News Article: Shero fired, Fitz interim GM part II

[RandoDoomer]

I have no problem with the Trade...The writing was on the wall in September. Hall was testing the UFA market. That is it. What is the GM or anyone else to do at that point?

Two criticisms I have in how it all went down...The GM allowed the situation to become a major distraction. This pretty obviously was the case. Hall poisoned the team from my vantage point...And when you have young players like Hughes, Hischier, Bratt and Boqvist that malignancy should have been removed much sooner to avoid that vibe rubbing off on the kids.

2nd, and not so much a complaint as a wish...I wanted something NHL ready in return. I think getting picks and prospects only put us on a longer road of building. But hey we had to take what we could get in those circumstances.

The Hall experiment in hindsight stalled our rebuild in my opinion. It kind of hit the pause button and put us in an unsure space of "Can we compete" when in reality we where nowhere close...In hindsight as great as the MVP season was I think getting was not the best thing for this franchises quest to rebuild.

This. Hall going nuts and dragging a team that didn't belong into the playoffs gave the illusion that the rebuild was much further along than it really was. I don't know if the trade was a "mistake" per se, since the final net was some more draft picks (prospects who might crack an NHL roster in like 2023 or so).

 

[MNDevilsfan]

How else was he going to spin it?

"We really wanted something more, but had to settle for this."

That would surely ease the fanbase.

I mean, personally I would have preferred that, but obviously I understand that selling the trade is part of his job. Anyway, I was really just making an offhand, snarky comment about Ray pumping up a depth D guy he got in the return for Hall. I didn't mean to derail the discussion, and certainly wouldn't rank it high on my list of Ray Shero missteps.

I get that the Hall return is divisive. I am probably more sour on it than I ought to be, simply because those last couple months were just such a sad end to his tenure in New Jersey. That said, I think there's legitimate bones to pick with the return that aren't born out of too lofty expectations and/or a belief he could've done better if he held out.

I've mentioned it before in the various threads, but my biggest issue is that none of the assets acquired carry a particularly high probability of becoming an impact NHL player down the road, which is really what we need. I believe interest in acquiring guys like Bahl fits a pattern of using premium assets (i.e., high draft picks and trade capital) to get players with a high chance of contributing to the overall depth of the prospect pool, and the NHL lineup down the road, regardless of their potential upside. It makes far more sense to me to assume more risk for a higher ceiling. Now I will certainly agree that in this case its very possible Bahl was legitimately the best prospect ever coming back to NJ in a Hall trade, but given this management group's draft history I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was someone they specifically wanted either.

 

[AfroThunder396]

This is my point there’s barely any risk for Arizona. This trade is a mess. The second first is a joke, why even bother. They didn’t get an A prospect and the value of the “second pick” directly relates to the value of the “first pick”. They do well the Devils could get two firsts but their value is propbly lower (20+) vrs (10-20). But if the do poorly the value drop significantly if the second pick. It’s that simple. A no strings attached pick or a better prospect, not quantity. Ray could of had more leverage at the deadline, when teams are more desperate. It’s rare for players to be traded in December, and the way it was handled didn’t look good. I can understand why ownership would let him go before the deadline.

What does Arizona's risk have to do with anything? Why on Earth would they be reckless just for the sake of being reckless?

Hall is already an inconsistent injury prone guy who missed half a season, has no term left, and was not playing very well at the time they acquired him - that's their risk.

You seem to think that the other team must lose in order for it to be a good deal.

 

[BurntToast]

Posters are forgetting this and what IMO is the most important issue. The team is playing better since the trade. Why keep playing poorly with Hall for a slightly better return?

Or somebody elses top player gets injured and increases Hall’s value.

 

[Billdo]

Or somebody elses top player gets injured and increases Hall’s value.

If you wanna go this way I'll end it with or Hall blows out his knee tonight and has zero value.

 

[MartyOwns]

Right now? And I'm not including prospects, here -- just NHLers

G Blackwood

D None

LW Bratt, Boqvist, Coleman

C Hischier, Hughes, Zajac

RW Palmieri, Gusev


Anyone outside this group, I'd give them up for the right price. And also, as I've stated, I don't trade Andy Greene unless he wants to go to a contender -- he's earned that with the organization.

i agree with your list, except for bratt. i don’t see him as a core player; in fact, i’d wager he gets moved (along with wood) at some point in the next 3 years.

 

[Triumph]

Hall's value only increases incrementally if someone else's top player gets hurt - that team certainly isn't going to trade for Hall, it just means theoretically a better opportunity for everyone else in their conference.

The return on the Hall deal was not great. That said, the only 'NHL-ready' stuff you get in a deal like this is either A: not very good or B: most of the full thrust of the deal. The Devils could've gotten more from waiting, but not very much more.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Bahl should clearly give his gold medal from WJC back for being so underwhelming

 

[Blackjack]

i agree with your list, except for bratt. i don’t see him as a core player; in fact, i’d wager he gets moved (along with wood) at some point in the next 3 years.

Bratt hasn't found consistency yet, but he continues to show flashes of brilliance and he's only 21. If he doesn't ultimately find that consistency then I agree, but I'm hoping he does.

 

[BurntToast]

What does Arizona's risk have to do with anything? Why on Earth would they be reckless just for the sake of being reckless?

Hall is already an inconsistent injury prone guy who missed half a season, has no term left, and was not playing very well at the time they acquired him - that's their risk.

You seem to think that the other team must lose in order for it to be a good deal.

Hall is still more valuable than future assets. He may not be MVP or the best 2 way guy but he is still very productive. There is a real possibility the Devil’s traded Hall for nothing. If they were happy with that value why continue to shop him. Make the trade and move on or don’t pull him two months before the deadline. Shero is all over the map. You give up 4 picks for Subban and Gusev, then instead of getting something of impact he trys to recoup the picks. He did the same thing during 2017-2018 deadline. Gave up a bunch of picks to get the Devils into the playoffs and then did nothing during the summer. People are worried about mediocrity when the Devils are all ready there.

 

[Blackjack]

Hall is still more valuable than future assets. He may not be MVP or the best 2 way guy but he is still very productive. There is a real possibility the Devil’s traded Hall for nothing. If they were happy with that value why continue to shop him. Make the trade and move on or don’t pull him two months before the deadline. Shero is all over the map. You give up 4 picks for Subban and Gusev, then instead of getting something of impact he trys to recoup the picks. He did the same thing during 2017-2018 deadline. Gave up a bunch of picks to get the Devils into the playoffs and then did nothing during the summer. People are worried about mediocrity when the Devils are all ready there.

It's almost like something happened between the Subban trade and the Hall trade that was unexpected and changed the calculus.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

Or somebody elses top player gets injured and increases Hall’s value.

Bottom line - Hall has now been traded twice. Neither time did he return a significant amount. It seems some HFB posters value Hall more than NHL GMs.

Last 10 games:
Devils 6-2-2
Coyotes 4-5-1

 

[MartyOwns]

Bratt hasn't found consistency yet, but he continues to show flashes of brilliance and he's only 21. If he doesn't ultimately find that consistency then I agree, but I'm hoping he does.

yeah and i didn’t mean it as a slight against the guy- i’m not in love with him like most of this board but he’s still a quality player. it’s that same quality play that would make him a trade target- unless you’re trading with chiarelli, you have to give up a good player to get a good return, and i think bratt’s return could have a greater impact than bratt would have in our lineup

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

Based on what players have returned past deadlines, and the fact that Chris Krieder is likely going to be available, I was fine with Shero pulling the trigger on that package at the time. A 1st and a B/B+ dman prospect was realistically what we can expect if we had waited til the deadline.

Given the team looks better without Hall and we now have more games/information to understand how the team is going to perform without him and more development time for the young guys (Bratt on the top line, Hughes on line 3 I think is preferred for both of their developments) I definitely think Shero made the right call with some hindsight, without knowing the other offers.

 

[MNDevilsfan]

Bahl should clearly give his gold medal from WJC back for being so underwhelming

I mean, come on, I am willing to admit I am probably more down on the kid than he deserves given that he's coming here as part of the Hall trade, but let's not act like being on a gold medal winning WJC team is by default some metric of future success.

Some of what I read about him post trade, particularly from Pronman and Wheeler at the Athletic, changed my view a bit. It certainly sounds like he's been consistently trending up, so very open to the idea that I am underrating him at least somewhat. Still, I think most analysts agree that his realistic ceiling is probably as a good #4 defenseman. Personally I am simply not going to get too jazzed about that when the player you're sending back is one of the best left wings in the game, even with the extenuating circumstances around Hall, even if he has a high probability of hitting that ceiling.

Maybe he'll prove everything I just said wrong and be a big time player for us down the road. That would be awesome and I would happily eat crow if it comes to pass.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I have no problem with the Trade...The writing was on the wall in September. Hall was testing the UFA market. That is it. What is the GM or anyone else to do at that point?

Two criticisms I have in how it all went down...The GM allowed the situation to become a major distraction. This pretty obviously was the case. Hall poisoned the team from my vantage point...And when you have young players like Hughes, Hischier, Bratt and Boqvist that malignancy should have been removed much sooner to avoid that vibe rubbing off on the kids.

2nd, and not so much a complaint as a wish...I wanted something NHL ready in return. I think getting picks and prospects only put us on a longer road of building. But hey we had to take what we could get in those circumstances.

The Hall experiment in hindsight stalled our rebuild in my opinion. It kind of hit the pause button and put us in an unsure space of "Can we compete" when in reality we where nowhere close...In hindsight as great as the MVP season was I think getting was not the best thing for this franchises quest to rebuild.

But Ray won the trade, isn’t that all that matters - all other factors be damned??

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Hall is still more valuable than future assets. He may not be MVP or the best 2 way guy but he is still very productive. There is a real possibility the Devil’s traded Hall for nothing. If they were happy with that value why continue to shop him. Make the trade and move on or don’t pull him two months before the deadline. Shero is all over the map. You give up 4 picks for Subban and Gusev, then instead of getting something of impact he trys to recoup the picks. He did the same thing during 2017-2018 deadline. Gave up a bunch of picks to get the Devils into the playoffs and then did nothing during the summer. People are worried about mediocrity when the Devils are all ready there.

you can say this about any trade made for draft picks in sports history.

 

[Blackjack]

you can say this about any trade made for draft picks in sports history.

Obviously we should have kept Hall, continued to suck, and then lost him July 1 for nothing.

 

[Nubmer6]

Supposedly Shero turned down a different trade that was "a hockey trade". I'm wondering what that was, and if that factored into the owner's decision. Maybe it consisted of a good defenseman that could help us now, but on an expiring contract.

If the rumors are correct and Calgary is the other team, my suspicion is that Brodie or Hamonic (+ picks) was one of the pieces, neither of which thrill me as a return for Hall, but is it possible ownership preferred that over Bahl?

 

[Oneiro]

For me, the Hall trade will come down to who they take with Arizona's 1st. If they hit on that pick with another core piece and Bahl becomes a top 4 D, I'd say that's an easy win for us.

And yeah, I don't think we would've been too happy with a "hockey" trade between us and Calgary.

 

[Blackjack]

Supposedly Shero turned down a different trade that was "a hockey trade". I'm wondering what that was, and if that factored into the owner's decision. Maybe it consisted of a good defenseman that could help us now, but on an expiring contract.

If the rumors are correct and Calgary is the other team, my suspicion is that Brodie or Hamonic (+ picks) was one of the pieces, neither of which thrill me as a return for Hall, but is it possible ownership preferred that over Bahl?

I thought it was Sam Bennett.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I am still on board with packaging Arizona's 1st with whatever for a legit top 4 LHD

 

[Nubmer6]

I thought it was Sam Bennett.

Any time anyone mentions any trade with Calgary Sam Bennett will come up. It's kind of like Colorado and Jost

 

[Nubmer6]

I am still on board with packaging Arizona's 1st with whatever for a legit top 4 LHD

I'd do that in a split second if there were a young-ish one available.

 

[Billdo]

Hall's value only increases incrementally if someone else's top player gets hurt

And if he gets hurt everyone's screwed.