Speculation: Should Claude Lemieux be in the HOF?

[Kriss E]

Put it this way.

I wouldn't raise a fuss if he got nominated and got in.

It was never that serious for me.

I certainly don't think he's Hall of Fame worthy, but sure, there are other players I also think who aren't worthy and they're in.

So if that's how guys get in...fit him for a jacket I guess.

I'd say top 10 in PO goal history certainly earns you the right to be part of the discussion.
Add in trailing only Hull and Gretzky for the most GWG in the POs, that definitely fortifies the right to be nominated.
Throw in a Conn Smythe, 1200+ games played, 18 years in the NHL.
Ya...not sure why anyone wouldn't think he earned a nomination.

That's also ignoring his 4 cups on 3 different teams, and couple gold medals.

 

[beowulf]

Here is a question then as I noticed someone created a thread on the main board asking what Eric Staal needs to get into the HOF.

Who has the better case Staal with 1 Cup, no personal awards, 1 x 100 point season, 1,343 games 452 goals and 1,054 points so far OR
Claude with 4 x Cups + 1 x Smythe, 1,215 games, 379 goals and 786 points along with being tied for 2nd overall in playoff GWG and is 9th all time in playoff goals with 80 to Staal's 23 career playoff goals.

 

[417]

I'd say top 10 in PO goal history certainly earns you the right to be part of the discussion.

A discussion, which was what I thought this place was about and what we were doing until you went all Claude Lemieux vs the Wings in the playoffs on me lol.

Add in trailing only Hull and Gretzky for the most GWG in the POs, that definitely fortifies the right to be nominated.
Throw in a Conn Smythe, 1200+ games played, 18 years in the NHL.
Ya...not sure why anyone wouldn't think he earned a nomination.

That's also ignoring his 4 cups on 3 different teams, and couple gold medals.

I never said anything about him not earning or deserving a nomination.

The question was and still remains if he should be in the Hall of Fame.

It's ok to disagree on that, I certainly think you have valid arguments for it, his playoff numbers being chief among them, i just disagreed with one particular element of your position, which was the inclusion of other questionable inductees, I don't happen to think that's an endorsement, I think that for all Hall of Fames, it's nothing personal with you.

Like I said earlier, hope you get your wish.

 

[417]

Here is a question then as I noticed someone created a thread on the main board asking what Eric Staal needs to get into the HOF.

Who has the better case Staal with 1 Cup, no personal awards, 1 x 100 point season, 1,343 games 452 goals and 1,054 points so far or
Clade with 4 x Cups + 1 x Smythe, 1,215 games, 379 goals and 786 points along with being tied for 2nd overall in playoff GWG and is 9th all time in playoff goals with 80 to Staal's 23 career playoff goals.

Good question...neither are Hall of Fame FOR ME.

This a tough one though, i’d probably give the slightest of edges to Lemieux.

 

[Kriss E]

A discussion, which was what I thought this place was about and what we were doing until you went all Claude Lemieux vs the Wings in the playoffs on me lol.

I never said anything about him not earning or deserving a nomination.

The question was and still remains if he should be in the Hall of Fame.

It's ok to disagree on that, I certainly think you have valid arguments for it, his playoff numbers being chief among them, i just disagreed with one particular element of your position, which was the inclusion of other questionable inductees, I don't happen to think that's an endorsement, I think that for all Hall of Fames, it's nothing personal with you.

You said in the first post I answered that it would be setting the bar pretty low if he got in.
The mentioning of the other HoF inductees was to show you where the standard has already been set.

I'm discussing this within the standards of the actual HoF, not 417 HoF.

Like I said earlier, hope you get your wish.

I wish for peace in the Middle East. I wish for a raise at work. I wish for my folks to stay healthy for another 20 years.
I assure you, Lemieux getting inducted does not make my wish list. I couldn't care less buddy.

 

[417]

You said in the first post I answered that it would be setting the bar pretty low if he got in.
The mentioning of the other HoF inductees was to show you where the standard has already been set.

I'm discussing this within the standards of the actual HoF, not 417 HoF.

I’m not sure why you keep saying this lol it makes no sense.

I’m just answering the thread question.

I don’t think he should, I have MY reasons. I don’t have to see it through any other lense but my own.

Don’t agree, it’s fine man lol.

I wish for peace in the Middle East. I wish for a raise at work. I wish for my folks to stay healthy for another 20 years.
I assure you, Lemieux getting inducted does not make my wish list. I couldn't care less buddy.

Sure doesn’t come off that way…you’ve made it a personal vendetta that I don’t think he should get in and trying to force me to put aside my own reasoning and tried to shove yours down mine.

I’m good, boss.

Once again, hope you get your wish!

 

[Kriss E]

I’m not sure why you keep saying this lol it makes no sense.

I’m just answering the thread question.

I don’t think he should, I have MY reasons. I don’t have to see it through any other lense but my own.

Don’t agree, it’s fine man lol.

Sure is fine. It's also totally fine for me to point out the flaw in your logic.
Precedent - DELETE
4 cups - DELETE

But yes, we can totally agree to disagree. No issues mate.

Sure doesn’t come off that way…you’ve made it a personal vendetta that I don’t think he should get in and trying to force me to put aside my own reasoning and tried to shove yours down mine.

I’m good, boss.

Once again, hope you get your wish!

Meh..classic ''let me be me!'' 417 response lol
Just stick to the merits of earning HoF status and stop inventing this ''personal vendetta''.

But we can move on, cheers bud.

 

[417]

Sure is fine. It's also totally fine for me to point out the flaw in your logic.
Precedent - DELETE
4 cups - DELETE

But yes, we can totally agree to disagree. No issues mate.
Meh..classic ''let me be me!'' 417 response lol

Classic fake tough guy @Kriss E

Delete!!!!!

Hahahahaha

Just stick to the merits of earning HoF status and stop inventing this ''personal vendetta''.

You must have me confused with one of your kinfolk.

I'll stick to my reasoning thanks.

Imagine being asked to provide your opinion on a thread question and fake tough guy KrissE here steps in to tell you what criteria you should use.

You fell and bumped your head my guy lol.

But we can move on, cheers bud.

Are you sure?

I'm here if you need to talk whatever it is you're going through lol

In the meantime, I tell you what...next time the Hockey Hall of Fame names it's potential Hall of Fame inductees, I'll make sure to check with you who qualifies for it first.

Apparently you're on the committee of merits

 

[WingsFan95]

He's actually an outlier that will get in eventually, just a matter of when.

In other leagues the precedent has been set and to a lesser extent in the NHL with Glenn Anderson already in along with Neuwendyk.

The only comparison to Lemieux not being in is Butch Goring who also won 4 Cups including a Smythe run and their comparable goal scoring numbers in the regular seasons however. Goring played on much deeper teams in a much higher scoring era so his numbers are inflated whereas Lemieux's are the opposite, for the regular season. Secondly the playoff numbers are more than double in Lemieux's favor and it can be argued he was integral to at least 2 Cup winning teams if not 3 along with an additional Final and 5 Conference Final appearances. Nevermind winning Cups on 3 different teams which is a novelty in itself.

Despite his 80 career playoff goals sitting at 9th I think him being only behind Gretz and Hull with 19 game winning goals in the playoffs is what ends up sliding him in along with the playoff numbers overall and 4 Cups. It might take a while but he'll get in.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

Baffling? He was a top grade jack ass.

Underrated, clutch player. That being said, I’d exclude him for that cheap shot on Draper.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Underrated, clutch player. That being said, I’d exclude him for that cheap shot on Draper.

Draper? Who cares? ut him in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Tyson]

Underrated, clutch player. That being said, I’d exclude him for that cheap shot on Draper.

There is probably some validity to this comment. I bet this had something to do with him being excluded. That was one of the most vicious, cowardly things I ever witnessed during a hockey game.

 

[the valiant effort]

Justin Williams, come on down!

 

[Mrb1p]

No. Hard stop.

 

[HuGort]

4 Stanley Cup championships
19 GWG in the playoffs.

80 career playoff goals.

It is kind of baffling why this player is not a Hall of Famer.

I would say yes, he should be in.

 

[StCaufield]

I don’t want that dirty meat head in the hall but these days I can see Drouin getting in because almost anybody can now. It’s a joke. Guy has zero class and was carried by better players. Kind of like what Nichushkin has been for the last while in Colorado. I don’t know. He’s basically a dumb player who ruined games and probably series’s from stupid penalties and caused life changing injuries

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

No. Doesn't have the counting stats or the awards. Good player though.

 

[MXD]

I'd say top 10 in PO goal history certainly earns you the right to be part of the discussion.
Add in trailing only Hull and Gretzky for the most GWG in the POs, that definitely fortifies the right to be nominated.
Throw in a Conn Smythe, 1200+ games played, 18 years in the NHL.
Ya...not sure why anyone wouldn't think he earned a nomination.

That's also ignoring his 4 cups on 3 different teams, and couple gold medals.

Eric Staal, in his prime, was good enough to be the best or second best forward on a cup-winning team.
I'm not sure a team with Claude Lemieux as the second best forward can make the playoffs.

He's was an absolutely great piece to have, but was kinda like Esa Tikkanen, in that there's a reason why neither were the best players on their team (and when they were too close to being the best player, the results weren't that great).

 

[Chili]

Underrated, clutch player. That being said, I’d exclude him for that cheap shot on Draper.

Remember Eric Lindros on little Andreas Dackell? Could probably make a list of hall of famers with some pretty shameful incidents back to Eddie Shore.

The question I would ask, did Dick Duff's election open the door for anyone else? i.e. someone who was able to raise his game in the playoffs when it matters most and be an important part of championship teams.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I cant remember if it was nilan or ludwig, but they mentioned that Claude Lemieux was MVP caliber in the 86 run, and he obviously the MVP in the 95 cup win.

High praise, and a guy who every team wanted when the chips were down, despite the shenanigans.

"MVP caliber" is hyper subjective phrasing.

He was great in '86 but Roy was easily the MVP and I would have had Naslund, Carbonneau, Robinson and Chelios ahead of him as far as overall play goes. The timing of his goals likely puts him 2nd behind Roy but that is putting a lot of weight on a statistical anomaly.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Eric Staal, in his prime, was good enough to be the best or second best forward on a cup-winning team.
I'm not sure a team with Claude Lemieux as the second best forward can make the playoffs.

He's was an absolutely great piece to have, but was kinda like Esa Tikkanen, in that there's a reason why neither were the best players on their team (and when they were too close to being the best player, the results weren't that great).

Regular season, absolutely.

96-97 Lemieux was 2nd on the avs, who did lose, but was over a point per game.

2nd on the Habs for playoff scoring as a rookie for the 86 cup.

Finished 4th on the devils when they won their cup in '95, but he was first with 13 goals, 5 more than anyone else on the team.

Lemieux is a bitch, but he was massive in the playoffs for teams he played with, very unique.

Almost in the same sense as Neely was unique as the term power forward was developed for him, or Carbonneau for his defensive prowess

 

[HuGort]

I always thought Randy Carlyle should be in Hall also. He won a Norris, First team all-star. Played over 1,000 games. Coached over 900 games with .544% winning percentage. Has a ring.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

Here is a question then as I noticed someone created a thread on the main board asking what Eric Staal needs to get into the HOF.

Who has the better case Staal with 1 Cup, no personal awards, 1 x 100 point season, 1,343 games 452 goals and 1,054 points so far OR
Claude with 4 x Cups + 1 x Smythe, 1,215 games, 379 goals and 786 points along with being tied for 2nd overall in playoff GWG and is 9th all time in playoff goals with 80 to Staal's 23 career playoff goals.

I don't think Staal gets in but he has better counting stats and has better pedigree (2nd OV in 2003 draft), more all-star appearances (Claude Lemieux has none), and the Olympic Gold (although Lemieux has Canada Cup Gold and a few other international appearances), plus Staal is part of a famous hockey family. The only thing Lemieux has is the Smythe and the Stanley Cups.

Personally I would put Staal in before Lemieux because Staal was definitely a better player to build a team around in his prime. But I actually think neither gets in.

 

[MXD]

Regular season, absolutely.

96-97 Lemieux was 2nd on the avs, who did lose, but was over a point per game.

2nd on the Habs for playoff scoring as a rookie for the 86 cup.

Finished 4th on the devils when they won their cup in '95, but he was first with 13 goals, 5 more than anyone else on the team.

Lemieux is a bitch, but he was massive in the playoffs for teams he played with, very unique.

Almost in the same sense as Neely was unique as the term power forward was developed for him, or Carbonneau for his defensive prowess

I meant, second best forward in the general sense of things. Not in terms of playoff statsheet. For the record, I consider Stephane Richer the better player (and Pepe would probably be the first to admit that Richer was the better player anyways). Though if I'm building at team who's a total contender for the Stanley Cup, I'd probably rather have Lemieux than Richer, because Lemieux fits better as a support-player, and if I'm contending, I probably have better options than Richer.

I don't think Staal gets in but he has better counting stats and has better pedigree (2nd OV in 2003 draft), more all-star appearances (Claude Lemieux has none), and the Olympic Gold (although Lemieux has Canada Cup Gold and a few other international appearances), plus Staal is part of a famous hockey family. The only thing Lemieux has is the Smythe and the Stanley Cups.

Personally I would put Staal in before Lemieux because Staal was definitely a better player to build a team around in his prime. But I actually think neither gets in.

Yep. Eric Staal is probably okay-ish the HHOF, but he's definitely not a player who absolutely HAS to get in. There will be better players than Eric Staal who won't make the HHOF AND who, themselves, absolutely don't have to be in either (Jeremy Roenick is an obvious low-hanging comparable)

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I don't think Staal gets in but he has better counting stats and has better pedigree (2nd OV in 2003 draft), more all-star appearances (Claude Lemieux has none), and the Olympic Gold (although Lemieux has Canada Cup Gold and a few other international appearances), plus Staal is part of a famous hockey family. The only thing Lemieux has is the Smythe and the Stanley Cups.

Personally I would put Staal in before Lemieux because Staal was definitely a better player to build a team around in his prime. But I actually think neither gets in.

Is this the NHL Hall of Fame or is it now the all of hockey Hall of Fame. The only thing that should matter is NHL performance and playoff performance should be paramount.