Player Discussion Shea Weber Part II

[sandviper]

Shaw mentioned that weber broke his ribs in the playoffs with one of his patented crosschecks along the boards.

I think Weber is just extremely strong

Yup. He just plays hard and doesn’t go head hunting, or rib hunting in this case. I don’t think he ever intends to seriously injure a person but if it happens, it happens.

 

[Kriss E]

I would agree...although this edition making the playoffs, with not a single forward older than 29yrs old, would be a bit different for me.

There's no "I hit my peak " Plekanec, or "past my prime" Gionta or Cole/Ryder/Prust/Armstrong/Moen/Bourque

On this team, so I'd feel more encouraged by an earned playoff spot then I did at the time.

But I generally agree with your bigger picture scenario.

I think Petry is definitely peaking right now, and will drop. Price, has already drop, arguably.
Weber..he's 33. Some people like to say he'll be good indefinitely. That remains to be seen, and if you're telling me to choose between keeping Weber or getting Stl's 1st pick....the choice is easy for me and I wish farewell to Shea.
You're not looking at a team built to be good 4-5-6-7 years down the line. You're looking at a team that needs to contend asap, and I just don't see it happening.
Let's not forget Domi, if he keeps it up, will get one heck of a raise very soon, and then there's a very real possibility of another lockout.
So again, I much prefer going through the slow route this time around. You said our guys our young, let's use it to our advantage then, slowly rebuild and try to get more high end talent via draft.

 

[Perrah]

I would agree...although this edition making the playoffs, with not a single forward older than 29yrs old, would be a bit different for me.

There's no "I hit my peak " Plekanec, or "past my prime" Gionta or Cole/Ryder/Prust/Armstrong/Moen/Bourque

On this team, so I'd feel more encouraged by an earned playoff spot then I did at the time.

But I generally agree with your bigger picture scenario.

2012-13 Habs were held together by scotch tape (Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Markov, notwithstanding). Lots of patchwork on that team.

I feel there less patchwork on this team (left side of the D notwithstanding). So I think future success, as long as its nurtured properly, is more sustainable on this edition.

I disagree with the more sustainable until players like Drouin and Domi prove they can reproduce what is being accomplished at the moment. If they dont produce at the same clip they are so far this year then the Habs are back to a team of 2 second lines instead of a first line.

 

[417]

I think Petry is definitely peaking right now, and will drop. Price, has already drop, arguably.
Weber..he's 33. Some people like to say he'll be good indefinitely. That remains to be seen, and if you're telling me to choose between keeping Weber or getting Stl's 1st pick....the choice is easy for me and I wish farewell to Shea.
You're not looking at a team built to be good 4-5-6-7 years down the line. You're looking at a team that needs to contend asap, and I just don't see it happening.
Let's not forget Domi, if he keeps it up, will get one heck of a raise very soon, and then there's a very real possibility of another lockout.
So again, I much prefer going through the slow route this time around. You said our guys our young, let's use it to our advantage then, slowly rebuild and try to get more high end talent via draft.

Yeah I was talking strictly forwards...much more work on defense left to do.

 

[417]

I disagree with the more sustainable until players like Drouin and Domi prove they can reproduce what is being accomplished at the moment. If they dont produce at the same clip they are so far this year then the Habs are back to a team of 2 second lines instead of a first line.

I don't think Domi and Drouin are producing at an unsustainable pace.

Even if they settle into a 60-65pt pace, that's still pretty good and something to build on.

 

[BaseballCoach]

well you're the one who proved them right...

I mean, that's the scenario you wrote : for the Habs to win a single round of PO, everything has to be right and pretty much every player has to exceed expectations. And you've come to the conclusion that if everything goes right and every players play way above expectiation, then maybe the future looks bright ?

Bright-ER. Not a sure thing, but on the right track.

Why? Because...... and here is the difference between us ..... "if everything goes right and every players play way above expectation" it means our expectations were probably too low, not that we were still "right all along" and disaster will come next year.

 

[Lshap]

well you're the one who proved them right...

I mean, that's the scenario you wrote : for the Habs to win a single round of PO, everything has to be right and pretty much every player has to exceed expectations. And you've come to the conclusion that if everything goes right and every players play way above expectiation, then maybe the future looks bright ?

Oilers could do that too (win 1 round), yet they're a one man team...

great teams like the Wings, Sens, Canes, NYR and WIld are still in a playoff hunt... does your scenario apply to them too ?





All the Habs need for your 1st round scenario to happen is Vezina-Hart Price...

That isn't what he said. I believe @BaseballCoach was saying that we should be open to re-evaluating our strongly-held opinions if the reality proves to be different than we expected.

 

[Perrah]

I don't think Domi and Drouin are producing at an unsustainable pace.

Even if they settle into a 60-65pt pace, that's still pretty good and something to build on.

If you look at everything they have done in their career to date, it is a huge increase and you cant just assume it will replicate. Much like how people use to dispute Galchenyuk's 30 goal season. At this point these seasons would be the exception not the rule until proven otherwise. 60-65 points on the top line isn't any improvement over where the habs were prior to last season.

 

[Lshap]

I disagree with the more sustainable until players like Drouin and Domi prove they can reproduce what is being accomplished at the moment. If they dont produce at the same clip they are so far this year then the Habs are back to a team of 2 second lines instead of a first line.

I knew Domi was good. I didn't know he was this good. Maybe his pace is unsustainable, or maybe this young guy really is a star. Either way, what's already proved to be unsustainable is my (and others') opinion of him.

 

[417]

If you look at everything they have done in their career to date, it is a huge increase and you cant just assume it will replicate.

The Double D's have been producing at or near a PPG pace going back to 20ish games at the end of last year, coupled with the 30 they've played this year.

Smaller size samples were enough for folks to consider Galchenyuk a bonafide 30 goal #1C.

Why is it different now?

Much like how people use to dispute Galchenyuk's 30 goal season. At this point these seasons would be the exception not the rule until proven otherwise. 60-65 points on the top line isn't any improvement over where the habs were prior to last season.

Not a single player had 60pts last year on the Habs...

Never mind 2 of them.

 

[gillyguzzler]

Weber has been better than I expected after being off for so long. I had almost forgotten the impact he can have at both ends and on the physical side.

 

[1909]

Weber has been better than I expected after being off for so long. I had almost forgotten the impact he can have at both ends and on the physical side.

+ Habs have finaly a real Captain.

 

[Kriss E]

That isn't what he said. I believe @BaseballCoach was saying that we should be open to re-evaluating our strongly-held opinions if the reality proves to be different than we expected.

How did that work for us in 12-13 and moving forward?

The team is better than a lot of us thought. Great. That doesn't make them into contenders. Our defense is still pathetic, Price still is an issue. And if you're talking about becoming a contender in 2-3 years, where you want this sustained for an extra 3-4 years....well you need to plan for that. Don't get distracted because OMG..couple guys are better than we thought!
Especially considering we literally just went through it not too long ago.

 

[Perrah]

The Double D's have been producing at or near a PPG pace going back to 20ish games at the end of last year, coupled with the 30 they've played this year.

Smaller size samples were enough for folks to consider Galchenyuk a bonafide 30 goal #1C.

Why is it different now?


Not a single player had 60pts last year on the Habs...

Never mind 2 of them.

"... prior to last season."

Edit: How big of a sample size did galchenyuk go at a PPG clip? What happened there? Just because others called him a bonafide 30 goal scorer doesnt mean I did.

 

[417]

"... prior to last season."

Edit: How big of a sample size did galchenyuk go at a PPG clip? What happened there? Just because others called him a bonafide 30 goal scorer doesnt mean I did.

We'll see how Drouin and Domi play and produce the rest of the season.

But given they're depended on to produce and will be placed in situations to produce, I'll be surprised if their production drops off a cliff.

 

[417]

How did that work for us in 12-13 and moving forward?

The team is better than a lot of us thought. Great. That doesn't make them into contenders. Our defense is still pathetic, Price still is an issue. And if you're talking about becoming a contender in 2-3 years, where you want this sustained for an extra 3-4 years....well you need to plan for that. Don't get distracted because OMG..couple guys are better than we thought!
Especially considering we literally just went through it not too long ago.

Only issue with this is...

What can they do?

Tell Domi, Drouin, Gallgher, Tatar, Weber and Petry to stop playing well?

If this season ultimately ends with the Habs making the playoffs with these players, along with Kotkaniemi, Lehkonen, etc , all being driving forces.

I think that would be a wonderful development for this team.

The challenge will be for Bergevin not to get mesmerized by this, there's still lots of work to be done and squeezing into the playoffs shouldn't signify to him that they've arrived.

 

[Perrah]

I knew Domi was good. I didn't know he was this good. Maybe his pace is unsustainable, or maybe this young guy really is a star. Either way, what's already proved to be unsustainable is my (and others') opinion of him.

Indeed he has exceeded expectations, but planning for the future around those expectations requires repetition.

 

[Agalloch]

French article on Weber

CH: Shea Weber indispensable - TVA Sports

 

[Kriss E]

Only issue with this is...

What can they do?

Tell Domi, Drouin, Gallgher, Tatar, Weber and Petry to stop playing well?

If this season ultimately ends with the Habs making the playoffs with these players, along with Kotkaniemi, Lehkonen, etc , all being driving forces.

I think that would be a wonderful development for this team.

The challenge will be for Bergevin not to get mesmerized by this, there's still lots of work to be done and squeezing into the playoffs shouldn't signify to him that they've arrived.

They can trade Weber. Take it from there.
Lek as a driving force..ya, wake me up when that happens.

 

[417]

They can trade Weber. Take it from there.
Lek as a driving force..ya, wake me up when that happens.

I meant Lehkonen in conjunction with all the other players I mentioned.

I'm pretty sure you knew this.

You're in an ornery mood today I can see.

 

[BaseballCoach]

This is where we disagree. I think missing the POs and grabbing a top pick would be way more beneficial to us moving forward than if we made the POs this year.
I think making the POs would hurt us in the long game, like you can argue making the POs in 12-13 hurt us.
Difference between now and then is we were battling for the top spot in the East, our offense (not forwards) was producing 3.04 gpg vs 3.13 today, we also had two #1 Dmen on our team, one of which won the Norris that year. We were in a higher position and better equipped overall.
But knowing what unfolded, we would have been better to sell assets anyways and not get distracted by the improvement of our team along with making the POs..as I'm sure @417 would agree with here..
Let's not make the same mistake twice.

I hear you and understand your uneasiness with temporary improvement.

I personally think that the problem was that the 2012-13 improvement was not followed up properly, NOT that improvement was a bad thing per se.

Bergevin is not the right GM for the job, in my opinion. Letting him take the next steps is in my opinion "the mistake we should not make twice."

I was listening to TSN 690 this morning. One of the guests, a writer whose name was stated before I turned on the station, said that he asked Marc Bergevin in Toronto the day of the season opener if the team was doing well prior to the deadline, would he move away from the reset strategy and trade assets for short-term help. Bergevin did not say NO.

Ominous sign that he will not take the proper steps. Hopefully he is replaced, or his poor vision is overwhelmed by either his boss or the consensus of his staff.

Bergy scares me, truly.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

They can trade Weber. Take it from there.
Lek as a driving force..ya, wake me up when that happens.

I missed the pages about Weber being traded but I saw a very posts.

Realistically...what would he gather? My guess is whatever you think you'd be getting wouldn't be worth it unless you go full scale rebuild.

No bottom 5 teams are trading 1st round picks for a 33 year old d-man.

So it will just be late 1sts and stuff like that. Not terrible assets but unless we're going full scale rebuild I don't see the benefit.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I hear you and understand your uneasiness with temporary improvement.

I personally think that the problem was that the 2012-13 improvement was not followed up properly, NOT that improvement was a bad thing per se.

Bergevin is not the right GM for the job, in my opinion. Letting him take the next steps is in my opinion "the mistake we should not make twice."

I was listening to TSN 690 this morning. One of the guests, a writer whose name was stated before I turned on the station, said that he asked Marc Bergevin in Toronto the day of the season opener if the team was doing well prior to the deadline, would he move away from the reset strategy and trade assets for short-term help. Bergevin did not say NO.

Ominous sign that he will not take the proper steps. Hopefully he is replaced, or his poor vision is overwhelmed by either his boss or the consensus of his staff.

Bergy scares me, truly.

While I also think MB should be fired...when has he ever traded valuable assets for short term help?

Vanek? And a few of the 4th line acquisitions in King, Ott, etc...

Petry, Drouin, Weber etc... are all still here and don't classify as short term help.

It's much ado about nothing.

 

[Kriss E]

I missed the pages about Weber being traded but I saw a very posts.

Realistically...what would he gather? My guess is whatever you think you'd be getting wouldn't be worth it unless you go full scale rebuild.

No bottom 5 teams are trading 1st round picks for a 33 year old d-man.

So it will just be late 1sts and stuff like that. Not terrible assets but unless we're going full scale rebuild I don't see the benefit.

I'd be looking at Stl's top pick to pry from the Sabres, assuming it isn't protected.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Best part (one of them) about Weber is it allows Petry to slot into his rightful spot on the 2nd pairing. He's such a strong D-man on 2nd pair and just isn't quite good enough to be our 1D.

It's more than that. When we acquired Shea, it was explained that we wanted to change the style of the team to one where the D does not carry the puck, but that we move it quickly, that the puck moves faster than the players.

The problem is that Therrien did not know how to implement such an approach, he just had wingers go so far up ice that they were too often standing still, though it did get Patches a break now and then .

The Julien came in, and he was even worse at "the pace game". We actually regressed, did WORSE under Chu Rien than Té Rien.

This year, with Ducharme and Richardson coming in, and Muller being onside with the move the puck with pace approach, we are finally playing the way we were supposed to play when we got Shea Weber.

And Weber is fine in that style.