is that LaCombe is scoring goals. Most of his goals are due to him crashing the net. We don't have a lot of our forwards crashing the net as often as LaCombe crashes the net with this dump & chase scheme. Are our forwards scared, out of position, or not quick enough to get to the front of the net? I know Mac crashes the net, but he's often the forward retrieving the puck along the boards after a dump. The Terry line doesn't dump and chase when they score; they score off of transition with either Strome or Vatrano crashing the net to serve as a screen and rebound specialist for the trailing Terry snipe, who also crashes the net in case a fat rebound bounces to him.

 

[DavidBL]

cant have a coach trying to prove himself in the NHL, try and coach players doing the same thing....Detroit figured it out and the ducks are running out of time before major changes need to happen....Gerard gallant is a name that is sitting out there and before you write him off, he is a coach that expects to win and I'm sure he would be willing to walk away from the Canadian Spangler cup team....I just think this team/youth needs someone they can trust and believe that following them will lead them to success....no chance Cronin does that for them

I think it's worth noting that Galant got a a first year Vegas team to the finals with insane buy in from the roster and good goaltending. If he can get that team to buy in, why not these kids?

 

[DavidBL]

Not gonna butt in on the totality of this spat but the Ducks are still 14th in most GA/G while getting league best goaltending as tandems are concerned (Dostal is 3rd in GSAA while Gibson is 9th; we're the only team in the league with two goalies in the top ten). The Ducks give up the second most shots per game, second only to San Jose, they lead the league in expected goals against, second in the league in most high danger shots against just behind San Jose, and first in medium danger shots against by quite a lot.

NHL Team Stats

Stats and Graphs For All NHL Teams

moneypuck.com

It's a huge stretch to say the team's defense under Cronin is good. I'd argue quite the opposite. The metrics evidence that the defense is bad, and the reality is what the eye test shows, our goaltending is covering a lot of that up.

This makes me think of a BM quote a few years before the collapse. "Good goaltending covers up a lot of warts" or something like that.

 

[JAHV]

I think it's worth noting that Galant got a a first year Vegas team to the finals with insane buy in from the roster and good goaltending. If he can get that team to buy in, why not these kids?

Those weren't kids. Most of those were already developed mid/late-20s castoffs who had something to prove. Completely different circumstances.

Kudos to Gallant and the whole organization for harnessing the spite energy. These Ducks don't have that well to tap into. Could Gallant do better here than Cronin? No doubt. But at best he's getting this roster maybe to the edge of playoff contention. Perhaps in year 2 he could get them into the playoffs.

But Gallant also has a pretty short shelf-life. He's been unceremoniously dumped from every organization he's been a part of after less than 3 years, despite having success there (aside from Columbus where he didn't have much success). I don't think this team is ready for Gallant.

 

[DavidBL]

Those weren't kids. Most of those were already developed mid/late-20s castoffs who had something to prove. Completely different circumstances.

Kudos to Gallant and the whole organization for harnessing the spite energy. These Ducks don't have that well to tap into. Could Gallant do better here than Cronin? No doubt. But at best he's getting this roster maybe to the edge of playoff contention. Perhaps in year 2 he could get them into the playoffs.

But Gallant also has a pretty short shelf-life. He's been unceremoniously dumped from every organization he's been a part of after less than 3 years, despite having success there (aside from Columbus where he didn't have much success). I don't think this team is ready for Gallant.

I don't wholly disagree with your points but part if what made the Vegas tram successful was a good plan and systems that fit their players. I think you try and use the idea that the team should be better than their record to inspire that buy in to the new systems. Try and use what pride they may have left to get them rowing together.

 

[JAHV]

I don't wholly disagree with your points but part if what made the Vegas tram successful was a good plan and systems that fit their players. I think you try and use the idea that the team should be better than their record to inspire that buy in to the new systems. Try and use what pride they may have left to get them rowing together.

I'm all for a coach with a good plan and better systems. I erroneously thought that any new coach the Ducks hired would be miles better than Eakins. I think Cronin is very slightly better, but given that Eakins was one of the worst coaches in NHL history, that's not saying much.

So yes, sign me up a for a better coach. If the Ducks fired Cronin today and hired Gallant, I'd be fine with it. But if I had to choose, I don't think Gallant would be the guy. I think the Ducks still have some runway before they're truly Cup contenders. It's going to be several years. At best you're looking at next year as a fringe playoff contender, and the year after that as a Wild Card qualifier. By year three, maybe you're hoping to be more competitive in the playoffs, but Gallant's history shows that by that point, he's toast.

I'd love to see a guy hired with a longer term in mind - a Bednar or Cooper type. Of course that would mean another coach with no NHL head coaching experience, and there are obvious risks there. I just think some stability would be great for this organization and I don't think Gallant brings that. If we're looking at a guy on a short-term basis to right the ship and get it pointed in a better direction, I'd rather see what Boudreau is up to.

 

[ohcomeonref]

You know what they say: the best offense is a bottom-5 defense!

 

[Firequacker]

Not gonna butt in on the totality of this spat but the Ducks are still 14th in most GA/G while getting league best goaltending as tandems are concerned (Dostal is 3rd in GSAA while Gibson is 9th; we're the only team in the league with two goalies in the top ten). The Ducks give up the second most shots per game, second only to San Jose, they lead the league in expected goals against, second in the league in most high danger shots against just behind San Jose, and first in medium danger shots against by quite a lot.

NHL Team Stats

Stats and Graphs For All NHL Teams

moneypuck.com

It's a huge stretch to say the team's defense under Cronin is good. I'd argue quite the opposite. The metrics evidence that the defense is bad, and the reality is what the eye test shows, our goaltending is covering a lot of that up.

Think it's also worth noting that the rates for all of the underlying stats you've cited here (as well as shot attempts and... well, probably everything else) are actually worse than last year.

	2023-24	2024-25
CA/60	60.65	67.56
SA/60	30.14	30.63
MDSA/60	6.83	7.15
HDSA/60	8.08	8.49
xGA/60	2.63	3.06

So much for that whole 'they'll have a year of familiarity with Cronin and his system' talking point they put out at the end of last season.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Think it's also worth noting that the rates for all of the underlying stats you've cited here (as well as shot attempts and... well, probably everything else) are actually worse than last year.

	2023-24	2024-25
CA/60	60.65	67.56
SA/60	30.14	30.63
MDSA/60	6.83	7.15
HDSA/60	8.08	8.49
xGA/60	2.63	3.06

So much for that whole 'they'll have a year of familiarity with Cronin and his system' talking point they put out at the end of last season.

Firehose theory debunked.

 

[Gliff]

Lets make this the most active thread on the board.

 

[HanSolo]

You know what they say: the best offense is a bottom-5 defense!

The truly annoying thing is Cronin doesn't want to try different offensive systems because it would compromise the defense, like...okay well that sucks too.

 

[KelVarnsen]

There are so many negatives about Cronin that I cant even comprehend what it is like playing for him. Back in my younger days when I played sports, there was one time I felt I knew more about the sport than my coach and it sucked.

Some of these guys have to realize they more than likely know more about what works in the NHL than Cronin. And then he says stuff like has been mentioned about not changing anything when things obviously are not working, and I can only imagine how frustrating that must be. Nothing screams confidence than a coach who admits in a roundabout way he has no answers to help a struggling team.

I hope he is gone soon (although I bet PV lets him finish the year).

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

There are so many negatives about Cronin that I cant even comprehend what it is like playing for him. Back in my younger days when I played sports, there was one time I felt I knew more about the sport than my coach and it sucked.

Some of these guys have to realize they more than likely know more about what works in the NHL than Cronin. And then he says stuff like has been mentioned about not changing anything when things obviously are not working, and I can only imagine how frustrating that must be. Nothing screams confidence than a coach who admits in a roundabout way he has no answers to help a struggling team.

I hope he is gone soon (although I bet PV lets him finish the year).

God I hope not, I’m thinking 1 more shutout on this road trip could get the job done

the coaches I would have targeted already got picked up.

 

[91Fedorov]

And what about his hair? Just shave the head already, man!

I want to make sure we're hitting this from all angles...

 

[Chileiceman]

And what about his hair? Just shave the head already, man!

I want to make sure we're hitting this from all angles...

His hair alone is a fireable offense IMO. That's all I have to contribute here, carry on Duck fans.

 

[Bender66]

I wanted Eakins fired for his ridiculous pat riley hair, so only fair we do same for Cronin

 

[WhatTheDuck]

There are so many negatives about Cronin that I cant even comprehend what it is like playing for him. Back in my younger days when I played sports, there was one time I felt I knew more about the sport than my coach and it sucked.

Some of these guys have to realize they more than likely know more about what works in the NHL than Cronin. And then he says stuff like has been mentioned about not changing anything when things obviously are not working, and I can only imagine how frustrating that must be. Nothing screams confidence than a coach who admits in a roundabout way he has no answers to help a struggling team.

I hope he is gone soon (although I bet PV lets him finish the year).

I've been through that as a player, but the coaches at least were great guys and overall were good to us players as people, even if it was obvious on day one the actual coaching wasn't going to be up to par.

If Cronin is also a prick as has been the talk, that must make it that much more insufferable. You have to at least be tactically sound if you're going to be a hard ass. If you're not a "player's coach" as they are described, nor have any answers on the tactical side, what are you really good for?

 

[HanSolo]

I've been through that as a player, but the coaches at least were great guys and overall were good to us players as people, even if it was obvious on day one the actual coaching wasn't going to be up to par.

If Cronin is also a prick as has been the talk, that must make it that much more insufferable. You have to at least be tactically sound if you're going to be a hard ass. If you're not a "player's coach" as they are described, nor have any answers on the tactical side, what are you really good for?

I don't know

 

[JAHV]

I've been through that as a player, but the coaches at least were great guys and overall were good to us players as people, even if it was obvious on day one the actual coaching wasn't going to be up to par.

If Cronin is also a prick as has been the talk, that must make it that much more insufferable. You have to at least be tactically sound if you're going to be a hard ass. If you're not a "player's coach" as they are described, nor have any answers on the tactical side, what are you really good for?

Please do not take the following as a defense or criticism of Cronin. This is just a response to your question as I think Verbeek (and possibly other GMs) would give.

The answer Verbeek would give is the entire reason Cronin was hired (and probably the reason he won't be fired, at least until after the season). Verbeek hired Cronin to teach and develop and instill work ethic and accountability.

The teaching and development part seems to be lacking from what we've seen on the ice. The only thing I can say in that regard is that they're taking fewer penalties than they've taken in forever. So perhaps Cronin's ability to teach individual defense and positional discipline has been effective. Otherwise, it's hard to see a ton of development in any of the young guys except LaCombe. And maybe we give him credit for Zegras being a more complete player, although his offense has been neutered, so I don't know that that's a positive. But maybe Verbeek sees things in the details that we don't see.

The other two items (work ethic and accountability) are impossible for us as fans to measure. We simply have no insight into it. Over the long-term, we should see the impact on the ice. But all we know about those things is speculation and hearsay. We've heard that Cronin's camps are tough and his workouts are tough and his meetings are interminable, so perhaps the players are developing good off-ice habits that will help them grow. We just don't know.