Shanahan is the puppet master

[Peasy]

Everyone forget about the SHANAPLAN?

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Everyone forget about the SHANAPLAN?

He did a masterful job getting us Matthews, we should’ve tossed him right after that for someone who knows how to run a successful (cup winning) franchise. We have a rookie president who hired a rookie GM who hired a rookie coach and we thought we were going all the way? f***ing joke

 

[ITM]

It was obvious from his hiring.

Do you think an ex-nhler wants the job to be a figurehead only (ribbon cuttings and PR events)?

Hiring Babs, Lou, Dubas, etc.

Dubas even was let go because he wanted more autonomy.

The best thing Shanny has done as far as can tell was he made himself insulated all this time.

Dubas was fired for an attempted power-grab from the man who gave him his NHL life on the basis of his (Shanahan's) faith in him (Dubas). The week that was Dubas' undoing and the relay of events, has to my knowledge, never been corrected by Dubas. And that speaks volumes in terms of his culpability.

"More autonomy" was leveraged publicly and in bad faith. That additional autonomy that you've cited, was part of Shanahan's role.

Dubas' definition of "more autonomy" included ignoring Shanahan's collegial advice, all but rejecting the once agreed upon contract, ignored repeated requests to talk and confirm said accepted contract, and then renegotiate through his agent...ONLY...to realize the mistakes that are red flags in any like situation.

The best thing Shanahan has done so far was bring in a new culture of winning to the point that constant 100-point seasons bore us, which not incidentally, included our organization's first Calder Cup. The next best thing after all of that -- which included getting best of the best management, including the shock of nabbing LL (and don't for a moment pretend like you didn't grow ten feet tall when you heard the news on the day) -- was righting another wrong, that he apparently didn't notice before.

But when he saw Dubas in a way that few of us did or could, he didn't puppet master a single minute. Not through back channels, not through text or email or phone. Nah. Shanahan took 24 hours from point of realization, let it all sink in, then drove to tell Dubas in person that he was done.

Where this notion that Shanahan is duplicitous or deceptive as a manager is beyond my ability to suspend disbelief.

He can't make our forwards grittier, take less money, score series winning goals or save soft series ending ones. He has to guide the club in modes of high-regular season achievement, and high post-season disappointment with the pieces we have and attempt to maintain the former just to have a chance at the latter.

Where better options exist, they are few and far between and not compelled to sign in Toronto. If he was a puppet master of any repute, then he would have signed our Big 3 to graduating contracts rather than publicly appeal to their (apparent?) sense of championship aspirations and personal sacrifice. But he's not, and he did.

It was Dubas who tried his hand at manipulation. The once rumoured and denied position with Pittsburgh was eventually taken when Dubas' agent couldn't use it as leverage in for a piece of Shanahan's seat.

If anything, Shanahan used his position to insulate Dubas. And when Dubas turned on him and asked for the very shield that cultivated his entire professional career that but for Shanahan's faith would have never happened, Shanahan remembered that a shield is also a weapon when needed.

 

[francis246]

Dubas was fired for an attempted power-grab from the man who gave him his NHL life on the basis of his (Shanahan's) faith in him (Dubas). The week that was Dubas' undoing and the relay of events, has to my knowledge, never been corrected by Dubas. And that speaks volumes in terms of his culpability.

"More autonomy" was leveraged publicly and in bad faith. That additional autonomy that you've cited, was part of Shanahan's role.

Dubas' definition of "more autonomy" included ignoring Shanahan's collegial advice, all but rejecting the once agreed upon contract, ignored repeated requests to talk and confirm said accepted contract, and then renegotiate through his agent...ONLY...to realize the mistakes that are red flags in any like situation.

The best thing Shanahan has done so far was bring in a new culture of winning to the point that constant 100-point seasons bore us, which not incidentally, included our organization's first Calder Cup. The next best thing after all of that -- which included getting best of the best management, including the shock of nabbing LL (and don't for a moment pretend like you didn't grow ten feet tall when you heard the news on the day) -- was righting another wrong, that he apparently didn't notice before.

But when he saw Dubas in a way that few of us did or could, he didn't puppet master a single minute. Not through back channels, not through text or email or phone. Nah. Shanahan took 24 hours from point of realization, let it all sink in, then drove to tell Dubas in person that he was done.

Where this notion that Shanahan is duplicitous or deceptive as a manager is beyond my ability to suspend disbelief.

He can't make our forwards grittier, take less money, score series winning goals or save soft series ending ones. He has to guide the club in modes of high-regular season achievement, and high post-season disappointment with the pieces we have and attempt to maintain the former just to have a chance at the latter.

Where better options exist, they are few and far between and not compelled to sign in Toronto. If he was a puppet master of any repute, then he would have signed our Big 3 to graduating contracts rather than publicly appeal to their (apparent?) sense of championship aspirations and personal sacrifice. But he's not, and he did.

It was Dubas who tried his hand at manipulation. The once rumoured and denied position with Pittsburgh was eventually taken when Dubas' agent couldn't use it as leverage in for a piece of Shanahan's seat.

If anything, Shanahan used his position to insulate Dubas. And when Dubas turned on him and asked for the very shield that cultivated his entire professional career that but for Shanahan's faith would have never happened, Shanahan remembered that a shield is also a weapon when needed.

For me it stems from who do we think agreed to let Dubas sign those post ELC deals? Trade those first rounders and ect? Shanny could have and should have put a stop to that immediately. I didn’t love Dubas but it’s also kind of crazy and convenient for Shanny that he (Dubas) gets 100% of the blame for that when Shanny had to sign off on all 3 deals. Where was the energy of everyone has to take less. He completely folded a few months later and signed off on them getting paid. That was the beginning of the end.

Shanny is as much to blame as Dubas is IMO for the state of the organization.


From that standpoint I understand where Dubas is coming from. He’s getting crushed in the media for all these decisions. But he has someone above him approving all these decisions and not catching a single bullet for it. I also don’t believe for a second that Dubas woke up one day and said I’m going to make a power play for Shanny’s job (while it is plausible and maybe he did). My gut (which could be totally wrong) says that there were contentious moments between them behind the scenes leading to Dubas feeling he needed to make a power play to do his job. Like you said, Shanny helped put Dubas in a great position and helped build his career, do you honestly believe he would turn on him for no reason at all? Just out of pure self-ambition? I don’t see that, sorry.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Dubas was fired for an attempted power-grab from the man who gave him his NHL life on the basis of his (Shanahan's) faith in him (Dubas). The week that was Dubas' undoing and the relay of events, has to my knowledge, never been corrected by Dubas. And that speaks volumes in terms of his culpability.

"More autonomy" was leveraged publicly and in bad faith. That additional autonomy that you've cited, was part of Shanahan's role.

Dubas' definition of "more autonomy" included ignoring Shanahan's collegial advice, all but rejecting the once agreed upon contract, ignored repeated requests to talk and confirm said accepted contract, and then renegotiate through his agent...ONLY...to realize the mistakes that are red flags in any like situation.

The best thing Shanahan has done so far was bring in a new culture of winning to the point that constant 100-point seasons bore us, which not incidentally, included our organization's first Calder Cup. The next best thing after all of that -- which included getting best of the best management, including the shock of nabbing LL (and don't for a moment pretend like you didn't grow ten feet tall when you heard the news on the day) -- was righting another wrong, that he apparently didn't notice before.

But when he saw Dubas in a way that few of us did or could, he didn't puppet master a single minute. Not through back channels, not through text or email or phone. Nah. Shanahan took 24 hours from point of realization, let it all sink in, then drove to tell Dubas in person that he was done.

Where this notion that Shanahan is duplicitous or deceptive as a manager is beyond my ability to suspend disbelief.

He can't make our forwards grittier, take less money, score series winning goals or save soft series ending ones. He has to guide the club in modes of high-regular season achievement, and high post-season disappointment with the pieces we have and attempt to maintain the former just to have a chance at the latter.

Where better options exist, they are few and far between and not compelled to sign in Toronto. If he was a puppet master of any repute, then he would have signed our Big 3 to graduating contracts rather than publicly appeal to their (apparent?) sense of championship aspirations and personal sacrifice. But he's not, and he did.

It was Dubas who tried his hand at manipulation. The once rumoured and denied position with Pittsburgh was eventually taken when Dubas' agent couldn't use it as leverage in for a piece of Shanahan's seat.

If anything, Shanahan used his position to insulate Dubas. And when Dubas turned on him and asked for the very shield that cultivated his entire professional career that but for Shanahan's faith would have never happened, Shanahan remembered that a shield is also a weapon when needed.

Ok. So what are you arguing?

 

[hamzarocks]

We don't know what they base his performance on. I'd be surprised if the Board wouldn't fire him if they found him underperforming.

The board was willing to extend Dubas for another 4 or 5 years before he made his power move

The board is happy as long as money is being made and fans keep on filling up seats

Fans want to see the team win after a near decade of little success with Shanny.

His seat has to be getting hot if we dont progress further than last year this season

 

[myleafs]

He did a masterful job getting us Matthews, we should’ve tossed him right after that for someone who knows how to run a successful (cup winning) franchise. We have a rookie president who hired a rookie GM who hired a rookie coach and we thought we were going all the way? f***ing joke

When you put it like that its hard to imagine what he was thinking. Went from the most established hockey people like Lou and Babs to the least established in a blink of the eye. Very strange indeed to do such a massive about face.

 

[GoonieFace]

When you put it like that its hard to imagine what he was thinking. Went from the most established hockey people like Lou and Babs to the least established in a blink of the eye. Very strange indeed to do such a massive about face.

He got conned by a conman, he fell for the Dube. He finally realized his mistake when Dubas suggested the Jarry contract for Samsonov…

 

[ITM]

Ok. So what are you arguing?

That its untenable to argue that Shanahan has been deceptive or duplicitous in his operations. Even the implication that Dubas wanted more autonomy has a sense of accusation that Shanahan acted improperly by declining the move.

It wasn't simply that Dubas wanted more autonomy, he wanted part of Shanahan's, and that's an obvious non-starter. Moreover given the dynamic of Dubas' continued increase in autonomy at the direction of Shanahan.

 

[theTTC]

I’ve said it before I think Shanny has done well bridging the gap between the alumni and the community among other things. So from a business standpoint I think they feel he’s done fine. I don’t know what they feel about the on ice product

The on-ice product? Who in corporate head office or the government cares about that?

The game is the clickbait. The real products are commercial marketing and the culture-changing narrative on CBC.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

That its untenable to argue that Shanahan has been deceptive or duplicitous in his operations. Even the implication that Dubas wanted more autonomy has a sense of accusation that Shanahan acted improperly by declining the move.

It wasn't simply that Dubas wanted more autonomy, he wanted part of Shanahan's, and that's an obvious non-starter. Moreover given the dynamic of Dubas' continued increase in autonomy at the direction of Shanahan.

No. I never said that Shanny acted improperly. I'm only saying Shanny has been insulated.

Kyle got let go for other reasons. In my opinion probably was misguided by his agent.

 

[FerrisRox]

You have Dubas anecdotes, you have a million podcasts you can listen to that speak to the power struggle between Dubas and Shanahan throughout the summer. Also Sean Avery on the JD Bunkis podcast last week or two weeks ago pretty much confirmed this as well. Again I’ll preface by saying a lot of it is hearsay, no way to definitively know. But it is pointing towards Shanny having his hand involved more in the more recent years.

So, just to be clear, you "don't know what more proof people need" and you also don't have any proof at all?

 

[FerrisRox]

The board was willing to extend Dubas for another 4 or 5 years before he made his power move

I'm far from being a fan of Kyle Dubas, but I think it's really unfair to claim he made "a power move" or betrayed Brendan Shanahan as I've seen suggested in this thread as well.

If Dubas did make a move for more autonomy it really isn't a power move, he's merely looking for what almost every other General Manger in every other market already has. He's not asking for more power, he's asking for the power that his peers already have.

 

[Buds17]

A franchise should obviously value input to some extent once they decide to hire a President Of Hockey Operations that previously played in the NHL (and is also in the HHOF). Furthermore, in addition to laying blame for any faults, we'd also have to credit said individual for any positives (trades, playoff wins, etc.) as well, no?

 

[rumman]

For me the biggest proof is the situation with Kyle itself. I think the narrative was spun brilliantly by Shanny in his presser to make it seem like it was only a power play by Dubas and he’s innocent in it all lol.

I have to admit that was a masterclass press conference by Shanny

Shanahan might be the devil, but seeing him pull the rug out from Boy Wonder was for me the highlight of last season, only better ending would be to win the cup and we all knew that wasn’t happening……..

 

[egd27]

Yup, I don’t know how it can’t be any clearer. Shanny is 100% making the decisions.

I don’t know what more proof people need.

Getting big failed joke vibes with your post.

You have Dubas anecdotes, you have a million podcasts you can listen to that speak to the power struggle between Dubas and Shanahan throughout the summer. Also Sean Avery on the JD Bunkis podcast last week or two weeks ago pretty much confirmed this as well. Again I’ll preface by saying a lot of it is hearsay, no way to definitively know. But it is pointing towards Shanny having his hand involved more in the more recent years.

Yup I mentioned the hearsay part in my post.

I mean he’s the president he says yes or no. At the end of the day. So he kind of is making the final decisions.

I do believe he has been heavily involved in the player personnel department. Just from everything I’ve listened to, read up on regarding the situation, more so in the last year leading up to Dubas’ departure.

So your position is that Shanahan is 100% making the decisions, kind of, or at least you believe he has been heavily involved in the player personnel department. Ok then

 

[rumman]

I'm far from being a fan of Kyle Dubas, but I think it's really unfair to claim he made "a power move" or betrayed Brendan Shanahan as I've seen suggested in this thread as well.

If Dubas did make a move for more autonomy it really isn't a power move, he's merely looking for what almost every other General Manger in every other market already has. He's not asking for more power, he's asking for the power that his peers already have.

Boy Wonder’s whole season ending presser was a pressure move, what he didn’t realize is even with 34, 16, and 88’s contracts needing addressing I bet he never thought they wouldn’t have to hire him because bringing in a new GM with so little time to sort these things out would be unthinkable, well that was a huge arrogant assumption imo………

Everyone forget about the SHANAPLAN?

Wasn’t that to be cup competitive year in, year out? An oldie but a goody……..

 

[myleafs]

Shanahan might be the devil, but seeing him pull the rug out from Boy Wonder was for me the highlight of last season, only better ending would be to win the cup and we all knew that wasn’t happening……..

Shanny to me seemed genuinely caught off guard by whatever Dubas was trying to do I tend to agree more with Shannys version and thought he handled the situation appropriately.

In saying all that I believed in the Shanaplan when he showed up on the scene but Ive had a slow drip of not believing in his vision over the last few years and if the leafs dont show improvement this year when it matters I think it might be time to move on....in more ways than one.

 

[rumman]

Shanny to me seemed genuinely caught off guard by whatever Dubas was trying to do I tend to agree more with Shannys version and thought he handled the situation appropriately.

In saying all that I believed in the Shanaplan when he showed up on the scene but Ive had a slow drip of not believing in his vision over the last few years and if the leafs dont show improvement this year when it matters I think it might be time to move on....in more ways than one.

I bought into the Shanaplan too, you’d think I’d know better, I also thought Burkie would be good, another disappointment. At this juncture I feel like Charlie Brown and MLSE is Lucy holding a football…….

 

[hamzarocks]

I'm far from being a fan of Kyle Dubas, but I think it's really unfair to claim he made "a power move" or betrayed Brendan Shanahan as I've seen suggested in this thread as well.

If Dubas did make a move for more autonomy it really isn't a power move, he's merely looking for what almost every other General Manger in every other market already has. He's not asking for more power, he's asking for the power that his peers already have.

He wanted to be president and be the highest chain of command for the org outside of owners/BOD/CEO

He got that in Pittsburgh.

He had the power to build his team, he made the signings, trades with Shanahan doing whatever a normal president of hockey OPs does

Both should have been fired after half a decade wasted

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Cause you didn't get the reference? Okay.

You said that Shanny is 100% making the decisions which implies that it's all up to him, not that he is just involved. And everything you just listed off is hearsay.

Do I think he's involved? Yes. Too much? Maybe. Does he make 100% of the decisions? No lol.

You mean your reference to something that has been proven undisputedly true? So what was your point exactly?

 

[Stephen]

The dead giveaway that Shanahan is in charge of the on ice product is the job title… You know, president.

 

[WillyC]

Something I still can’t wrap my head around… the whole Dubas almost getting extended, the press conferences from both Dubas and Shanny… Pittsburgh in waiting?

After that shit show… I’d of terminated both of them.

We’re talking an organization worth billions.

 

[darrylsittler27]

There is no Shanaplan. This team is getting worse as the stars age. They are barely in a playoff spot and looked bored already. The organization is a total joke. Any fan could win one round in 5 years. Regular season means nothing when you keep vanishing when the games matter in the playoffs. By the end of this season it will be situation critical. They will bring in a new coach and try and re ship the same junk again. Many cant see it but this franchise will be in big trouble soon. People are losing interest and patience. Marner looks like junk and isnt worth re signing, he will probably demand 12 Million which we cant even pay Nylander. On top of that they have no picks in 2025. After this year there will be no saving the Shanaplan which will crumble like the junk it is. They paid 4 guys too much, now the rest of the team is just useless parts along for the ride.

 

[BallardEra]